What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

[eXode]

Since I would have guessed an all-digital instrument and we've been told that will definitely not be the case, I truly have no idea what DSI will be giving us next.  But I'll be equally interested to see the size/length of it.  I expect that DSI will continue the keyboard-module pairing of instruments, but will the keyboard versions resume the "normative" five-octave size?  And will DSI ever surpass the Prophet 12?  I'm hoping for two affirmatives.  It would be fabulous to see them outdo themselves with a large-scale analog poly synth.  Anything less has little interest to me.  I haven't taken to the digital imitations of analog instruments these past few years.  They've been interesting but disappointing in tonal quality.  Plus, I'd love to see DSI offer Modal Electronics a little competition at more reasonable prices.

It is what it is - but I'd lie if I said that I didn't wish that the Prophet 12 had at least 2 DCO's.

[Paul Dither]

Perhaps it'll be a CS-6 based on the CS-60, or a Sub Six based on the Sub Phatty.

Theoretically they could, but they won't. Dave already answered that question in this interview:

[Sacred Synthesis]

This is the very theme of this thread, and the whole question continues to be intriguing, in part, because DSI tends to be unpredictable.  I'd say "whimsical" is the word.  I'd like to think that things will follow a logical course and the Prophet '08 will truly be replaced by a worthy successor, but with Dave, you just can't know.  If the P'08 is retired and we have nothing to choose from but smaller analogs or bigger digitals, then some of us with aging instruments who would like to refresh their set ups will have a dilemma.  I only hope the DCO or VCO full-sized stacking/layering poly synth makes a return to DSI.  It's been a while.

[Paul Dither]

Since I would have guessed an all-digital instrument and we've been told that will definitely not be the case, I truly have no idea what DSI will be giving us next.  But I'll be equally interested to see the size/length of it.  I expect that DSI will continue the keyboard-module pairing of instruments, but will the keyboard versions resume the "normative" five-octave size?  And will DSI ever surpass the Prophet 12?  I'm hoping for two affirmatives.  It would be fabulous to see them outdo themselves with a large-scale analog poly synth.  Anything less has little interest to me.  I haven't taken to the digital imitations of analog instruments these past few years.  They've been interesting but disappointing in tonal quality.  Plus, I'd love to see DSI offer Modal Electronics a little competition at more reasonable prices.

But they won't do the "can do it all" synth, if that's what you mean by outdoing themselves. That has never been the philosophy. And the only serious competition for the 002 does already exist in the shape of the Prophet 12. They're not comparable with regard to sound nor features, and don't need to be, but they are the only exciting new poly hybrids out there.

I don't think the Prophet 12 will be replaced - or surpassed for that matter - anytime soon. It's still too young. And not that DSI are going to wait for it, but I always get the impression that the Prophet 12 and the Pro 2 are a bit under-appreciated and not fully understood by many yet. If that would be the case, people would stop comparing them to full analog synths.

[Paul Dither]

This is the very theme of this thread, and the whole question continues to be intriguing, in part, because DSI tends to be unpredictable.  I'd say "whimsical" is the word.  I'd like to think that things will follow a logical course and the Prophet '08 will truly be replaced by a worthy successor, but with Dave, you just can't know.  If the P'08 is retired and we have nothing to choose from but smaller analogs or bigger digitals, then some of us with aging instruments who would like to refresh their set ups will have a dilemma.  I only hope the DCO or VCO full-sized stacking/layering poly synth makes a return to DSI.  It's been a while.

But you can already stack or layer a Prophet-6 and a Prophet-6 module, an OB-6 and an OB-6 module, or a Prophet-6 and an OB-6. And if they would do an equivalent to this in one box, the price might even end up being quite similar, or at least in the 008 region. Plus: I don't think it would be an exciting outlook for DSI to design such an instrument just for the sake of adding a couple of more LFOs and maybe one extra envelope in the end. There's just too much of the same in that equation. Before they started to develop the Prophet-6, the goal was simply to design a VCO-based poly synth, and since that task has been fullfilled twice by now with two variations for each, I would assume that this door will remain closed for a while. Except, of course, DSI think that it won't a big deal to expand their product range into the $5,000 price range. But even then, the outlook of designing something quite similar to what has been designed already not so long ago, is not really compelling from a developer's perspective. Knowing that they have all kinds of still unrealized ideas, puts such an endeavor back at the end of the waiting line.

[Sacred Synthesis]

But they won't do the "can do it all" synth, if that's what you mean by outdoing themselves. That has never been the philosophy. And the only serious competition for the 002 does already exist in the shape of the Prophet 12. They're not comparable with regard to sound nor features, and don't need to be, but they are the only exciting new poly hybrids out there.

I don't think the Prophet 12 will be replaced - or surpassed for that matter - anytime soon. It's still too young. And not that DSI are going to wait for it, but I always get the impression that the Prophet 12 and the Pro 2 are a bit under-appreciated and not fully understood by many yet. If that would be the case, people would stop comparing them to full analog synths.

As you know, Paul, I have no interest in the do-it-all type synthesizer.  I'm only thinking of an enlarged Prophet '08 that would strike close to the Prophet 12 zone, at least in price.  That's my main interest. 

As for the Pro 2 and Prophet 12 being misunderstood - that may be the case with some folks, but there are many of us who simply are not satisfied with the sound.  I don't think this requires an apology, since it's admittedly a matter of personal taste and should not be interpreted as an insult or snobbery.  It's not that we compare the P2 and P12 to full analog synths, but that those two instruments are unavoidable reference points or standards, due to the facts that they exist and are popular.  We're trying to speak in terms other than vintage instruments.  So, to put it in modern terms, I would love to see an all-analog instrument the same size as the P12.   I'd actually be quite happy with a four-DCO P'08 with a few additional features.  That's all I'm hoping for these days.

[eXode]

Perhaps it'll be a CS-6 based on the CS-60, or a Sub Six based on the Sub Phatty.

Theoretically they could, but they won't. Dave already answered that question in this interview:

Yeah, I already figured that they wouldn't do a Moog at least. I wouldn't be surprised if Moog will offer something themselves eventually.

[Sacred Synthesis]

But you can already stack or layer a Prophet-6 and a Prophet-6 module, an OB-6 and an OB-6 module, or a Prophet-6 and an OB-6.

No, it's not even close.  You know that.  The Prophet '08 is far superior in various ways.  I could never get out of a P-6 keyboard-module pair what I can get out of a P'08 keyboard-module pair, and that's not even to get into the keyboard length issue.  It's not even close, which is why I was contemplating a P-6 as a monophonic instrument - which would admittedly be absurd.  I would admit that the P-6 has the superior analog sound and some other features as well, but for me, the advantages cannot compensate for the losses.

[Paul Dither]

As you know, Paul, I have no interest in the do-it-all type synthesizer.  I'm only thinking of an enlarged Prophet '08 that would strike close to the Prophet 12 zone, at least in price.  That's my main interest.

Based on DCOs that might be possible. But then again, it rather looks to me that the DCO machines will not get direct successors, now that DSI have developed their own VCO voice cards. And as we all know, everything VCO has a higher appeal to the analog audience than anything DCO-related - at least if you exclude the entry level market.

As for the Pro 2 and Prophet 12 being misunderstood - that may be the case with some folks, but there are others of us who simply are not satisfied with the sound.  I don't think this requires an apology.  It's not that we compare the P2 and P12 to full analog synths, but that they are unavoidable reference points or standards, due to the facts that they exist and are popular.  We're trying to speak in terms other than vintage instruments.

But here's the point about the Pro 2 and the Prophet 12: They just don't want to be compared to all-analog instruments in the first place. They're much too flexible to step in for just that. Of course, you can make them sound analog-like, but that's just as if you'd buy a Ferrari just to get from A to B. Plus: They're best at producing sounds you can't do with analog synths. They're basically synths for tweakers and everybody who's into deep sound design. And it's of course absolutely okay if one doesn't like them, but the whole discussion about them having to have added DCOs or VCOs misses the point in my opinion. Another problem is that there are quite a few people amongts those who criticise these synths, who have never played one in person. So there's also a heavily biased discussion - just as biased as certain discussions about the Prophet '08 elsewhere I might add.

[Paul Dither]

But you can already stack or layer a Prophet-6 and a Prophet-6 module, an OB-6 and an OB-6 module, or a Prophet-6 and an OB-6.

No, it's not even close.  You know that.  The Prophet '08 is far superior in various ways.  I could never get out of a P-6 keyboard-module pair what I can get out of a P'08 keyboard-module pair, and that's not even to get into the keyboard length issue.  It's not even close, which is why I was contemplating a P-6 as a monophonic instrument - which would admittedly be absurd.  I would admit that the P-6 has the superior analog sound and some other features as well, but for me, the advantages cannot compensate for the losses.

I can't confirm whether it would not come even close or not, since the PolyMod section turned out to be able to lead to quite a variety of sounds. So I'd call it a different experience, but not necessarily one that offers less tonal flexibility and control.

Plus: I couldn't easily say whether the Prophet '08 is superior. It appears superior on paper and with regard to its quantitiy of features. In practice, though, I can achieve a variety of different sounds much quicker on the Prophet-6 due to its interface and also its limitations, which in turn saves me a lot of time. The Prophet '08 on the other hand offers more control options and is also bi-timbral. So basically, it's a matter of priorities, but certainly nothing that can be decided the quick and easy way.

In the end, they are also only comparable to a certain degree, since they don't only offer a different set of features, but also sound different.

[Paul Dither]

Perhaps it'll be a CS-6 based on the CS-60, or a Sub Six based on the Sub Phatty.

Theoretically they could, but they won't. Dave already answered that question in this interview:

Yeah, I already figured that they wouldn't do a Moog at least. I wouldn't be surprised if Moog will offer something themselves eventually.

Not sure, if there's ever going to be another Moog poly synth though.

[DavidDever]

The Prophet '08 is far superior in various ways.  I could never get out of a P-6 keyboard-module pair what I can get out of a P'08 keyboard-module pair, and that's not even to get into the keyboard length issue.  It's not even close, which is why I was contemplating a P-6 as a monophonic instrument - which would admittedly be absurd.  I would admit that the P-6 has the superior analog sound and some other features as well, but for me, the advantages cannot compensate for the losses.

To wit - I was working with my KiwiTechnics-upgraded JX-3P last night; the biggest advantage (to my ears, anyway) that it provides is precisely the thing that SS identifies above: the ability to utilize a decent number of modulation routings to create voices that breathe, bubble, live within the mix and under your fingers. (The stock JX-3P had exactly one envelope, one LFO, no aftertouch or velocity support; the Kiwi-3P has 2 envelopes / two LFOs / multiple modulation routings.)

The recurring issue I have with a purchase of one of the *-6 units is that they are (necessarily) limited by the one-knob-per-function philosophy–great for quick-dive live or session use, but not deep enough compared to the four LFOs and three envelopes of the Prophet '08 / Mopho / Tetra. One LFO is insufficient for a professional-level synthesizer, full stop. The alternative is to move up into the hybrid Pro*-*2 models, which admittedly have a different aim in terms of sound, but have functionality and modulation routings in spades.

Thing is–I don't expect DSI to deliver a top-end, VCO-based polysynth any time soon (yes, I too would love to have layer / split capability as well). But let's just lay this out there: it would need to have at least eight (4+4) voices, a mod matrix, multiple envelopes, likely two filters (one with resonant HPF capability), a minimum level of effects (quad delays) and a sequencer that would provide parameter automation* in a manner similar to that of the Pro-2.

It would also need room to grow in terms of program RAM and flash storage. Oh-and 61 keys, too. 

* - yes, I realize that some things could be done with repeating envelopes and a random LFO, though that takes you far beyond the current Prophet-6 / OB-6 spec for sure.

[Paul Dither]

So, to put it in modern terms, I would love to see an all-analog instrument the same size as the P12.   I'd actually be quite happy with a four-DCO P'08 with a few additional features.  That's all I'm hoping for these days.

But the latter can already be achieved - and you've set things up just like that - by adding a Prophet '08 module to the keyboard without poly-chaining both.

I'm just slightly bewildered by the tone of mourning with regard to the Prophet '08. The synth is not dead or discontinued yet, and even if it would be discontinued in the nearest future, we all know that DSI wouldn't drop their support for it in case anything goes wrong with an individual unit. It's not that everything would be cut immediately. You can still even buy Evolver PE conversion kits. So as long as the Prophet '08 is the perfect instrument for you, why does it even matter whether there's going to be a direct replacement? - It's an honest question and not meant to be provocative.

[LoboLives]

I'd still love to see a VCO based double keyboard synth where you can split and layer patches. Like an updated Prophet 10. I know I know...but would it really be difficult for them to just take a double keyboard with two modules on top and somehow figure out how to split and layer the patches...perhaps a switch which automatically polychains the modules? I'm sure you can DIY...although the Hammond/organ style Midi controllers have no modulation/pitch wheels.

[Sacred Synthesis]

I guess I need to qualify my statements.  When I say the Prophet '08 is "superior" to the Prophet-6, I'm speaking specifically of my individual needs.  As I've said before, I don't want to follow a synthesizer, I want to lead it.  Meaning, I want to have a generous supply of synthesizer fundamentals so that, when I'm designing sounds and composing music, I'm provided with the tools that will fulfill the moment's musical needs.  In such moments, I don't want to be experimenting with features in the hopes of stumbling across something interesting, and I certainly don't want to be using the instrument as a source of inspiration.  No, it works the other way around, so I want to have a set of basic necessary tools by which I can bring to life what I can already hear in my mind.  Simply, the Prophet '08 provides very well for this; the Prophet-6, in spite of its own various strengths, could not.  Each instrument offers a particular set of tools, and that set belonging to the P'08 works best for me.

As for the Prophet 12, I realize folks don't like to hear some of us say that it doesn't do analog well enough.  But it's long been advertised as a bit of everything, and many owners claim that it sounds every bit as analog as the Prophet '08.  I've read this a hundred times.  So, the "misunderstanding" is understandable.  My personal preference would have been that, if the P12 is digital, then let it be exceptional at digital; if it is analog, then let it be exceptional at analog.  But it's a hybrid, so should we expect the mixed results?  Personally, I don't think so, since the Poly Evolver's analog side still sounds far preferable to my ears than does that of the the P12.  And that's based on the available video demonstrations compared side by side. 

[LoboLives]

Perhaps...Dave is bringing a separate sequencer out? Like the old Sequential Programmers?

[eXode]

As for the Prophet 12, I realize folks don't like to hear some of us say that it doesn't do analog well enough.  But it's long been advertised as a bit of everything, and many owners claim that it sounds every bit as analog as the Prophet '08.  I've read this a hundred times.  So, the "misunderstanding" is understandable.  My personal preference would have been that, if the P12 is digital, then let it be exceptional at digital; if it is analog, then let it be exceptional at analog.  But it's a hybrid, so should we should the mixed results?  Personally, I don't think so, since the Poly Evolver's analog side still sounds far preferable to my ears than does that of the the P12.  And that's based on the available video demonstrations compared side by side.

Didn't the Prophet 12 even use the "synth on a chip" for the LPF and AMP? So the foundation for the DCO's are there, just not utilized?

My own disappointment with the omission of analog oscillators is partly because the Prophet 12 could have been a monstrous spiritual successor, or younger brother if you will, to the Poly Evolver.

[DavidDever]

Didn't the Prophet 12 even use the "synth on a chip" for the LPF and AMP? So the foundation for the DCO's are there, just not utilized?

My own disappointment with the omission of analog oscillators is partly because the Prophet 12 could have been a monstrous spiritual successor, or younger brother if you will, to the Poly Evolver.

IIRC, use of the onboard waveshapers would have precluded use of the pre-filter character section for the DCOs (on-DSP, pre-DAC)

[Sacred Synthesis]

As for the Prophet 12, I realize folks don't like to hear some of us say that it doesn't do analog well enough.  But it's long been advertised as a bit of everything, and many owners claim that it sounds every bit as analog as the Prophet '08.  I've read this a hundred times.  So, the "misunderstanding" is understandable.  My personal preference would have been that, if the P12 is digital, then let it be exceptional at digital; if it is analog, then let it be exceptional at analog.  But it's a hybrid, so should we should the mixed results?  Personally, I don't think so, since the Poly Evolver's analog side still sounds far preferable to my ears than does that of the the P12.  And that's based on the available video demonstrations compared side by side.

Didn't the Prophet 12 even use the "synth on a chip" for the LPF and AMP? So the foundation for the DCO's are there, just not utilized?

My own disappointment with the omission of analog oscillators is partly because the Prophet 12 could have been a monstrous spiritual successor, or younger brother if you will, to the Poly Evolver.

I was all in for the Prophet 12 from the start.  I didn't have some sort of a prejudice against it.  No, I was cheering from the bleachers as it was about to be released.  So, my eventual opinion of its sound was a terrible personal disappointment.  The instrument still interests me, but not rationally.  Therefore, I'm looking to the future in hopes of an instrument that will fill the P12 spot - which, by the way, was originally an Andromeda A6 spot. 

As for the discontinuation of the Prophet '08, I think it's a legitimate concern based on its age as well as the retiring of the other older and closely related DSI pieces.  Years ago on the other forum, I was getting a sense that the Poly Evolver would soon be discontinued and was posting about it.  Others complained about such doom and gloom...and then one day the PEK was unexpectedly retired.  It happens and it can really ruin your day and future plans.

[Paul Dither]

I guess I need to qualify my statements.  When I say the Prophet '08 is "superior" to the Prophet-6, I'm speaking specifically of my individual needs.  As I've said before, I don't want to follow a synthesizer, I want to lead it.  Meaning, I want to have a generous supply of synthesizer fundamentals so that, when I'm designing sounds and composing music, I'm provided with the tools that will fulfill the moment's musical needs.  In such moments, I don't want to be experimenting with features in the hopes of stumbling across something interesting.  No, I want to have a set of basic necessary tools by which I can bring to life what I can already hear in my mind.  Simply, the Prophet '08 provides very well for this; the Prophet-6, in spite of its own various strengths, could not.  Each instrument offers a particular set of tools, and that set belonging to the P'08 works best for me.

You don't need to qualify your statements. You've clearly pointed out what you like about the Prophet '08. That was not really my question. I was just asking what makes it so urgent to ask for a successor if the Prophet '08 is already working well - especially since it's still around.

In all fairness I have to say, though, that one can ultimately only come to the conclusion whether an instrument would work for someone or not, if one actually tried to work with it. At least as long as it's not about questions like "do I need a sampler," or "do I need an analog synth."

As for the Prophet 12, I realize folks don't like to hear some of us say that it doesn't do analog well enough.  But it's long been advertised as a bit of everything, and many owners claim that it sounds every bit as analog as the Prophet '08.  I've read this a hundred times.  So, the "misunderstanding" is understandable.  My personal preference would have been that, if the P12 is digital, then let it be exceptional at digital; if it is analog, then let it be exceptional at analog.  But it's a hybrid, so should we should the mixed results?  Personally, I don't think so, since the Poly Evolver's analog side still sounds far preferable to my ears than does that of the the P12.  And that's based on the available video demonstrations compared side by side.

But the Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12 and not meant to be either a second Poly Evolver or a surrogate for the Prophet '08. Being a hybrid synth it doesn't indicate that it needs to sound exactly like any fully analog synth by definition. In fact, one could ask, why it should excel at analog sounds in the first place, because if it was meant to do so, it would have been released with the according oscillators anyway. So I couldn't even understand those who would be offended by those people who are saying that it doesn't sound analog enough.

On the other hand, the Prophet 12 gives you the option to emulate the drift and imprecision of true analog oscillators by modulating the waveshapes and/or the oscillators' frequency in subtle ways or by adding slop, which has a much further range than that of the Prophet '08. It's then another thing if one doesn't appreciate the tonal character that is transported by the sound of the oscillators themselves. In that case, one might look for a fully analog instrument then that meets those standards, be it vintage or new.