Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback

Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« on: October 07, 2022, 04:00:45 PM »
Thanks for the update (Prophet 5 & 10 Main OS 2.0.4 and Panel OS 1.1.3).

Here are some observations:

Quote
- New Feature: Adjustable Velocity and Aftertouch Amounts per patch
Judging by ear, the new Velocity Amount parameter works by scaling the amplitude of the envelope based on the received velocity value. In other words the envelope is getting shallower the lower the Velocity Amount is set. As a result with Velocity Amount set fairly low the filter envelope barely opens. In addition the output volume of presets with low Velocity Amount settings are fairly low. Often the main volume pot isn’t able to compensate for the volume drop (and of course the main volume can’t be saved with the preset).

I’m wondering… what if the new ‘Velocity Amount’ parameter is interpreted / implemented as a ‘Velocity Sensitivity’ parameter instead? In this approach the velocities values are processed - not the envelope. Lowering the Velocity Amount could for example process the incoming velocity data with an increasing logarithmic function thus the response to velocity is getting less and less noticeable. One could argue that this is very similar to what the global Keyboard Vel Response parameter is doing. However with 128 values the ‘Velocity Amount’ parameter allows for much finer adjustments. It also reacts to external MIDI Note messages and more importantly it can be stored per preset.

In my view replacing the current ‘Velocity Amount’ with a ‘Velocity Sensitivity’ parameter has a couple of advantages:
- The filter Envelope Amount as set on the P5/10 is preserved. As a result the programmed cutoff frequency can still be reached
- The Amp output isn’t dropping in volume as much
- Consequently switching Velocity On / Off doesn’t change the sound as much overall
- Likewise preset without velocity can be changed to respond to velocity with only small filter and amp adjustments to compensate for the change of sound at lower Velocity Amount settings
- Arguably… playing the keyboard dynamically with lower Velocity Amount (Sensitivity) settings sound more “musical” in comparison (personal perception)

Possibly my thinking above is flawed… nevertheless it would be interesting to hear your opinion.

Quote
- Changed Feature: Adjust balance between programs in a split/stack by holding PRESET and  turning the volume pot. Volume pot centered is equal volume on both patches.
The new implementation allows to easily balance the volume levels of split and stack sounds. However there is also a small drawback:

In the previous OS you could hold the velocity button and program a discrete volume level per stacked/split preset. While undocumented this parameter also worked with “regular” presets without being in stack or split mode. So I used this feature to adjust the output volume for each of my “normal” (non-stack/split) presets so that they have roughly the same output volume when switching through presets. This turned out to be especially useful with 'unison' presets as they are usually much louder. Fortunately this can still be done, however the workaround is somewhat convoluted.

Workaround:
1. enable stack or split mode
2. as the "A" preset load the preset for which you like to set and store the output volume
3. as the "B" preset load a "bogus" preset (I use a silent preset with all oscillator waveforms turned off)
4. adjust the volume by holding the 'Preset' button while turning the 'Volume' knob
5. switch back to the “A” layer
6. save the stack/split preset
7. turn stack/split off
8. save the preset again --> Result: The volume level set in step #4 is saved with the preset and stays persistent even when not in stack or split mode.

g3o2

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Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2022, 07:46:01 AM »
While I find the new way of setting volume of layers very intuitive, it currently has two major interactions with main volume:

* after you’ve adjusted layer balance, try adjusting main volume again. If pot mode is set to jump, prepare for unwanted main volume jumps! Personally, I consider this a bug, even though it appears consistent with global settings at first sight. Suggested solution: ALWAYS apply passthru pot mode to the main volume pot, indifferently from the global setting which should only apply to the other pots.

* a trickier one: after you’ve adjusted layer balance to max on layer B, turn off the device. After 10 seconds, turn it on again, and the main volume is now set to max. Be careful before you touch any key! Suggested solution: provide a default main volume setting in the globals (e.g. hold Global and turn the volume pot), which allows to set the main volume at startup - provided a default passthru mode for main volume, all should be fine now after restart.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2022, 07:53:36 AM by g3o2 »

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2022, 02:17:13 AM »
I highly recommend to the developers at Sequential to change the implementation of stack/split layer volume adjustment.

As has been said here, if you adjust the stack/split volume, the main volume knob is physically set at that position. And if your pots are in jump mode, adjusting the main volume after that can produce very nasty volume shocks.

Please put this on your urgent to do-list! :)

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2022, 10:22:39 AM »
I have a bug - that none of my Velocity or Aftertouch amounts are actually saved with presets. It always resets to 127. I've seen a few other people mention this in other threads too!

Micky

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2022, 09:22:38 PM »
For me this is a bad way to cancel the volumestoring .
Now i would have to make each pad new, and the way to store the volume for a simple patch is very complicated.

Waiting for Pitchbendamount Zero (for Split/Layers usability), Hold on/off per layer/split also. Nothing happened.
But a new function which "kills" another function. Q-compensation, which is a future only for people who are not able to level a synth.

They made much better updates in the past...

g3o2

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Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2022, 11:40:43 PM »
For me this is a bad way to cancel the volumestoring .
Now i would have to make each pad new, and the way to store the volume for a simple patch is very complicated.

It is not unlikely that Sequential has been simply unaware of the fact that this feature was actively used to control the absolute volume of presets rather than only the relative volume between layers within a preset.

LPF83

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Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2022, 03:50:49 AM »
Q-compensation, which is a future only for people who are not able to level a synth.

???  You do realize that a Q compensated filter is not the same as just turning up your volume knob on the entire sound, right?
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Korg Polysix, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

g3o2

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Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2022, 08:06:20 AM »
For me this is a bad way to cancel the volumestoring .
Now i would have to make each pad new, and the way to store the volume for a simple patch is very complicated.

It is not unlikely that Sequential has been simply unaware of the fact that this feature was actively used to control the absolute volume of presets rather than only the relative volume between layers within a preset.

To wrap it up, there are three kinds of volume settings that users _appear_ to care about:
* master volume, currently assigned to the volume pot,
* preset volume, previously (pre2.0.4) assigned to the Velocity+Inc/Dec button combo, now replaced by the velocity range setting,
* layer volume, now assigned to hold Preset + turn Volume pot combo.

With the interactions described in my first post here above, FWIW here my suggestions:
* master volume: “turn Volume pot”, same as legacy P5
* default master volume (when device is turned on): “hold Globals + turn Volume pot”
* preset volume: “hold Presets + turn Volume pot”
* layer balance: “hold Presets + hold Inc + turn Volume pot” (more complex but this is probably not used on the fly anyway, plus the “Presets + Dec/Inc” combo is used to select the layer mode, which would be consistent in terms of learning)

« Last Edit: October 15, 2022, 08:08:59 AM by g3o2 »

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2022, 02:40:50 AM »
is it normal that adjusting the layer-volume in stack mode always only adjust the volume of layer B? I have Laye A selected, hold preset and turn volume knob it lowers the volume of layer B. I have layer B selected this also adjusts only volume layer B.

Generally i have to say that using the main volume knob for this is not a great idea. I would like to keep exclusively  for Main Volume.

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2022, 06:58:53 AM »
is it normal that adjusting the layer-volume in stack mode always only adjust the volume of layer B? I have Laye A selected, hold preset and turn volume knob it lowers the volume of layer B. I have layer B selected this also adjusts only volume layer B.

Generally i have to say that using the main volume knob for this is not a great idea. I would like to keep exclusively  for Main Volume.

It doesn’t adjust the selected layer’s volume, rather it adjusts the volume balance between the two layers: 0 is 100% layer A and 0% layer B, 5 is a 50/50 mix, 10 is 0% layer A and 100% layer B.

Micky

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2022, 01:28:15 PM »
Q-compensation, which is a future only for people who are not able to level a synth.

???  You do realize that a Q compensated filter is not the same as just turning up your volume knob on the entire sound, right?
And how did they realize it ? Could they modifie hardware with a software-update ?
Is there an a/d>digital eq>da in this synth, which we all didn´t knew ?
For my understanding, Q-compensation works with different Volume-relationships.

But please explain how this works if not with volume-relationships.

For me this has never been a problem. Leveling the mixer, the envelope and master (with the great volume
in hold velocity&+/- was the way, really no need for a compensation.
This synth is like it is, that´s is special.

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2022, 03:28:12 PM »
Q-compensation, which is a future only for people who are not able to level a synth.

???  You do realize that a Q compensated filter is not the same as just turning up your volume knob on the entire sound, right?
And how did they realize it ? Could they modifie hardware with a software-update ?
Is there an a/d>digital eq>da in this synth, which we all didn´t knew ?
For my understanding, Q-compensation works with different Volume-relationships.

But please explain how this works if not with volume-relationships.

For me this has never been a problem. Leveling the mixer, the envelope and master (with the great volume
in hold velocity&+/- was the way, really no need for a compensation.
This synth is like it is, that´s is special.

Technically it does have to do with volume, though it would be dynamic and not so simple as just "turn the volume up in the mix" but to answer your question more directly. if you read the data spec on the filter chips, they already have the ability to Q compensate.  https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2140datasheet.pdf

LPF83

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Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2022, 05:17:15 PM »
Q-compensation, which is a future only for people who are not able to level a synth.

???  You do realize that a Q compensated filter is not the same as just turning up your volume knob on the entire sound, right?
And how did they realize it ? Could they modifie hardware with a software-update ?
Is there an a/d>digital eq>da in this synth, which we all didn´t knew ?
For my understanding, Q-compensation works with different Volume-relationships.

But please explain how this works if not with volume-relationships.

For me this has never been a problem. Leveling the mixer, the envelope and master (with the great volume
in hold velocity&+/- was the way, really no need for a compensation.
This synth is like it is, that´s is special.

Yes overall it is an impact on volume, but it changes the EQ spectrum in a way that a simple volume gain increase does not.  Try experimenting with the effect with different filter settings while viewing the harmonics in an analyzer and I think you'll see what I mean.  For example, you can put a resonant peak at certain frequencies, and while holding a key just toggle between min and max Q compensation ( 1 and 8 ).  The peak stays where it is, where lots of the lower harmonics are boosted.   Now contrast that with simply turning up the volume knob... everything moves upward in that case.  Hope this explanation is somewhat helpful.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Korg Polysix, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2023, 01:43:19 AM »
It's been almost a year since the last update, I'm wondering why does it take so long to fix the bugs about storage of velocity and aftertouch?

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2023, 01:46:50 AM »
It's been almost a year since the last update, I'm wondering why does it take so long to fix the bugs about storage of velocity and aftertouch?
Yes, I wonder about that too.

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2023, 05:00:56 AM »
It's been almost a year since the last update, I'm wondering why does it take so long to fix the bugs about storage of velocity and aftertouch?
Death of the founder of the company, other products in development, period of bug collation from users before implementing, then testing, small company. Plenty of legitimate reasons. Updates aren’t as quick as most people think. Often they have a knock-on effect and cause other issues that need to be addressed before a release is possible. I speak as someone who bug tests synths and pedals professionally.

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2023, 05:31:30 AM »
Thanks for your input. I understand, but one year is very long just to correct the problem of velocity/aftertouch saving.
Never seen anything like that with other companies, even small ones. For example Arturia, they always address bugs quickly.
Guess they don't have the same priorities.
Hopefully they are working on new interesting updates and will release everything at the same time.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 05:38:24 AM by Pl@ton »

chysn

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Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2023, 06:52:24 AM »
Guess they don't have the same priorities.

Updates have never been one of Sequential's strong suits, even with the original D.S.I. products. No formal release schedules, opaque issue tracking, release with (apparently) minimal testing. I suppose it's part of the charm. Each synth's update could very well be its last. I wouldn't be shocked if a Desktop Evolver update came out tomorrow. And I also wouldn't be shocked if there was never another Prophet 5 update. 15 years of observation here :)
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Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2024, 09:34:18 PM »
Hello, all -
Is this 2.0.4 OS a beta or an official release?  On Sequential's support area for the Prophet 5/10 there is only listed 2.0.1, nothing more recent.  Any clarifications much appreciated, as I am hesitant to update from 2.0.1.
Thank you.

Re: Firmware [Main OS 2.0.4 / Panel OS 1.1.3]: Feedback
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2024, 05:32:19 AM »
Running 2.0.4 since the release. Love the added functionality. You can go back if you’re having trouble.