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Novation SUMMIT ?

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #140 on: June 19, 2021, 05:00:03 PM »
Do you Summit owners find that the instrument has a lot of bugs?  How is Novation support over this?
Most of the bugs seem to be when controlling the keyboard externally. Iíve only encountered a couple. One is annoying - the dedicated saw detune feature doesnít work on layer B in a multi patch.

Support were reasonably quick in getting back to me and confirming it and adding it to the list.

Bug fixes havenít been forthcoming. Sadly, Chris Hugget (the synthís creator) died last year and I think that and a few other personnel issues has caused problems with keeping the synth up to date.

Other than that, Iíve not encountered anything that hinders me. There are other bugs and there have been attempts to collate them on the Gearspace Summit thread.

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #141 on: June 19, 2021, 05:07:18 PM »
Thanks.  So you're stuck waiting and hoping for an OS update?

The instrument sounds so good to me, really lush.  It's exactly what I'm looking for to replace my Poly Evolver Keyboard.  But once again, the blasted bugs issue!
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #142 on: June 20, 2021, 01:58:57 AM »
Thanks.  So you're stuck waiting and hoping for an OS update?

The instrument sounds so good to me, really lush.  It's exactly what I'm looking for to replace my Poly Evolver Keyboard.  But once again, the blasted bugs issue!

There are always bugs in synths. The prophet 10 still has a bug where detuning is impossible on 2-voice unison. I suppose the difference is though that weíve seen several updates since November, whereas there hasnít been anything for Summit in a while (though probably for the reasons in my previous post).

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #143 on: June 22, 2021, 10:29:21 AM »
RE bugs:

I thought I had  encountered a bug w. multilayer not saving part B at one point, but I honestly forgot about it and now don't remember what that was.  I have not noticed it since.    Nothing has hindered me on this instrument. 

RE service:    At one time I contacted Novation Support since I thought I had a voice dropping out issue.  Summit assigned me a service contact ticket and got back to me in probably 3-4 days or so.  I didn't think that was too long being that it was just at the beginning of the Covid epidemic.   I had a few email conversations with them before I realized the issue was with my cables, and nothing to do with the instrument.   Generally I got the sense that Novation would be fairly decent on the support front.   I have not looked for a Novation forum on-line, so I'm unfamiliar with what the common gripes might be, but I don't really have one.

The update software is thru the "components" software you can download.  It tells you if an update is needed in the future.  I did it once so far.  Very easy and quick.  My guess is that some bugs may be rectified during such updates.
Sequential Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Evolver desktop,   Pro-2, OB6, P-12
 

https://Soundcloud.com/wavescape-1

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2021, 03:57:54 AM »
I believe you asked (Sacred Synthesis) for my contribution to this thread after the points I raised in the Rev2 firmware updates/bugs thread. Although I see youíve subsequently deleted that part of your post. Anyway as both a long term Dave Smith product buyer (P2000/P2002/P6) and someone who was a potential Rev2 customer And someone who bought a Summit in January 2021, hereís my view of the instrument and itís bugs:

The Summit is stable enough and an awesomely capable instrument. It is a chameleon in it abilities. One that is not only able to produce great vintage analogue sounds, match most of the current crop of machines out there and take you on great hands on journeys to places youíve never been.

The FPGA oscillators do perform better than any DSP based solution (Eg P12) and they provide a much wider set of features than any DCO or VCO synth. Having 3 oscillators all with a full complement of waveforms, shaping, sync, fm and wave table capabilities is a real shot in the arm for anyone interested in complex modelling or real instrument synthesis. I love it!

Perhaps the most important feature is the filter design. In addition to its ability to do impressively powerful 24db effects, itís almost SEM 12db mode is also really nice.. all with very controllable resonance and both post and pre overdrive. Again for serious instrument modelling the dual mode filter option provides a very capable way of simulating real instrument resonance. So far Iíve used it extensively to model clavinets, trumpet, sax, guitar, Wurly and Rhodes. Not because I needed these sounds but because Iím amazed at how close you can get to these sounds on what is basically a fairly classic synth. Itís a testament to the the instrumentís flexibility.

I admit Iíve only scratched the surface. And everyday is a new adventure, especially with more experimental stuff. Itís huge fun!

Irritations and limitations: although the mod matrix does have way more slots than the Rev2. And even a separate section for efx. which is nice coz with complex modelling you can soon be knocking slot 16. The lack of the ability to cascade slots or as on the Blofeld, Ďthe modifierí which enables much more comprehensive source interaction, is at times frustrating. Novation/Huggett's method of combining two sources max in a multiply function goes some way to mitigating this, but there is no real way to adjust the level of each source and there are definitely times when you want a*b*c such as: mod wheel * lfo3*Ampenv this would provide a note gated Lfo to the overall vca at the depth of mod wheelÖ but you canít!

Thereís no pan destination!

Although the efx on the Summit are very good and there two complete sets of them.. they are not properly integrated with the synth engine. So the controls and the bus work against any real finesse. It feels to me that Novation just havenít finished the design in this area.

So the Summit is not without itís rough edges and bugs.

Summit bugs I know of:-

1. None of the 3 envelope generators track properly from lower values of decay to sustain. Decay levels between 4 and 30 cause the level to jump to meet the sustain level at the end of the decay phase.

2. The decay stage doesn't fade out in a natural, standard sounding log curve. It just drops like its a linear law volume curve.

3. Velocity added in the envelopes from the envelope menus doesn't properly multiply with the envelope contour it adds an offset!! For higher levels of velocity control added from this menu this has a gate like effect, reducing the influence of the envelop shape on the sound. For example a slow attack sound, becomes a fast attack with velocity added in this menu because the velocity added simply gates the contour on.

4. Velocity applied via a mod slot to the AmpEnv (to rectify the above error!) causes random clicks and pops on key gate on.

5. Summit effects are wonderful but the effects bus is utterly broken where changing the dry signal level also changes the wet level Ė yes theyíre wired in series!!!

6. The current arrangement of the 3 digital effects in series or parallel creates some very limiting problems, particularly with the chorus. Out of the 3 effects, chorus is the only one that is configured to always pass the dry signal, when this is combined with the original dry signal there is a sort of phase cancellation effect (even when the chorus depth is turned to 0) this appears to be because thereís a DSP clocking delay of a few mSec between the original analogue signal and the DSP processed output. Really the 3 level controls should be wet/dry controls for each effect. There would then be no need for the analogue signal to be remixed.

7. User wavetables appear to be high frequency limited Ė this is possibly a Components bug. This has yet to be properly investigated

8. There's a bug in the midi system that fails to send/react to FM controls for the 3 oscillators.

9. Thereís a bug in full 16 voice mode (the default mode) where voices 9 to 16 do not receive midi note commands.

Big synth stuff: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJkR38XLkFear5Sf9QypQvA
| Kurzweil Forte | Casio Privia PX 5s | Nord Electro 3 73 | Studiologic Sledge Black| Roland Juno Di | DSI Prophet 6 | Oberheim DPX 1 | EMU Esi 4000 | 2 x Yamaha Tx7 |

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2021, 07:46:00 AM »
Thanks for all that information, Hector.  I didn't mean to exclude you from the question.  I removed your name from my post so as to make it more generally addressed to everybody. 

The Summit seems to be a possible replacement for a Poly Evolver Keyboard, especially with its stereo potential, thanks  to the two pairs of audio output jacks.  That's what caught my attention.  But I haven't seen any videos that exploited such a capability.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 07:51:02 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #146 on: August 02, 2021, 10:54:43 AM »
Got it.    There are some specific voice type wave shapes that are good choir starters.   I actually imported my own voice shape via the editor saying Ahhh.  It's pretty convincing human voice. 

Ironically, my favorite part, I forgot to mention that I think filter(s) are really nice on Summit.  There are post and pre filter drive, sort of like the drive you get on the P12.   I find myself using a touch of post drive quite a bit.    The ability to split filter between paths in HP/LP/BP is really a strong point.   You can find a bunch of different sounds from the same patch, all a completely different feel, just by using subtle adjustment with hundreds of incremental possible settings.   For example,  I took some of the on-board pads and made them more to my liking just with abandoning the default LP and switching to the multimode filter.


Borrowing (continuation of topic) from the PolyEvolver section.   

The stereo arrangement outputs on the Novation can be set up in two ways.   Normal is the L/R mains out.  Normal Panning is done via pan spread setting.  Alternate arrangement applicable to layer mode is done simply by pulling out the L out plug and sliding it into the L aux input.  In settings just set "B" layer to aux.  That's it.    This in effect places a wider spread when using the instrument in multimode.   This spread is very pronounced with using split patches- whereas "A" layer comes out of the right and "B" layer out of the Left earphone or speaker.  While two similar patches stacked will create a simply gorgeous stereophonic sound.  But two dissimilar patches it can be cool too.   For example,  Violins on the left , French horns on the right, or whatever.   As a quick reversal, and depending on how your effects are patched in,  you can use your mixer routing with dry effect to recombine (re-center) if you wish.   What I like about this Summit arrangement is that I still only have two cords running to my mixer.  A similar process is doable on the Prophet 12, also yielding a beautiful sound, but 4 cords are needed.   

Ultimately this probably all comes down to how you are using the  sound.  For example, live solo, single track this type of sound is really quite amazing.  In a recording of many layers might be too busy with how it sits.   

Sacred Synthesis, in the other thread you were asking about  PEK replacement.  I had already commented on that regard.  But after not using the Summit for a few months and playing with it just yesterday...I can tell you it really does sound superb.   The digital ability can likely get you the sounds you want in that realm.  I like the built in Osc 3 wired to Filter mod to yield some subtle, or wild tones.  The fm controls and ring mod are all easier to control than on the PEK.  In a perfect world I think that a Sequential remake of PEK would be your best bet, but in lack of any evidence of that happening anytime soon, and in a price range contemporary,  I cannot think of a better instrument to fit the bill.
Sequential Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Evolver desktop,   Pro-2, OB6, P-12
 

https://Soundcloud.com/wavescape-1

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #147 on: August 02, 2021, 12:18:48 PM »
Now you're singing my tune, Soundquest!  Thank you for doing a little more careful analysis of the Summit.  It definitely is the foremost contender for the hybrid position in my set up, although I would much rather have a Poly Evolver Rev2. 

I seem to have all the reasons needed to put my mighty eight-voice Poly Evolver for sale on Craigslist.  But...but....I need to sleep with her for just one more week. :'(
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 12:23:21 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

Gerry Havinga

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    • For the love of electronic music
Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #148 on: August 02, 2021, 02:08:54 PM »
Now you're singing my tune, Soundquest!  Thank you for doing a little more careful analysis of the Summit.  It definitely is the foremost contender for the hybrid position in my set up, although I would much rather have a Poly Evolver Rev2. 

I seem to have all the reasons needed to put my mighty eight-voice Poly Evolver for sale on Craigslist.  But...but....I need to sleep with her for just one more week. :'(
Oh my goodness, you are really going to do that, wow ....... What a journey.
DAW-less and going down the Eurorack rabbit hole.

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #149 on: August 02, 2021, 03:01:16 PM »
Now you're singing my tune, Soundquest!  Thank you for doing a little more careful analysis of the Summit.  It definitely is the foremost contender for the hybrid position in my set up, although I would much rather have a Poly Evolver Rev2. 

I seem to have all the reasons needed to put my mighty eight-voice Poly Evolver for sale on Craigslist.  But...but....I need to sleep with her for just one more week. :'(
Oh my goodness, you are really going to do that, wow ....... What a journey.

I'm only at the sleeping phase.  ???
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #150 on: August 03, 2021, 04:55:18 PM »
At last it seems that the PEAK is comming in a 16 voice keyboard version... i just hope it'll come in a module version as well, but nonetheless, I'm getting this! ... it has two of the fuctions I've missed; dual timbrality and 16 voices! :)

This makes my current doubt about getting a Prophet 12 a lot easier because with this, I see no real need to get a P12 in any way... the dual timbrality and the 16 voices would kill the P12 in my view...

I have both, they do not sound alike. I use both extensively. Its like comparing a organ and an electric piano. Different instruments.
Moog Modular Model 15,Korg Prophecy,Korg Z1,Nord Modular Keyboard,DSI OB6,DSI P12,DSI Rev 2 16voiceMoog Minimoog D,SEM Modules,Moog Slim Phattys,Alesis QS 8.1,Alesis QSR,Roland Integra 7,Genelec 8341s,8040,8030,Novation Peak,Kawai K5000R,Eurorack Modulars,etc..

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #151 on: October 16, 2021, 03:40:31 PM »
I'm surprised there aren't more YouTube videos of the Novation Summit.  There are so many more of the Peak.  Yes, the price difference; but, for what it offers, I think the Summit is reasonably priced.
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #152 on: October 22, 2021, 10:16:01 AM »
I don't think its so much of a cost thing limiting persons to make videos- like for example with a Moog 1 or something like that, rather its probably some subtle factors.   

Once you get past the initial demos from the music stores, the standard synth channels, or persons selling patches, the music postings die out.   This would seem true with Summit.  But remember when P12 was somewhat absent on YouTube its heyday and Pro 2 was even more sparse in video representation?   Obviously there's a lot of people playing these instruments out there, so it might just be more of a dynamic of taking the effort to make a video, or perhaps the personality of someone that would want to make a video.   As you were mentioning in another post Sacred Synthesis, the maintaining of a YouTube channel takes a lot of work.  But its also hard enough just to do one video once in a while.  I mean by time you "film it" and  assemble the video in some kind of video software, next thing you know you spent a whole day.  Nevertheless,  I too which there was more videos, especially of the instruments I have.  I do enjoy watching what others do with the same equipment.

Sequential Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Evolver desktop,   Pro-2, OB6, P-12
 

https://Soundcloud.com/wavescape-1

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #153 on: October 26, 2021, 11:06:42 AM »
New member here.

Just want to provide some feedback on this particular topic.

Until recently I was the proud owner of a beautiful Polyevolver Keyboard. I was the original owner and I purchased it new from bigcitymusic ages ago. I loved that thing but there was always one thing that grated on my nerves every time I'd patch up a new sound and play it - the limited polyphony. I should have purchased the rack units when they were on blowout for <$1000 each; but, I didn't  :-\

Anyway, last year GAS started hitting hard and I wanted something with more polyphony than what I already had. The only polyphonic synths remaining in my studio were the PEK, Juno60, RS-09, and a Deluge. Well now that I have a wife and a house full of kids I really can't justify buying anything for the studio unless I fund the purchase with proceeds gained by selling something from my studio. The RS-09 wouldn't sell for enough and there is no way I'm getting rid of the Deluge anytime soon as it's pretty much my main sequencer/sampler - that left the PEK and the Juno.... this was a tough decision as I am quite fond of both instruments and I've owned them for a real long time.

I'm trying to get to the point, so I'm going to cut out a long story in order to cut to the chase. After doing a lot of research, listening to every demo I could find, and watching every video available I settled on the Summit (unfortunately there is nowhere near where I live where I could demo one in person). I decided to keep the Juno60 because their value is skyrocketing (I'll eventually sell it) so that left me with the painful decision to sell the PEK. I was hoping that Sequential was going to announce a successor sometime this summer/fall after their announcement back in the spring that they were going to make two product announcements by August (or September?), but alas here we are and all we know of is the Take5...

For the record, this thread in particular was one source of information that I used to help make my decision. That is why I am providing some feedback here, in order to help other people who come here for the same reason I did.

Now my take on the Summit.

Interface:
It is easy to program. If you are comfortable flying around the PEK's internal and external interfaces then the Summit will be no problem. Period. This applies to those who are familiar with other DSI/Sequential products as well as the menu interface is similar across a lot of them. The people who complain about menu diving on the Summit really have no idea what real menu diving is really like. Sure, there is a menu. Sure, there are features that are only accessible from the menu. Sure you might actually have to flip through the menu to get to whatever page you are looking for. The reality of the situation is that the front panel has so much routing available on it that unless you are doing more advanced sound design (or are routing the mod wheel, velocity, or aftertouch) then you will not need to even touch the menus. You can route the LFOs and Envelopes to individual Oscillators' Pitch, Waveform Shape, FM Amounts, and Filter Cutoffs directly on the front panel with a knob. In addition to all the normal stuff you would expect to see on a front panel, you can modify VCA gain, Osc3 to Cutoff, Filter Overdrive, Ring Mod Amount, and other stuff directly on the front panel with a knob. You also have key controls for each of the three effects units on the front panel with dedicated knobs. Knobs everywhere. That said, the menu is dead simple to use and each section only has a few pages.

Mod Matrix:
As alluded to above, the mod matrix is super easy to use. That said, it is more limited than the PEK. The PEK seemed to have every feature as a source and/or destination. The Summit seems to be missing some things that I would want in the mod matrix. The sad thing is, right now I can't seem to recall what they are. There might not even be many that are missing. They just happen to pop up as I'm patching together a new sound. So, if you are into DEEP sound design make sure you review the sources/destinations in the mod matrix to make sure they hit all of your high points.

Filter:
The Summit's filter simply CRUSHES the PEK's filter. There is no comparison. The 4 voice polyphony was the PEK's #1 drawback. #2 was the filter. The filter simply didn't have much sonic character. That said, one thing I loved to do on the PEK was to route the stereo voices into a 'mono' channel and then apply a "spread" between the L & R filters such that when you did a filter sweep you could hear the two cutoffs at the same time. Well..... you can get the same exact effect (but it sounds even better) with the Summit because you can split the 4 pole resonant filter into two 2 pole resonant filters and then apply an offset between them. The Summit's filter is miles ahead of the PEK's on so many different levels. You can have two LPs, two HPs, two BPs, and mix any two together in either serial or parallel. It's simply wonderful and they sound so goooooood.

Oscillators:
The standard waveforms sound about what you would expect. One big difference with the standard waveforms between the PEK and the Summit is that on the Summit you can adjust the shape of the Sine and Triangle waveforms and you can turn the Saw into a massive SuperSaw. The wavetable scanning is nice addition. I will say though that a lot of the included waveforms sound a touch too nasally for my tastes though.

Voice Assignment:
The Summit is very flexible. There are different mono and polyphonic modes. Throughout those modes you can stack different numbers of voices as you wish. You want mono w/one voice, or 2, or 3, or 4, or 8? Sure! You want poly with two voices stacked, or 3, or 4, or 8? Sure! You want drift on each voice? Sure! You want to detune the voices? Sure! Also, the bi-timberal functionality is an absolute BREEZE to use and is very flexible.

Effects:
The effects are all piled on at the end of the audio chain. Which is fine. You can also route the effects into each other, or in parallel with each other, however you want. The reverb is awesome. I wish there was a dedicated rack mounted reverb, which didn't cost a fortune, which sounded as good as the Summit's. The chorus is good. It is usable. Is it as nice as the Juno60's? Absolutely not. No comparison. I like the distortion. It sounds pretty good. The delay is one of my biggest gripes with the Summit. I honestly find the delay uninspiring. I have never had to work with a delay so much to get it to sound the way i expect as I have had to with the Summit.

Biggest Complaints:
1) I am not a fan of the Envelope's attack and decay curves. I wish they were adjustable. It seems that everything else on the Summit is, so I feel like this was a huge missed opportunity. I mean you can adjust the phase on each of the LFO's so why can't I adjust the response curve of the Envelopes from linear, to log, to antilog, etc? It's a simple lookup table. Nothing too hard to do there. Now, I say that it is a complaint, but obviously it isn't a deal breaker.

2) The delay is annoying. I feel like I have to do a ton of tweaking to get the delay to work the way I want it. I find myself just turning the delay's level all the way down and using my outboard delays a lot of times - which is aggravating because I really want the delayed signal to be swept away within the Summit's ab-so-lutely-amazing reverb. If I put enough work into the delay I can get close to what I want most of the time but my God it shouldn't be an arm wrestling match to do so, it's a delay for crying out loud!

3) I do not like the majority of the custom wavetables provided within the Summit. I feel like they really could have put more thought into adding a variety of different sounds onboard. There are too many that share too many characteristics. In addition to that a lot of them sound very nasal in tone. Yes, I know you can upload user defined wavetables using their software - I've used it and it is easy to use, I just haven't uploaded any custom ones yet.

4) I haven't yet wrapped my head around the alternate tuning tables. It should be easy but I'm clearly missing something here.

5) Again, I have this nagging feeling that on occasion I am missing something that I want in the mod matrix. I can't even think of what they are though. That said, I am coming from the PEK so I am very spoiled in that regards. On the PEK, if I wanted to adjust something in the mod matrix there was a 99.9% chance it was there. I feel like the Summit is more like 95% covered. I know, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

PEK vs. Summit:
1) I love the PEK's true stereo signal path. I miss it every day I play with my Summit. I loved being able to adjust the panning of the voices however I wanted to. This is the #1 feature that I miss. The only way you can really appreciate stereo in the summit is through the effects (Reverb, Chorus, and/or Delay). The voice spread is ok but it's not the same by any stretch of the imagination.

2) The PEK's 3 delays were more like an integral part of the synth's voice than an effect, but they could be applied as a standard delay effect if you so desired. I loved the PEK's delays they ADDED so much character to the synth. The Summit's delay is simply an effect - a frustrating one to use at that.

3) The Summit's filters are sooooooooooooooooooo much better than the PEK's. They even sound good when overdriven by the oscillators, the PEK's filter sounded worse when overdriven.

4) There is no discernible stepping (at least to my ears) when I grab the Summit's cutoff knob and give it a twist - I cringe when I think about the stepping on the PEK's (yes, I know if you assign cutoff to real time controllers, and pot edition, and blah blah blah).

5) 16 voices per patch or 8 voices split across two complete synth engines and control them in an intuitive manner VS. 4 voices per patch or 1 voice across 4 complete synth engines and control them with a hope and a prayer. The Summit is on top here.

6) You can overdrive the filter's output and also apply distortion as a separate effect on the Summit but it still doesn't get anywhere near as crunchy as the PEK. The PEK can easily turn into a noise machine simply by looking at it. If you want some awesome distorted sounds the PEK crushes the Summit.

Final Conclusion:
I should have sold the Juno60 and funded the Summit with it rather than with my PEK. I kind of regret that decision. Don't get me wrong. The Summit is a great instrument. It can be very experimental and it is a great sounding instrument, BUT I find myself creating more traditional synth sounds on it as they come out sounding beautiful. It takes a lot of effort for whatever reason, FOR ME, to crank out more experimental sounding patches on the Summit. I feel that outside of the Juno's unique Chorus and Filter the Summit can do everything the Juno60 does but so much better. The PEK was a special instrument. Others have said that I should have replaced the PEK with the new Hydrasynth Deluxe rather than the Summit. They might have been right - but the filters on the Summit are sooooo yummy it's hard to believe that Hydrasynth's would be as good.

Said another way:
I should have sold the Juno60 and replaced it with the Summit and I should have sold the PEK for the non-existent PEK rev2 with better filters and more polyphony (which sadly doesn't exist - I am holding a grudge against Dave Smith because of this). I think a massively polyphonic Pro2 or Pro3 would have fit the bill quite nicely but whatever. I really wanted to give Dave Smith my money again but the Take 5 was a release in the wrong direction (for me at least).

I do like my new Summit but I also miss my old PEK. Would I reverse the trade? Nope  ;)

-Jim

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #154 on: October 26, 2021, 01:19:56 PM »
Thanks for that detailed review of the Summit, Johans.  There is a lot of useful information in it to ponder.

I've been on the fence about selling my eight-voice PEK-PER combination.  I love the instrument and have no complaints about it, but I don't have the resources necessary to maintain it in the future if it develops major problems. 

I've done plenty of research by now and have concluded that the Summit is the right instrument to replace the PEK...although I don't want to replace it.  If I could know that it wouldn't break down in the future, I'd happily keep it.

The only comment in your post that makes me hesitant concerns the stereo setting of the Summit.  Stereo is a major issue for me; all my polyphonic synthesis must be deeply stereo.  My intention would be to make use, at all times, of the Summit's two pairs of output jacks, so that each patch layer would be sent to the opposite left/right channel.  I've never found a YouTuber who actually made use of this option, so thus far I've been going on faith alone that it works just fine.  But I would like to have more certainty about it.  Have you tried this arrangement?
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #155 on: October 27, 2021, 08:48:29 AM »
I've been on the fence about selling my eight-voice PEK-PER combination.  I love the instrument and have no complaints about it, but I don't have the resources necessary to maintain it in the future if it develops major problems.

FWIW if I had an eight voice Evolver I would have kept it but I understand your concern. Maintenance issues can be very real. That is why I want to sell my Juno60 at some point. I don't want to have to maintain it if it ever becomes problematic. I also have a pro one but that is going to the grave with me - it's a basic enough of an instrument that I can perform most maintenance/repairs on it.

Quote
I've done plenty of research by now and have concluded that the Summit is the right instrument to replace the PEK...although I don't want to replace it.

It's a tough decision to make especially if you like the instrument. I mentioned in the last post that I started this process a year ago. It was actually more like two years ago when the Summit & Hydrasynth were first released. I have lost sleep over the decision, long before the decision was even made. I was very fond of my PEK and was quite proud of the patches that I created on it.

Quote
The only comment in your post that makes me hesitant concerns the stereo setting of the Summit.  Stereo is a major issue for me; all my polyphonic synthesis must be deeply stereo.  My intention would be to make use, at all times, of the Summit's two pairs of output jacks, so that each patch layer would be sent to the opposite left/right channel.  I've never found a YouTuber who actually made use of this option, so thus far I've been going on faith alone that it works just fine.  But I would like to have more certainty about it.  Have you tried this arrangement?

I personally have not tested the auxiliary pair of outputs yet on the Summit. I only used the main stereo pair on my PEK and never used the individual voice outputs as I always used the 4 voices polyphonically (or monophonically) never multitimberaly.

If you give me some very specific (i.e. detailed) use cases I will try to build them in my studio and test them out for you. I have a large mixer and patchbays so I will be able to re-cable things fairly easy for testing purposes.

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #156 on: October 27, 2021, 09:31:31 AM »
Johans121,    Look at my Aug 2nd post above- it describes the basic alternate stereo spread setup on Summit.  Not sure there's another way. 

From the hardware instruments I've used, PEK takes the cake with stereo width without expending any effort.  It's just there, and you hear it right away, but not overbearing.  I found the UDO Super 6 to be in the same league here too.  With some manipulation of outgoing soundcables , the P12 and Novation Summit can be made to be wider too.  Understand that on the Novation this is layer A on one side B on the other.  Whereas P12 uses 4 cables to do this, and probably technically a better approach.    Like any stereo, this widening, if pronounced, can be both good and bad depending on the patch or what you are trying to do.
Sequential Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Evolver desktop,   Pro-2, OB6, P-12
 

https://Soundcloud.com/wavescape-1

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #157 on: October 27, 2021, 10:05:03 AM »
Yes, that's one of the many strengths of the Poly Evolver - stereo is more or less its default setting.  It takes no effort to make gorgeous stereo pads, thanks to the inbuilt dividing of oscillators to opposite channels.  There's no need to fuss with jacks on the back of the instrument. 

When I first tried the the Prophet 12, I didn't care for the sound at all.  But then I made use the pairs of output jacks and set it in stereo that way, which transformed the sound.  It's a bit more inconvenient and messy, and it doesn't allow you to easily go back and forth between mono and stereo, but it works.  This is what I would expect and hope to be the case with the Summit.  But again, I haven't heard anyone do it yet.

What I'm proposing is that, on the Summit, two different layers be designed and, using the jacks, panned to opposite sides, and then played together.  These layers can be either different sounds or the same.

It's unfortunate that I'm only trying to emulate the Poly Evolver on another instrument.  I also happen to like the selection of digital wave shapes found on the PEK.  By contrast, the Summit seems to have a poor or limited selection.  Johans described them as "nasal."  This doesn't sound promising, especially since I'm not intending to load my own.   
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 10:31:55 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #158 on: October 27, 2021, 10:35:34 AM »
Yes, that's one of the many strengths of the Poly Evolver - stereo is more or less its default setting.  It takes no effort to make gorgeous stereo pads, thanks to the inbuilt dividing of oscillators to opposite channels.  There's no need to fuss with jacks on the back of the instrument. 

When I first tried the the Prophet 12, I didn't care for the sound at all.  But then I made use the pairs of output jacks and set it in stereo that way, which transformed the sound.  It's a bit more inconvenient and messy, and it doesn't allow you to easily go back and forth between mono and stereo, but it works.  This is what I would expect and hope to be the case with the Summit.  But again, I haven't heard anyone do it yet.

What I'm proposing is that, on the Summit, two different layers be designed and, using the jacks, panned to opposite sides, and then played together.  These layers can be either different sounds or the same.

It's unfortunate that I'm only trying to emulate the Poly Evolver on another instrument.  I also happen to like the selection of digital wave shapes found on the PEK.  By contrast, the Summit seems to have a poor or limited selection.  Johans described them as "nasal."  This doesn't sound promising, especially since I'm not intending to load my own.   

Any interest in the HydraSynth Deluxe. It's not a hybrid but if you are dead set on refusing to create and load your own wavetables and just stick with what's on board then the HydraSynth might have a better pallet of sounds to choose from than the Summit.

Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2021, 12:32:35 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion, Lobolives.  I've looked at the Hydrasynth and the Deluxe.  They're remarkable instruments, but they don't seem to be the right synthesizers for me.  I'm still looking at them, though.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 01:28:06 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com