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OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: Razmo on May 07, 2019, 12:37:15 AM

Title: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 07, 2019, 12:37:15 AM
At last it seems that the PEAK is comming in a 16 voice keyboard version... i just hope it'll come in a module version as well, but nonetheless, I'm getting this! ... it has two of the fuctions I've missed; dual timbrality and 16 voices! :)

This makes my current doubt about getting a Prophet 12 a lot easier because with this, I see no real need to get a P12 in any way... the dual timbrality and the 16 voices would kill the P12 in my view...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 07, 2019, 09:32:35 AM
Oh man... Matriarch or this one? I can't buy both in the near future...

It will be interesting to see how much the PEAK is going to be worth on the used market then...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 07, 2019, 10:04:28 AM
Oh man... Matriarch or this one? I can't buy both in the near future...

It will be interesting to see how much the PEAK is going to be worth on the used market then...

It was almost destined to happen... the PEAK has been very successful, I see it in many peoples setups, and this addresses exactly the things that was the drawbacks of the PEAK if any... I think it will be compatible with the PEAK to be honest, so I also believe it will be preset compatible... it would only need an OS update for PEAK regarding the new Chord mode on the arp, and that's an easy fix really... the only difference i see is the audio input, a few more knobs and the 16 voices plus dual timbrality... even with a simple OS update that introduce polychaining on the PEAK could be interesting and make the PEAK not so obsolete compared to the SUMMIT.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 07, 2019, 11:51:21 AM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 07, 2019, 01:30:55 PM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0

It's very clear from the text, that this is "simply" two PEAKS put together under one hood... basically the same as a REV2 which is also two synths under the hood... each part has it's own FX and it's own output... just like the REV2.

I wonder if inside there is simply two separate PEAK boards with a common interface board and a few bells and whistles.

no matter what, it's exactly what the PEAK should have been from the start in my opinion... this synth seems to be perfect if they just add a Pan destination for the Mod Matrix, and maybe add a few more envelopes/LFO's ... two of the current LFO's are global... I don't understand why they did not make three LFO's per voice since the synth has 3 oscillators...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 07, 2019, 01:33:43 PM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0

It's very clear from the text, that this is "simply" two PEAKS put together under one hood... basically the same as a REV2 which is also two synths under the hood... each part has it's own FX and it's own output... just like the REV2.

I wonder if inside there is simply two separate PEAK boards with a common interface board and a few bells and whistles.

no matter what, it's exactly what the PEAK should have been from the start in my opinion... this synth seems to be perfect if they just add a Pan destination for the Mod Matrix, and maybe add a few more envelopes/LFO's ... two of the current LFO's are global... I don't understand why they did not make three LFO's per voice since the synth has 3 oscillators...

Isn't the dual filter mode new? There are 4 LEDs next to the filter knob instead of 3.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 07, 2019, 01:37:21 PM
It's probably easier to see from this angle:

(https://novationmusic.com/sites/novation/files/Summit-HeaderImage-2560-1000.png)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 07, 2019, 02:08:12 PM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0

It's very clear from the text, that this is "simply" two PEAKS put together under one hood... basically the same as a REV2 which is also two synths under the hood... each part has it's own FX and it's own output... just like the REV2.

I wonder if inside there is simply two separate PEAK boards with a common interface board and a few bells and whistles.

no matter what, it's exactly what the PEAK should have been from the start in my opinion... this synth seems to be perfect if they just add a Pan destination for the Mod Matrix, and maybe add a few more envelopes/LFO's ... two of the current LFO's are global... I don't understand why they did not make three LFO's per voice since the synth has 3 oscillators...

Isn't the dual filter mode new? There are 4 LEDs next to the filter knob instead of 3.

Yes... I missed that feature, but it's not clear how it actually works... maybe it's something they can actually do by configuring the filter already in the PEAK in a new way... it does have both a 12 and 24 db mode with all filter types, so it may be that it's actually two cascaded 12db filters that make up the filter in PEAK, and that when it is in 12db mode one of the filters is simply "turned off"... maybe they can configure two filters (dual filter) this way, I don't know... but if it is what I just wrote, then a simple OS update for PEAK could do the same thing.

It also COULD be a new hardware feature, and then SUMMIT would simply be backwards compatible, while PEAK will not be able to achieve this filter type... guess we'll just have to wait and see :) ... anyway it's almost certain that I'm getting a SUMMIT even if it has keys on it.. i want that synth! ... then I'll simply have to find a space for it anyway :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on May 07, 2019, 03:23:13 PM
I'm looking for a knobby wavetable synth that's not ridiculously expensive, but can't find any examples that are all that interesting as far as the Peak is concerned, even after the update. The much cheaper Blofeld (which granted has been out much longer) blows it out of the water in that regard from what I've heard online and even despite not being the quality of the former. Everything about the Peak seems like it should be up to the task, although perhaps the timbrality (or lack thereof) has to do with it falling short... Being bi-timbral should help a bit I'm sure.

The Super 6, Summit, and hopefully soon to be announced Sequential digital front-end synth certainly have my attention.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on May 07, 2019, 06:30:37 PM
I'm looking for a knobby wavetable synth that's not ridiculously expensive, but can't find any examples that are all that interesting as far as the Peak is concerned, even after the update. The much cheaper Blofeld (which granted has been out much longer) blows it out of the water in that regard from what I've heard online and even despite not being the quality of the former. Everything about the Peak seems like it should be up to the task, although perhaps the timbrality (or lack thereof) has to do with it falling short... Being bi-timbral should help a bit I'm sure.

The Super 6, Summit, and hopefully soon to be announced Sequential digital front-end synth certainly have my attention.

This! So much this! I’m just missing an unapologetically digital synth to compliment my analog synths and sample based synths. FM sounds, Wavetables etc. I had my eye on the Roland System 8 for a while but wanted to hold off to see what the market would bring. It looks like this year will be the year of a lot of options. Still...we don’t know Sequential is doing a pure digital front end synth...it could be something completely unexpected.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:47 AM
I'm looking for a knobby wavetable synth that's not ridiculously expensive, but can't find any examples that are all that interesting as far as the Peak is concerned, even after the update. The much cheaper Blofeld (which granted has been out much longer) blows it out of the water in that regard from what I've heard online and even despite not being the quality of the former. Everything about the Peak seems like it should be up to the task, although perhaps the timbrality (or lack thereof) has to do with it falling short... Being bi-timbral should help a bit I'm sure.

The Super 6, Summit, and hopefully soon to be announced Sequential digital front-end synth certainly have my attention.

I'm rather certain that PEAK is able to kick the Blofeld out of the game, especially when it comes to the audio quality... the Blofeld is a bandlimited 48Khz machine, PEAK is running at 24MHz internally... I can tell you that aliasing is not even present to my ears on the PEAK when using the wavetables even.

I've had the Blofeld, and never liked the Waldorf digital sound (only when they introduce analog filters I get interested).

If you have not heard anything that impress you about the PEAK, it's probably because no one has made sounds that would impress you, that is my bet... the only advantage I see to the Blofeld is that you can create your own wavetables.

If you compare to the older Microwaves, these ooze with biting aliasing... if that's what you want (many do), then that may be why you do not like the PEAKs near perfect wavetable quality... but I'm certain that this can be emulated on PEAK with a simple aliasing algorithm in the OS.

but then again... people have different tastes... but for me, the best Wavetable synths out there are PEAK and QUANTUM. Followed closely by the Microwave 1 which has analog filters.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 08, 2019, 03:20:15 AM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0

It's very clear from the text, that this is "simply" two PEAKS put together under one hood... basically the same as a REV2 which is also two synths under the hood... each part has it's own FX and it's own output... just like the REV2.

I wonder if inside there is simply two separate PEAK boards with a common interface board and a few bells and whistles.

no matter what, it's exactly what the PEAK should have been from the start in my opinion... this synth seems to be perfect if they just add a Pan destination for the Mod Matrix, and maybe add a few more envelopes/LFO's ... two of the current LFO's are global... I don't understand why they did not make three LFO's per voice since the synth has 3 oscillators...

Isn't the dual filter mode new? There are 4 LEDs next to the filter knob instead of 3.

Is it dual or have they added a notch shape?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 08, 2019, 03:23:14 AM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0

It's very clear from the text, that this is "simply" two PEAKS put together under one hood... basically the same as a REV2 which is also two synths under the hood... each part has it's own FX and it's own output... just like the REV2.

I wonder if inside there is simply two separate PEAK boards with a common interface board and a few bells and whistles.

no matter what, it's exactly what the PEAK should have been from the start in my opinion... this synth seems to be perfect if they just add a Pan destination for the Mod Matrix, and maybe add a few more envelopes/LFO's ... two of the current LFO's are global... I don't understand why they did not make three LFO's per voice since the synth has 3 oscillators...

Isn't the dual filter mode new? There are 4 LEDs next to the filter knob instead of 3.

Is it dual or have they added a notch shape?

Dual according to the brochure above. No mention of notch mode.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 08, 2019, 05:25:37 AM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0

It's very clear from the text, that this is "simply" two PEAKS put together under one hood... basically the same as a REV2 which is also two synths under the hood... each part has it's own FX and it's own output... just like the REV2.

I wonder if inside there is simply two separate PEAK boards with a common interface board and a few bells and whistles.

no matter what, it's exactly what the PEAK should have been from the start in my opinion... this synth seems to be perfect if they just add a Pan destination for the Mod Matrix, and maybe add a few more envelopes/LFO's ... two of the current LFO's are global... I don't understand why they did not make three LFO's per voice since the synth has 3 oscillators...

Isn't the dual filter mode new? There are 4 LEDs next to the filter knob instead of 3.

Is it dual or have they added a notch shape?

Dual according to the brochure above. No mention of notch mode.

So it does! I missed that.

By the way, yes, I’m up for meeting up tomorrow. It’s shaping up to be a pretty exciting day. 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 08, 2019, 06:38:10 AM
By the way, yes, I’m up for meeting up tomorrow. It’s shaping up to be a pretty exciting day.

I sent you a PM.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 08, 2019, 07:59:54 AM
By the way, yes, I’m up for meeting up tomorrow. It’s shaping up to be a pretty exciting day.

I sent you a PM.

Received and replied with my number.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 08, 2019, 08:02:40 AM
There's more info on page 10 of this Superbooth brochure:
https://www.zampler.de/upload/Beat_Sooper_2019.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1L74ZdZ_Toa9Gt8Pwe2H3AfZFziMzn9RScnd-1DIf5XmXLT5tXAQkbAV0

It's very clear from the text, that this is "simply" two PEAKS put together under one hood... basically the same as a REV2 which is also two synths under the hood... each part has it's own FX and it's own output... just like the REV2.

I wonder if inside there is simply two separate PEAK boards with a common interface board and a few bells and whistles.

no matter what, it's exactly what the PEAK should have been from the start in my opinion... this synth seems to be perfect if they just add a Pan destination for the Mod Matrix, and maybe add a few more envelopes/LFO's ... two of the current LFO's are global... I don't understand why they did not make three LFO's per voice since the synth has 3 oscillators...

It’ll be interesting to see if that is the case or whether voices are freely assignable. I also wonder if there’s polyphonic unison.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 08, 2019, 02:22:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFiA-XFtBQ&fbclid=IwAR26OKP4xkNeXbDbu5OESU3Z6l6xVFERWdWEXxjm-9HOOYoQQZ6uijgXzJc

It seems that it can allocate the voices, and is not hardwired like the REV2... if you look at the assignment LEDs in this video, they change color (red/blue) depending on what part a voice is playing, and both top and bottom row can be both colors.

I'm REALLY hooked on this thing... think this will definitely be my next purchase... Guess I'll have to change plans on how many keyboards I have in my studio... probably will get a 4 synth stand instead of two tabletop module stands... those darn keybeds!  ;D
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on May 08, 2019, 07:16:05 PM
especially when it comes to the audio quality...
That is what I said. 

Anyhow, the Summit seems like a good middle ground for those with only one synth. I have all the VCO goodness I need, therefore I'm looking for a gloriously digital (albeit knobby) synth. Unless you can point me to some examples of the Peak's wavetable capabilities sounding as out there as the Blofeld for example, then perhaps you would like to post an example of your own instead. It would certainly speak louder than mere words.

P.S. Thanks in advanced if you decide to take up my request.  ;)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 09, 2019, 01:38:40 AM
especially when it comes to the audio quality...
That is what I said. 

Anyhow, the Summit seems like a good middle ground for those with only one synth. I have all the VCO goodness I need, therefore I'm looking for a gloriously digital (albeit knobby) synth. Unless you can point me to some examples of the Peak's wavetable capabilities sounding as out there as the Blofeld for example, then perhaps you would like to post an example of your own instead. It would certainly speak louder than mere words.

P.S. Thanks in advanced if you decide to take up my request.  ;)

Maybe if you give me some links to the wavetable sound you like, it would be more of a challenge for me, because then I have a reference point if I decide to take you up on the request :)

I definitely feel that the PEAK is up there with the Blofeld though... the only disadvantage is that you cannot create your own wavetables (at least not yet) ... if you compare the sound of the Wavetables with Blofeld and the earlier 8bit waveforms of the Microwaves, the major difference is that the Blofeld is much smoother, has greater bit depth in the waveforms and has better anti aliasing algorithms.

With PEAK it's the same, but the high 24Mhz FPGA speed of processing completely eliminates aliasing and other artifacts in especially the higher pitch range, something that is not the case with the Microwaves for example... especially when the waveforms have many high harmonics in them... on Microwaves the sound gets really harsh and digital... I think they solve this somewhat on the Blofeld via bandlimiting or something, but Blofeld does not run at 24MHz speed internally... on most digital synths (also non wavetable) I often hear aliasing in the higher registers... but not with PEAK because of the high internal sample rate... if I choose a harmonically rich wavetable (like a pitched noise waveform), then when I play higher and higher, I hear no aliasing... on some waveforms instead the volume start to drop out, but rather that, than a bunch of hissy screaming aliasing noise.

even though PEAK has now got 60 wavetables, I'd still like to be able to create my own, or rather be able to select the five waveforms that PEAK internally is morphing between, from an internal bank of waveforms... that would allow more timbral variations, and still not make it overly important to import you own waveforms... say... an internal ROM bank of 256 waveforms where you could choose the five you want to morph between...

So there is still room for improvement regarding wavetables on PEAK... for sure... but the audio quality I have no problem with, that's for sure :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 09, 2019, 02:06:04 AM
I really have to think about a Matriarch now... it seems to be a similar price point in €. If I buy this and don't sell my PEAK, i basically would have three of them... that would have cost me about 3.400€ in total. What's the price of a Moog One?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 09, 2019, 02:08:01 AM
I really have to think about a Matriarch now... it seems to be a similar price point in €. If I buy this and don't sell my PEAK, i basically would have three of them... that would have cost me about 3.400€ in total. What's the price of a Moog One?

And if Novation would just make both keyboard and modules polychainable, you would have a 24voice beast.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 09, 2019, 02:21:42 AM
I really have to think about a Matriarch now... it seems to be a similar price point in €. If I buy this and don't sell my PEAK, i basically would have three of them... that would have cost me about 3.400€ in total. What's the price of a Moog One?

And if Novation would just make both keyboard and modules polychainable, you would have a 24voice beast.

If that's the case, then all my other plans will die immediately. A 24-Voice PEAK ... hell yeah...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 09, 2019, 02:37:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdhNcEiYGiA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRvaSrstxQM
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 09, 2019, 03:19:53 AM
I really have to think about a Matriarch now... it seems to be a similar price point in €. If I buy this and don't sell my PEAK, i basically would have three of them... that would have cost me about 3.400€ in total. What's the price of a Moog One?

And if Novation would just make both keyboard and modules polychainable, you would have a 24voice beast.

If that's the case, then all my other plans will die immediately. A 24-Voice PEAK ... hell yeah...

I just asked Novation on their facebook presentation video of Summit about two things:

1. Do they have plans to make a module version of SUMMIT
2. Will they make PEAK and SUMMIT polychainable

The answer I got was what I expected... they do not have any current plans about these things, but would be glad to air the idea with the design team...

In other words; "we do not know... yet"

:)

I am not going to be holding my breath to be honest... I'll just have to fit the SUMMIT into my studio somehow, because keybeds always seem to end up being my "problem"... same thing with QUANTUM and PROPHET X... I have my two-synth table stand to the left of my V-Synth GT right now, and had planned to get another table section for my current table making it into a corner table where I could have two more table stands on the right of my GT... but I think it's probably more advantagous to drop that table section, and buy a 4 keyboard stand to place there instead... even if I was to place a module there they can always be mounted on the keyboard stand anyway... I'm tired of having to beg for modules to be honest... I WANT that SUMMIT!!!! ...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on May 09, 2019, 08:10:53 AM
Just watched the videos about the Summit. It looks like I might be buying yet another synth soon  :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on May 09, 2019, 09:41:17 AM
Those latest videos have peaked (sorry for the pun) my interest, whereas the Super 6 reveal video made me lose all interest. Still need to see what Sequential has up their sleeve, but if they don't manage to innovate enough, at two grand the Summit is looking attractive.

Maybe if you give me some links to the wavetable sound you like
I just want to hear more sounds out of it that are as far and away as possible from what you get with purely analog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl9rmPymE64
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 09, 2019, 10:46:38 AM
It seems that it can allocate the voices, and is not hardwired like the REV2... if you look at the assignment LEDs in this video, they change color (red/blue) depending on what part a voice is playing, and both top and bottom row can be both colors.

No voice allocation. It’s always 8/8. Red is single mode, blue is layered or split mode.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on May 09, 2019, 11:53:30 AM
One thing I wished more synths had is an on screen representation of filter envelopes etc. My Pro2 has this and I find it very useful. I know the Peak has sliders but I do wish they’d have the on screen view too
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on May 09, 2019, 12:13:31 PM
Red is single mode, blue is layered or split mode.
There's also a teelish (https://youtu.be/cRvaSrstxQM?t=277) color for B layer voice lights. Plus lavender/lilac (https://youtu.be/cRvaSrstxQM?t=218) buttons/wheels when editing both layers simultaneously.

One thing I wished more synths had is an on screen representation of filter envelopes etc. My Pro2 has this and I find it very useful. I know the Peak has sliders but I do wish they’d have the on screen view too
Agreed, especially since the slider settings don't usually represent the actual patch/layer settings. Also, does the Peak have categories? If not then that's another convenience that should be implemented.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 09, 2019, 01:00:45 PM
Red is single mode, blue is layered or split mode.
There's also a teelish (https://youtu.be/cRvaSrstxQM?t=277) color for B layer voice lights. Plus violet (https://youtu.be/cRvaSrstxQM?t=229) buttons/wheels when editing both layers simultaneously.

One thing I wished more synths had is an on screen representation of filter envelopes etc. My Pro2 has this and I find it very useful. I know the Peak has sliders but I do wish they’d have the on screen view too
Agreed, especially since the slider settings don't usually represent the patch/layer settings. Also, does the Peak have categories? If not then that's another convenience that should be implemented.

Yes it has categories. I had a good few plays on one today in Berlin.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 09, 2019, 01:20:39 PM
It seems that it can allocate the voices, and is not hardwired like the REV2... if you look at the assignment LEDs in this video, they change color (red/blue) depending on what part a voice is playing, and both top and bottom row can be both colors.

No voice allocation. It’s always 8/8. Red is single mode, blue is layered or split mode.

Yeah, I saw that too... it's exactly like the REV2 in terms of ... well.. everything except for the way multimode works... you do not have both layers saved into the same preset... which makes it even more PEAK compatible... and I was also right about the 12/24db cascade filter architecture--- I bet they can make that DUAL filter mode on PEAK as well with an update...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 09, 2019, 02:26:43 PM
After realizing that a preset does not include both parts, and that SUMMIT is also two hardwired synths like the REV2, there are actually only one feature I'd be missing compared to the PEAK, and that is the single play mode with 16 voices... if they made an update to PEAK that would allow polychaining two PEAKs, and added the dual filter mode in an OS update, then a PEAK would generally be just one half of the SUMMIT.

This means that layering becomes less important, as I could just as well layer a PEAK with the REV2... I cannot create a complete two layer preset on SUMMIT, if multimode is simply pointing to two single part presets... it works like the "old school way" with multis and presets... change a preset, and any multi that use that preset will now sound different... that wa the cool thing about REV2 because it has all in the same preset.

This makes me hesitate getting a SUMMIT, especially when there is only a keyboard version... I'll probably stick with my PEAK until a module SUMMIT eventually sees the light of day.... even if the dual filter mode is a hardware change and cannot be done on PEAK, it's still not enough I feel.

I really do like the SUMMIT... and it looks really really sexy too... it will be hard to resist, but I think it's best for me to wait and see what happens next from Novation... but damn, I'd like to have 16 voices to play with!
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 09, 2019, 02:38:44 PM
Yeah, I saw that too... it's exactly like the REV2 in terms of ... well.. everything except for the way multimode works... you do not have both layers saved into the same preset... which makes it even more PEAK compatible... and I was also right about the 12/24db cascade filter architecture--- I bet they can make that DUAL filter mode on PEAK as well with an update...

I also asked for you whether user waves will become an option. While they are aware that many users request it, they can’t guarantee whether it’ll happen.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 09, 2019, 03:05:54 PM
Yeah, I saw that too... it's exactly like the REV2 in terms of ... well.. everything except for the way multimode works... you do not have both layers saved into the same preset... which makes it even more PEAK compatible... and I was also right about the 12/24db cascade filter architecture--- I bet they can make that DUAL filter mode on PEAK as well with an update...

I also asked for you whether user waves will become an option. While they are aware that many users request it, they can’t guarantee whether it’ll happen.

It will probably also be a major firmware change to allow for that I think.... also there are advantages to not having user wavetables, especially when it comes to editors... presets will then be dependent on what user waves are uploaded just like with a sampler making the sharing of sounds more complex than if they are just ROM waves...

I would actually rather have a huge singe cycle waveform bank of maybe 1024 ROM waveshapes that was carefully chosen, and then expand the OS so that the five waveshapes it morphs between could be chosen between those 1024 waveforms... that would give a huge timbral potential, even if you cannot load your own waveforms... and to be honest... there is a limit to how different such waveforms can sound... with 1024 carefully chosen waveforms you should be rather picky if you could not find five waves that you like :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jazzygb1 on May 09, 2019, 08:20:20 PM
Yes I have to say this looks great - Novation's alternative to the Prophet 12! :)
Absolutely love my Prophet 12, so having another synth with similar modes of operation but from another manufacturer would be welcome

Absolute Music have it priced up on their website at £1899, so looks like it's reasonably priced too.
I can see me selling a few pieces of kit to help fund this.
Not my Prophet 12 of course, that's staying with me forever! :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: eXode on May 09, 2019, 09:48:41 PM
Filter

1 state variable OTA filter per voice
12/24dB slope
Low-pass / band-pass / high-pass / dual filter (separation of each 12dB filters)

Dual filter: LP > HP, LP > BP, HP > BP, LP + HP, LP + BP, HP + BP, LP + LP, BP + BP, and HP + HP

From: https://novationmusic.com/synths/summit
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: eXode on May 09, 2019, 09:52:04 PM
The description above with > and + indicate that the dual mode allows for both serial and parallell operation (LP + HP could be notch, btw).

It _might_ also mean that there's additional circuitry not available on the peak. But that is just speculation/me guessing. :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 10, 2019, 01:03:45 AM
After realizing that a preset does not include both parts, and that SUMMIT is also two hardwired synths like the REV2, there are actually only one feature I'd be missing compared to the PEAK, and that is the single play mode with 16 voices... if they made an update to PEAK that would allow polychaining two PEAKs, and added the dual filter mode in an OS update, then a PEAK would generally be just one half of the SUMMIT.

This means that layering becomes less important, as I could just as well layer a PEAK with the REV2... I cannot create a complete two layer preset on SUMMIT, if multimode is simply pointing to two single part presets... it works like the "old school way" with multis and presets... change a preset, and any multi that use that preset will now sound different... that wa the cool thing about REV2 because it has all in the same preset.

This makes me hesitate getting a SUMMIT, especially when there is only a keyboard version... I'll probably stick with my PEAK until a module SUMMIT eventually sees the light of day.... even if the dual filter mode is a hardware change and cannot be done on PEAK, it's still not enough I feel.

I really do like the SUMMIT... and it looks really really sexy too... it will be hard to resist, but I think it's best for me to wait and see what happens next from Novation... but damn, I'd like to have 16 voices to play with!

As far as I could tell from talking to the Novation guy, the multi mode stored both sounds as part of the preset. It is also possible to export one of the two sounds from a multi preset and store it as a single preset and vice versa.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on May 10, 2019, 01:53:29 AM
The description above with > and + indicate that the dual mode allows for both serial and parallell operation (LP + HP could be notch, btw).

It _might_ also mean that there's additional circuitry not available on the peak. But that is just speculation/me guessing. :)

I was told that the dual filter mode was modeled after the OSCar, meaning that it allows for creating two resonant peaks. Dual mode does not mean a combination of the other modes.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 10, 2019, 03:17:53 AM
I was just told by Novation themselves, after asking them, that the Filter in SUMMIT is different than PEAKs, and that dual mode cannot be done with a software update to PEAK... bummer... now I want SUMMIT again... I really would like all those dual filter modes.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 10, 2019, 04:33:12 AM
It's already listet at Thomann with high resolution pictures...

https://www.thomann.de/de/novation_summit.htm

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on May 10, 2019, 09:14:52 PM
Some awesome sounds. Love the DX7 type tones near the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-P5IPkxPyQ&lc=z23axh1yfxiwulbsbacdp433dnkufocbu2wr0wbgortw03c010c
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: eXode on May 11, 2019, 01:45:06 AM
The description above with > and + indicate that the dual mode allows for both serial and parallell operation (LP + HP could be notch, btw).

It _might_ also mean that there's additional circuitry not available on the peak. But that is just speculation/me guessing. :)

I was told that the dual filter mode was modeled after the OSCar, meaning that it allows for creating two resonant peaks. Dual mode does not mean a combination of the other modes.

I don't quite understand your point. The dual filter modes I posted was taken directly from Novation's home page.

Dual filter: LP > HP, LP > BP, HP > BP, LP + HP, LP + BP, HP + BP, LP + LP, BP + BP, and HP + HP

The fact that they use both > and + in their description indicate that i.e. LP > HP means LP into HP, while i.e. LP + HP indicate that LP and HP will run in parallel, when using that specific dual filter mode.

So you can run the filter either as a 12 or 24 dB LP/BP/HP or you can run it in 12 dB dual filter mode with the configurations listed above.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: eXode on May 11, 2019, 05:16:19 AM
https://youtu.be/DtuT_IYLtJ4?t=483

8 min in this video they start to go through the filter details, and at about 9 min you see the menu items and he describes the combinations a little.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 11, 2019, 02:59:38 PM
The more I hear from the Summit, the more I realize that I don't really need it. It really sounds like a PEAK and besides the new filter and double voice count, there's not much that really would justify the upgrade. I'm pretty happy with the 8-voices at the moment and think I will stick to the original plan of buying a Matriarch to broaden my sonic palette, since I don't have any Moogish sythesizers yet (or perhaps finally buy a P6 module which I'm in love with since it's available). I also like the Fatar keybed of the Grandmother/P6/Rev2 way better than the Novation keybed in the SL MKIII which I tested at Thomann last week.

So I will also hope for a cheaper module version in the future. Otherwise I can hardly justify the upgrade.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 12, 2019, 01:23:56 AM
The more I hear from the Summit, the more I realize that I don't really need it. It really sounds like a PEAK and besides the new filter and double voice count, there's not much that really would justify the upgrade. I'm pretty happy with the 8-voices at the moment and think I will stick to the original plan of buying a Matriarch to broaden my sonic palette, since I don't have any Moogish sythesizers yet (or perhaps finally buy a P6 module which I'm in love with since it's available). I also like the Fatar keybed of the Grandmother/P6/Rev2 way better than the Novation keybed in the SL MKIII which I tested at Thomann last week.

So I will also hope for a cheaper module version in the future. Otherwise I can hardly justify the upgrade.

Summit has the same keybed as the SL MKIII and, you’re right, it’s not as nice as the DSI/Moog Fatar ones.

The Moog One keybed is nice too.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 12, 2019, 05:43:06 AM
The more I hear from the Summit, the more I realize that I don't really need it. It really sounds like a PEAK and besides the new filter and double voice count, there's not much that really would justify the upgrade. I'm pretty happy with the 8-voices at the moment and think I will stick to the original plan of buying a Matriarch to broaden my sonic palette, since I don't have any Moogish sythesizers yet (or perhaps finally buy a P6 module which I'm in love with since it's available). I also like the Fatar keybed of the Grandmother/P6/Rev2 way better than the Novation keybed in the SL MKIII which I tested at Thomann last week.

So I will also hope for a cheaper module version in the future. Otherwise I can hardly justify the upgrade.

Basically the same conclusion I've reached... I'd certainly like to get a SUMMIT if in module form, but I do not want another keybed now that I've thought hard about it... the DUAL filter modes are what I'd really like for modulation capabilities, but it's not enough for me to get the whole keyboard package... I can easily layer the PEAK with my REV2 if I want more complicated sounds.

Still I think that SUMMIT is a stunning synth... it's a perfect synth for anyone wanting just ONE synth with a keybed... I do not think that it has been made in vain ... it's just not as attractive when you already have a PEAK.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 12, 2019, 02:03:57 PM
Still I think that SUMMIT is a stunning synth... it's a perfect synth for anyone wanting just ONE synth with a keybed... I do not think that it has been made in vain ... it's just not as attractive when you already have a PEAK.

Yeah, that's the point. The SUMMIT is an absolutely fabulous synth and I would also buy it for sure, if I hadn't the PEAK.

In principle I don't have a problem with buying more synth with keybeds. I have a lot of space and since I play live a lot it is very comfortable to have a keybed included. But I already have the Rev2 and a PC3 (which I only use as master keyboard at the moment... shame on me, because the VAST synthesis is very powerful and it sounds very good in general) that both have the Fatar keybeds I like, so I don't really need further synth keybeds. It's just that I don't want to play anything worse than what I already have. If a new synth has a keybed as good or better than the Fatar ones: fine, I'll buy it. But if it hasn't, then I would rather buy a module and use the PC3 as controller.

Btw. the PC3 (and all the other workstation synthesizers I use also) is a better master keyboard than most of the dedicated MIDI master keyboards I've tested so far. 16 independend zones which you can transpose, split, layer, mute, and configure all controllers to do what ever you like, with powerful sequencer and riff generator, etc. seems to be too much to handle for most master keyboards. I played an AKAI MPK261 for a year on stage, because it's weight is much lower than the PC3's. But I replaced it with the PC3 again for the coming shows this summer, because it was too limited in some ways. I just decided that I will start another thread on this, because I would be too much ;-)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on May 12, 2019, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: Razmo
.. it's a perfect synth for anyone wanting just ONE synth

Pretty much what I was saying earlier. Personally I'm looking for something that's more full-bore digital given what I already own. I've been looking at the Mutable Instruments Elements (https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/elements/) and would like to see a big knobby poly use physical modeling for its basis, as well as having customizable LFOs. Out of everything on the market, I'd buy a Quantum if I had that kind of disposable income. 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on May 12, 2019, 04:00:24 PM
Still I think that SUMMIT is a stunning synth... it's a perfect synth for anyone wanting just ONE synth with a keybed... I do not think that it has been made in vain ... it's just not as attractive when you already have a PEAK.

Yeah, that's the point. The SUMMIT is an absolutely fabulous synth and I would also buy it for sure, if I hadn't the PEAK.

In principle I don't have a problem with buying more synth with keybeds. I have a lot of space and since I play live a lot it is very comfortable to have a keybed included. But I already have the Rev2 and a PC3 (which I only use as master keyboard at the moment... shame on me, because the VAST synthesis is very powerful and it sounds very good in general) that both have the Fatar keybeds I like, so I don't really need further synth keybeds. It's just that I don't want to play anything worse than what I already have. If a new synth has a keybed as good or better than the Fatar ones: fine, I'll buy it. But if it hasn't, then I would rather buy a module and use the PC3 as controller.

Btw. the PC3 (and all the other workstation synthesizers I use also) is a better master keyboard than most of the dedicated MIDI master keyboards I've tested so far. 16 independend zones which you can transpose, split, layer, mute, and configure all controllers to do what ever you like, with powerful sequencer and riff generator, etc. seems to be too much to handle for most master keyboards. I played an AKAI MPK261 for a year on stage, because it's weight is much lower than the PC3's. But I replaced it with the PC3 again for the coming shows this summer, because it was too limited in some ways. I just decided that I will start another thread on this, because I would be too much ;-)

I have my eye on the new PC4 myself.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on May 12, 2019, 10:58:45 PM
Quote from: Razmo
.. it's a perfect synth for anyone wanting just ONE synth

Pretty much what I was saying earlier. Personally I'm looking for something that's more full-bore digital given what I already own. I've been looking at the Mutable Instruments Elements (https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/elements/) and would like to see a big knobby poly use physical modeling for its basis, as well as having customizable LFOs. Out of everything on the market, I'd buy a Quantum if I had that kind of disposable income.

Quantum is also the one that I'd go for ... if they made one in a module version though... it's the only thing besides the Minilogue XD module that currently has synthesis methods I do not currently have... I just wish that the Minilogue module was at least 8 voices in itself without the need for polychaining... I just do not believe the QUANTUM will ever be made in a module version I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on May 12, 2019, 11:05:30 PM
I have my eye on the new PC4 myself.

I got the same feelings about PC3 -> PC4 as with the PEAK -> SUMMIT. I don't think it's worth the money if you already have the predecessor. But should my PC3 ever die, I will buy a PC4 (or a used PC3K) for sure. I have the 61-key version at the moment and it's still my favorite small gig/living room concert/"unplugged gig" instrument. I sometimes play with some friends of mine who run an unplugged trio and play very small gigs. It's perfekt for that use case, since I don't have to carry around very much and have some nice piano and orchestral sounds to add to the acoustic guitar and base. Or sometimes I play gigs with my workstations only... In my opinion Kronos and PC3/4 are the most powerful workstations out there and make a very good combo. And last but not least: The PC3 is my backup solution, should my Kronos ever die on stage. I don't program everything twice, but all songs which I already programmed and played on it before I had the Kronos are still there and I just would have to do a short rewiring on stage and the show could go on. For the songs that I did first in my personal Kronos-era I could still play some standard presets, which would not at all sound like my usual sounds, but would at least rescue the evening. But again, I could start another thread about the PC3/4 thing ;-)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on July 31, 2019, 12:02:50 AM
When this synth was first announced I was convinced that I’d be being one at some point in the future. But now, having seen quite a few demos of patches I’m not so sure. What I’ve heard so far, there’s nothing that probably can’t be done on my Rev2.

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on July 31, 2019, 12:28:25 AM
When this synth was first announced I was convinced that I’d be being one at some point in the future. But now, having seen quite a few demos of patches I’m not so sure. What I’ve heard so far, there’s nothing that probably can’t be done on my Rev2.

You bet it can do stuff your REV2 cannot... that's a 100% certainty... the digital front end allow for so many more varied timbres because of the Wavetables, and the FM capabilities. The problem is that people simply have not yet programmed the sounds that will convince you of this, and Novation has a reputation for always putting typical EDM type sounds in their factory pathces.

Never trust a synth on it's factory sounds... look at it's engine instead, and it's flexibility. I have PEAK and REV2, and I can certainly say that they complement each other quite nicely... yes they can both do a lot of the same territory, but both have their own thing as well that make it worth having both for me.

If you need to compare with a DSI instrument that comes close, it's probably much more the Prophet 12, and still, they also have enough differences that they would go well together (in my opinion).

One thing is certain... the moment I can see a way to fit a SUMMIT into my studio, it will be exchanged with my current PEAK... hopefully they'll do a module version of the SUMMIT, but my intuition tells me it'll never happen... unfortunately...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on July 31, 2019, 01:01:02 AM
When this synth was first announced I was convinced that I’d be being one at some point in the future. But now, having seen quite a few demos of patches I’m not so sure. What I’ve heard so far, there’s nothing that probably can’t be done on my Rev2.

You bet it can do stuff your REV2 cannot... that's a 100% certainty... the digital front end allow for so many more varied timbres because of the Wavetables, and the FM capabilities. The problem is that people simply have not yet programmed the sounds that will convince you of this, and Novation has a reputation for always putting typical EDM type sounds in their factory pathces.

Never trust a synth on it's factory sounds... look at it's engine instead, and it's flexibility. I have PEAK and REV2, and I can certainly say that they complement each other quite nicely... yes they can both do a lot of the same territory, but both have their own thing as well that make it worth having both for me.

If you need to compare with a DSI instrument that comes close, it's probably much more the Prophet 12, and still, they also have enough differences that they would go well together (in my opinion).

One thing is certain... the moment I can see a way to fit a SUMMIT into my studio, it will be exchanged with my current PEAK... hopefully they'll do a module version of the SUMMIT, but my intuition tells me it'll never happen... unfortunately...

Thanks for the reply, you’ve answered my doubts so I’ll wait for further reviews of it to see and hear all the possibilities:)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on August 02, 2019, 10:05:27 AM
Nick has got his hands on one and has posted this Friday Fun video. So I suspect it won't be too long before we get a review from him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RQeGRkeES0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RQeGRkeES0)

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on August 05, 2019, 11:15:11 AM
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2019/07/30/1000-free-patches-for-the-novation-peak-summit-synthesizers/

The digital sounds in these demos interested me more than anything I've heard prior from the Peak. This actually has me quite interested in the Summit.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on August 19, 2019, 08:21:06 AM
The Summit review is now available on  Sonicstate
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on August 19, 2019, 10:08:08 AM
The Summit review is now available on  Sonicstate

I forgot to put the link to the video !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YHZXq1c6tk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YHZXq1c6tk)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on August 19, 2019, 02:56:57 PM
Am I the only one who feels it was a completely missed opportunity not to name this synth "Twin Peaks"?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on August 19, 2019, 03:00:03 PM
Am I the only one who feels it was a completely missed opportunity not to name this synth "Twin Peaks"?

Maybe a copyright issue. You'd have to ask David Lynch.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on August 19, 2019, 03:46:11 PM
Am I the only one who feels it was a completely missed opportunity not to name this synth "Twin Peaks"?

Maybe a copyright issue. You'd have to ask David Lynch.

I still wouldn't have an answer. lol
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on August 19, 2019, 11:19:10 PM
It's so obvious a name, that it cannot be anything else but a copyright issue in my opinion... either that, or the developers figured out that this is what everyone would call it, so they found another name... if you think of it, Twin Peaks was referencing two mountain peaks... and Summit has two mountain peaks in it's logo... which to me hints at the resemblance to Twin Peaks... if this was a joke, or simply copyright reasons i cannot say, but I do think there is a connection...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on August 20, 2019, 06:18:46 AM
The name "Twin Peaks" is a registered trademark of Lynch/Frost Productions. The Twin Peaks logo is copyrighted by Lynch/Frost Productions. Unless you have lots of extra cash to burn, it's better to avoid any legal conflicts when naming a new product.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: blewis on August 20, 2019, 08:30:33 AM
I’ll use gaffer tape to label mine “Twin Peaks” then I’ll relabel Novation as “Agent Cooper” or “Cherry Pie” or “White Lodge”.

I’ll also do what I did on my Peak - use gaffer tape and silver sharpie to label the I/O on the top since they thought that utility silk screen would mess with their visuals.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on August 20, 2019, 08:39:57 AM
I’ll use gaffer tape to label mine “Twin Peaks” then I’ll relabel Novation as “Agent Cooper” or “Cherry Pie” or “White Lodge”.

 ;D

In that case you’ll definitely need a cup holder, too.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Shaw on August 20, 2019, 01:15:18 PM
I’ll use gaffer tape to label mine “Twin Peaks” then I’ll relabel Novation as “Agent Cooper” or “Cherry Pie” or “White Lodge”.

 ;D

In that case you’ll definitely need a cup holder, too.
Nothing that can’t be accomplished with duct tape.   :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on August 20, 2019, 01:24:26 PM
I’ll use gaffer tape to label mine “Twin Peaks” then I’ll relabel Novation as “Agent Cooper” or “Cherry Pie” or “White Lodge”.

 ;D

In that case you’ll definitely need a cup holder, too.
Nothing that can’t be accomplished with duct tape.   :)

As long as it holds a damn good coffee that's alright.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Shaw on August 20, 2019, 01:29:43 PM
I’ll use gaffer tape to label mine “Twin Peaks” then I’ll relabel Novation as “Agent Cooper” or “Cherry Pie” or “White Lodge”.

 ;D

In that case you’ll definitely need a cup holder, too.
Nothing that can’t be accomplished with duct tape.   :)

As long as it holds a damn good coffee that's alright.
…  or a nice Deutscher Bier Stein.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: blewis on August 20, 2019, 06:58:33 PM
I missed an obvious, but cooler name suggested by someone on Sonic State's Youtube video: Laura Palmer. That would look pretty frickin' rad taped over Novation if you ask me. I could transport the Summit to gigs wrapped up in plastic.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Paul Dither on August 21, 2019, 03:37:03 AM
I missed an obvious, but cooler name suggested by someone on Sonic State's Youtube video: Laura Palmer. That would look pretty frickin' rad taped over Novation if you ask me. I could transport the Summit to gigs wrapped up in plastic.

I did this a while back on the PX. The patch was basically based on the first bars of Julee Cruise's Falling (the muted tremolo guitar plus e-piano, which in my case evolved into a synth pad). I didn't post a recording of that for obvious copyright reasons.

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on August 21, 2019, 03:44:46 AM
I missed an obvious, but cooler name suggested by someone on Sonic State's Youtube video: Laura Palmer. That would look pretty frickin' rad taped over Novation if you ask me. I could transport the Summit to gigs wrapped up in plastic.

I did this a while back on the PX. The patch was basically based on the first bars of Julee Cruise's Falling (the muted tremolo guitar plus e-piano, which in my case evolved into a synth pad). I didn't post a recording of that for obvious copyright reasons.

See around 3:33

https://youtu.be/e_UbIdDXhkk
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on August 22, 2019, 07:08:23 AM
I‘ve been at Thomann today and luckily there was a guy from Novation who showed the SUMMIT to the employees and the few customers in the showroom.

It sounds exactly like a PEAK in my opinion, which is really nice. The additional knobs on the front end especially for fm and the arpeggiator are a great plus. The keybed is not as good as a Fatar one, but still very nice and playable. Perhaps I will sell my PEAK for the SUMMIT, because it would simplify my setup a lot. The internal power supply is a great upgrade, too. And since it‘s (more than) two PEAKs I would get another synth engine on top.

The guy (I didn‘t ask for his name) told us, that it will be shipping to Germany in October. I asked him what will happen, if there‘s an unregulated Brexit at the end of this year. Novation seems to have thought of this scenario and found possible solutions so that no delays in delivery to the European market should occur.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on August 22, 2019, 07:16:00 AM
I‘ve been at Thomann today and luckily there was a guy from Novation who showed the SUMMIT to the employees and the few customers in the showroom.

It sounds exactly like a PEAK in my opinion, which is really nice. The additional knobs on the front end especially for fm and the arpeggiator are a great plus. The keybed is not as good as a Fatar one, but still very nice and playable. Perhaps I will sell my PEAK for the SUMMIT, because it would simplify my setup a lot. The internal power supply is a great upgrade, too. And since it‘s (more than) two PEAKs I would get another synth engine on top.

The guy (I didn‘t ask for his name) told us, that it will be shipping to Germany in October. I asked him what will happen, if there‘s an unregulated Brexit at the end of this year. Novation seems to have thought of this scenario and found possible solutions so that no delays in delivery to the European market should occur.

I was a bit disappointed with the keybed when I played it at Superbooth, though the synth itself is cool.

If there is a no-deal Brexit then, fear not, Sterling will crash and you’ll be able to come over and buy one here for next to nothing, though people might try and kill you for food if things get really bad!

I really hope it doesn’t come to that though!
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on August 22, 2019, 07:34:08 AM
If there is a no-deal Brexit then, fear not, Sterling will crash and you’ll be able to come over and buy one here for next to nothing, though people might try and kill you for food if things get really bad!

I really hope it doesn’t come to that though!

If I can trust the Novation guy, I just have to bring some toilet paper. Seems the British toilet paper industry doesn‘t have own resources and does import everything you need to build such a basic thing. I started laughing when he told me that, but now, some hours later, I think this really shows what a great mess this whole Brexit thing is. So I think the probability for getting killed for food will be increasing.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on August 22, 2019, 07:36:42 AM
I suppose we could always use our bank notes for toilet paper as they’ll be worthless; or we could’ve done if they weren’t plastic-coated now!
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: maNŒuvre on August 22, 2019, 08:10:15 AM
I was just told by Novation themselves, after asking them, that the Filter in SUMMIT is different than PEAKs, and that dual mode cannot be done with a software update to PEAK... bummer... now I want SUMMIT again... I really would like all those dual filter modes.
That’s a bummer. I was thinking about buying a Peak and looking forward to a dual filter mode update, potentially. Nick Batt’s demo showed the dual filter mode and it looked enticing!
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on August 22, 2019, 08:40:55 AM
I was just told by Novation themselves, after asking them, that the Filter in SUMMIT is different than PEAKs, and that dual mode cannot be done with a software update to PEAK... bummer... now I want SUMMIT again... I really would like all those dual filter modes.
That’s a bummer. I was thinking about buying a Peak and looking forward to a dual filter mode update, potentially. Nick Batt’s demo showed the dual filter mode and it looked enticing!

This is why I'm god damned irritated that they did not make a Summit module as well... we can only HOPE they will make one if the keys version is well recieved... though I do believe that will be the case... crossing my fingers...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Tonda on August 23, 2019, 10:05:47 AM
This is why I'm god damned irritated that they did not make a Summit module as well... we can only HOPE they will make one if the keys version is well recieved... though I do believe that will be the case... crossing my fingers...

Well, I did my best, I ordered a Summit  :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: blewis on August 23, 2019, 05:41:56 PM
I preordered a Summit today.

Probably means Sequential will announce something next week.  :P
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Shaw on August 23, 2019, 06:15:55 PM
I preordered a Summit today.

Probably means Sequential will announce something next week.  :P
8)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on August 23, 2019, 09:31:47 PM
I preordered a Summit today.

Probably means Sequential will announce something next week.  :P

Hmm you know I actually feel they might not do anything like the Summit. I actually think it's either going to be a mono synth (based on INHALT'S "I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW" INSTAGRAM POST) or perhaps not even a synth/drum machine at all but a multitrack midi sequencer.

I just can't see them doing something so similar to the Summit this close to it's release....unless they do an updated Poly Evolver with both analog and digital oscillators but with more polyphony and effects....knowing my luck though it won't be blue haha
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: raffor on November 13, 2019, 02:01:01 PM
My Summit arrived last weekend. After 6 years of Prophet-12 I thought to try something new.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on February 07, 2020, 07:57:37 AM
I preordered a Summit today.

Probably means Sequential will announce something next week.  :P

Hmm you know I actually feel they might not do anything like the Summit. I actually think it's either going to be a mono synth (based on INHALT'S "I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW" INSTAGRAM POST) or perhaps not even a synth/drum machine at all but a multitrack midi sequencer.

I just can't see them doing something so similar to the Summit this close to it's release....unless they do an updated Poly Evolver with both analog and digital oscillators but with more polyphony and effects....knowing my luck though it won't be blue haha

Well it turned out our speculation from August was right about the mono.   Hopefully Sequential does eventually put out a big poly.  Meanwhile I've been eyeballing the Summit for some time now.  From what I could gather from watching videos, I felt the Summit was the best poly to come out in recent times in terms of both sounds and features offered for cost.  I took the plunge and sold some equipment I wasn't using much.  So,  I'm only three days in, but I have a lot of nice things to say about this instrument.  I was worried it would overlap my P12 too much, but that's not the case.  Both have their strong points.  More to follow.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on February 07, 2020, 08:01:18 AM
I preordered a Summit today.

Probably means Sequential will announce something next week.  :P

Hmm you know I actually feel they might not do anything like the Summit. I actually think it's either going to be a mono synth (based on INHALT'S "I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW" INSTAGRAM POST) or perhaps not even a synth/drum machine at all but a multitrack midi sequencer.

I just can't see them doing something so similar to the Summit this close to it's release....unless they do an updated Poly Evolver with both analog and digital oscillators but with more polyphony and effects....knowing my luck though it won't be blue haha

Well it turned out our speculation from August was right about the mono.   Hopefully Sequential does eventually put out a big poly.  Meanwhile I've been eyeballing the Summit for some time now.  From what I could gather from watching videos, I felt the Summit was the best poly to come out in recent times in terms of both sounds and features offered for cost.  I took the plunge and sold some equipment I wasn't using much.  So,  I'm only three days in, but I have a lot of nice things to say about this instrument.  I was worried it would overlap my P12 too much, but that's not the case.  Both have their strong points.  More to follow.

I’ve been looking hard at this one too but am still holding out for a 5-octave poly from Dave as I love the way his mod matrix works - so easy to program. The Summit was a bit more menu-based.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on February 07, 2020, 09:37:50 AM
The only thing I need in my setup is a digital front-end poly, so when a Summit came up new for the same price as the Pro 3 standard edition that I pre-ordered, I jumped on it instead. Not sure when mine will be in though... I suspect my only regret will be if Sequential announces a P12 successor with SSI filters soon.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on February 07, 2020, 10:38:50 AM
I love the dual filters mode on the Summit where you can adjust the spread between them.  There is a little more menu depth, but not sure how else they'd fit everything in.  There's lots of knobs already.    Only thing that struck me odd so far was that the aftertouch is really stiff.  Maybe they will make a curve adjustment on an OS update.   Need to take up rock climbing or something like that to strengthen my fingers enough to engage it ;)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on February 07, 2020, 11:10:20 AM
Actually, I liked the PEAK when I had it, and I really would like to see them make a desktop version of SUMMIT... But it will probably never happen... I still need a third poly to layer with my Quantum... I could go for the PEAK again, but I honestly want the dual filters and 16 voices.

So I will just have to wait for the next 16v polysynth that is either a hybrid or analog.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: narkosys on February 16, 2020, 03:34:35 PM
I am contemplating between the Rev2 and the Summit. 

The Rev2 seems to invite you to play it, it has that sexy look.  The Summit seems to look plasticky and cluttered.  But looks do not make the sounds.  The Rev2 has that Fatar keybed where as the Summit has a keybed of somewhat unknown origin. 

For most of the demos that I have seen on the Rev 2, the players seem to use god awful high pitch noise sounds as well as presets reminiscent of the 80s.  I have already lived through that hell of a decade and I really don't want to go back.  I know that some of that is the awful YouTube compression but part of me is wondering if that is all the Rev2 can do in terms of how it sounds.   

I have not been able to find a lot of good Summit videos that demonstrate its sonic capabilities so I am not 100% sure of what it can do.  I do know that the FPGA chips allows you to also do FM and wavetable synthesis.  I am new to this type of deep programming on a synth so this could be a great learning opportunity for me.  Also the three oscillators are a big plus.

As much as I want to go to my local store and try them, I live in the mountains and the nearest stores large enough to maybe carry both are a good 6 hour drive away, one way, through said mountains.  Unfortunately they might carry one or the other at any time but not both (this is from checking their websites and seeing if they have any in stock).

I am looking for deep lush sounds that I can use to make pads as well as play more complex pieces such as those found in the Baroque and Classical eras.  Unfortunately the Moog One is way, way, WAY out of my budget.

I currently have a Kronos which has some great mono and poly engines but it I prefer the tactile feel of turning knobs to create and modulate the sounds.  I am a beginner in this type of synthesis, and as much as I could go with something like the Minilogue Xd, I don't buy and sell my synths like things on the stock market.  I tend to keep them for life which is why I do a lot of research before finally pulling the plug.  My plan is to have the Kronos, a poly synth, and a mono such as the Matrix Brute.

In the end, I am wondering what everyone's impressions are concerning either of these synths, especially those who have owned, or tried, both.  Any pointers to some good videos that really showcase what these boards can do sonically would be much appreciated.             
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on February 16, 2020, 03:37:10 PM
I am contemplating between the Rev2 and the Summit. 

The Rev2 seems to invite you to play it, it has that sexy look.  The Summit seems to look plasticky and cluttered.  But looks do not make the sounds.  The Rev2 has that Fatar keybed where as the Summit has a keybed of somewhat unknown origin. 

For most of the demos that I have seen on the Rev 2, the players seem to use god awful high pitch noise sounds as well as presets reminiscent of the 80s.  I have already lived through that hell of a decade and I really don't want to go back.  I know that some of that is the awful YouTube compression but part of me is wondering if that is all the Rev2 can do in terms of how it sounds.   

I have not been able to find a lot of good Summit videos that demonstrate its sonic capabilities so I am not 100% sure of what it can do.  I do know that the FPGA chips allows you to also do FM and wavetable synthesis.  I am new to this type of deep programming on a synth so this could be a great learning opportunity for me.  Also the three oscillators are a big plus.

As much as I want to go to my local store and try them, I live in the mountains and the nearest stores large enough to maybe carry both are a good 6 hour drive away, one way, through said mountains.  Unfortunately they might carry one or the other at any time but not both (this is from checking their websites and seeing if they have any in stock).

I am looking for deep lush sounds that I can use to make pads as well as play more complex pieces such as those found in the Baroque and Classical eras.  Unfortunately the Moog One is way, way, WAY out of my budget.

I currently have a Kronos which has some great mono and poly engines but it I prefer the tactile feel of turning knobs to create and modulate the sounds.  I am a beginner in this type of synthesis, and as much as I could go with something like the Minilogue Xd, I don't buy and sell my synths like things on the stock market.  I tend to keep them for life which is why I do a lot of research before finally pulling the plug.  My plan is to have the Kronos, a poly synth, and a mono such as the Matrix Brute.

In the end, I am wondering what everyone's impressions are concerning either of these synths, especially those who have owned, or tried, both.  Any pointers to some good videos that really showcase what these boards can do sonically would be much appreciated.           

Try this one:
https://youtu.be/GttxY8pjSRM
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on February 16, 2020, 04:54:07 PM
I owned a REV2 16 voice and currently own a P6. They have the same TP/9S keybed, but for some reason the REV2 is too light for my taste and the P6 feels perfect. I talked to another owner of both and he thought the same thing. It might be that the springs are different, though no one at Sequential has ever confirmed this. I know this is the case with the Studiologic Sledge black edition. The MatrixBrute has a really cheap feeling keybed and it doesn't sound good to my ears. I have no clue why anyone would spend that much on it, especially with the Pro 3 out.

My recommendation considering what you already own is to go with a Sequential VCO synth to really embrace the reason to own analog. They're easier for beginners being that they feature a knob per function and have much larger sweet spots. Also, despite having less modulation options, actually have a wider timbral pallet due to the X-mod/poly-mod sections and state variable/analog high-pass filters (the REV2 has a digital high-pass that cost the layer's only effect). As for the P6 vs OB-6, I owned both briefly to compare the two, yet ended up keeping the P6. Although I would have been happy with either and both sound killer in mono as well.

As for the REV2 vs the Summit, as I said, I have a Summit on order, plus I don't miss the REV2 one bit. For now I can't comment on the Summit, but I think it will fit in nicely where the P6 is lacking. That is, for bells, digital basses, and vocal patches. The types of things your Kronos can handle if you don't mind menu-diving.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on February 16, 2020, 06:22:32 PM
My experience with PEAK and REV2 say, that none really makes up for the other... I felt that even if PEAK did great pads, the REV2 analog oscillators just smear the tone in a more pleasing way, but only if that is what you are after... That is why comparing digital vs. Analog front end gets pretty hard sometimes because I felt the PEAK outperformed REV2 in many other territories... I really wanted both to be honest... I have to stop judging between the digital vs analog frontend, both stand their own right.

Even judging from analog to analog, or hybrid to hybrid you get differencies that boils down to just that... Being different, both having their own place.

Problem comes when you can only choose one of them... I would hate to choose between REV2 and PEAK... Between REV2 and P6/OB6 too because even if the raw tone of the two later would probably be considered "better" it again boils down to what you want from them... REV2 will kick their butt in both polyphony and engine depth anytime, while the two others will make even REV2 sound sterile... Also, if you absolutely want the most advanced Curtis chip synth ever created, I think REV2/Prophet 12 will fight in vain to claim that title... Probably for a veeeery long time now, as that chip has had its 15 minutes with Sequential/DSI, and I do not think we will see another poly curtis synth from them ever again. So if you ever wanted to have a curtis poly in your rig, now could not be a better time, and no... You will need them both because both Prophet12 and REV2 share 1st place I feel. For different reasons.

Compared to REV2, PEAK and SUMMIT will sound more defined, more strong in controlling the cardboard of your speakers... It sounds more pristine... So much it cannot relax, and smudge in a more oldschool analog way... You may not notice alone, but as soon as you start playing REV2 pads, strings and atmospheres, you hear the differencies emidiately.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on February 16, 2020, 07:00:34 PM
Besides... If we compare the three big hybrids available right now this is my current pickings(I have had them all, except SUMMIT) :

1. PROPHET 12
2. QUANTUM
3. PEAK/SUMMIT

all would have their own thing making it worth having them all. They all sport different analog filters setting them appart in character emidiately. Sonically i like the PEAK/SUMMIT front end best because of the pristine FPGA front end they have... This really makes them special because they then have the lowest concern for aliasing, even at audio rate modulation like Ringmod, FM etc. The looser here is PROPHET 12... The most boring and unflexible of the analog filters... Best filter is undoubtedly the Quantum's... It does a great job at removing aliasing too, but it still has that typical Blofeldish tone to its frontend.

Enginewise, the winner is Quantum, hands down, no option for any arguing. Second is PROPHET 12 as its engine is just deeper than PEAK or SUMMIT, and has that audio rate mod matrix... Unfortunately PROPHET 12, suffer from a rough tone when you start to audio rate modulate things because its update frequency is simply too slow to handle aliasing well enough... Still, it does not sound bad, it is just something to notice.

So all in all... If Quantum had just had an FPGA front end with the pristine quality of the SUMMIT or PEAK, then Quantum would have wiped the others off in about any category imaginable.

So my order of these three would be 1. QUANTUM, 2. SUMMIT, 3. PEAK, 4. PROPHET 12.

In categories:

Front end Audio quality: PEAK/SUMMIT
Front end flexibility: Quantum
Filter character: Quantum
Engine flexibility: Quantum
Polyphony: SUMMIT
Interface: Quantum
Physical Design: Quantum

also remember that PEAK is not dual timbral... This greatly diminish your sound design options.

Also, there are one more big hybrid, the Modal 002, but I never had a chance at owning one, so I cannot judge it properly.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on February 17, 2020, 08:46:26 AM
I am contemplating between the Rev2 and the Summit. 

The Rev2 seems to invite you to play it, it has that sexy look.  The Summit seems to look plasticky and cluttered.  But looks do not make the sounds.  The Rev2 has that Fatar keybed where as the Summit has a keybed of somewhat unknown origin......


Narkosys,

I just got done with a weekend marathon with my new Summit.  I can assure you there is nothing cheap or plasticky to the instrument in look or feel.  Yes, there is a lot of knobs, but to my delight.   This can be a very deep instrument and is a sound designers playground.   But that  deepness alone may be the reason there's not a ton of videos yet.  It's going to take some time for the good stuff to surface, just as it did back when P12 was new.  The presets are , well, like any synth I expect,  same ole stuff for the most part.  Some presets are very nice however, and musical.

Very versatile in sound, the filter spreading feature really opens up characters that would otherwise be buried by just HP or just LP for instance.  I'm still getting used to the layout but expect I'll have it down after a few more sessions.    Only real complaint I have is that with multilayer mode, it be nice to be able to copy a patch from layer A to B  or vise versa.  Hopefully an update will amend that ability.   The automatic OS updating and on-line librarian are simplest to use I've ever seen.  Novation seems savvy in this respect and I hope it becomes an industry standard.

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on February 28, 2020, 09:28:16 AM
Well... it's official... I'm now on the SUMMIT wagon instead of the PRO3 wagon ... at least for now.

Just ordered a SUMMIT, simply because I got tired of the delivery complications at Thomann... I'm not good with this level of uncertainty, and beside I really think it's better to have a poly synth to layer my Quantum with.

I will still need the analog oscillators and Ladder or SSI filter, so I certainly have my eyes on the PRO3 still, but for now it'll have to wait... that also means that I can watch the PRO3 mature with time, so that I know exactly what to expect when I get one in the future.

I will most likely be connecting my Quantum's AUX output to the inputs of the SUMMIT so that I sometimes can throw the Quantum thru the supperb FPGA reverb on the SUMMIT.

In fact I will be connecting the MIDI out of my Quantum to the SUMMIT MIDI input, so that I will be playing the SUMMIT via Quantum's TP8/S FATAR keybed... this is because I want to see the two synths as a whole, having two layers... Quantum have too few voices to allow for proper dual timbral sounds in my opinion, so now I can layer a 16/8 voice dual layer sound.

I will be layering sequenced sounds a lot with pads and drones, so this is very handy... but since both synths are dual timbral I can actually fire off four simultaneous sequences if I wanted to, at different sequence lengths etc... will be some fun polyrhythmic stuff.

If I want to play them separately it's also quick to set up, and by using USB MIDI I can also sequence them both from my DAW sequencer which may be handy for some rhythmic stuff that needs tight timing.

Now, to complete my TRIAD of synth, it would be really nice if Sequential did a polyphonic VCO/Wavetable synth (16 voices with 2VCO and 2Wavetable)) with the SSI chip that allow for several different configurations of the filter to get as much variation going as possible. An engine as deep as the PRO3 to top it off along with the FX. Then I think I may be satisfied with those three seen as one big 3 layer monster synth.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on March 02, 2020, 12:44:34 PM
Out of curiosity I was comparing P12 to Summit saw waves on the oscilloscope.  Actually spectrum and shape not much different.  Only when I got to low G and looked at the frequency spectrums side by side could I see a difference.  The P12 had a slightly more elevated db response between 1000-7000 Hz.  I did not see this difference at higher pitches.   To my ears, the Summit at that low G sounded "lower", or bassier, which corresponds to what I saw on the scope.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on March 18, 2020, 08:44:06 AM
Well I'm finally got out of the phase of trying to compare the Summit to other instruments, and instead, trying to determine what it's unique character will be.  Too early to tell.  Ever notice how that always takes a while to discover what a particular synths defining sound is?  It's like we don't recognize the fashion of the decade until the decade is 10-20 years gone.

OB 6 and Pro 2, PEK and Vermona MK2 just seem to gravitate to their own sound. Their fashions are very defined.    Then there is the P12, who's pallet seems so wide to me.  I'm still not sure I have my finger on it, though when I listen to some good recordings of p12 it does have a unique "bigness" to it.   

 I was expecting myself to be immersed in making double-layered pads on the Summit at first, but instead I've been gravitating to making rock lead keys, sound effects, stuff like that.  Not even sure why.    It seems to do pianos quite well.   With the "quarantine" going on now I suppose I'll have more of a chance at getting a video out there soon. 

I think when I ordered the Summit it was one of the last ones in the American outlets. There was like two left at GC.    Feel bad for razmo and all the other people waiting on this and other gear delayed by the virus.



Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on March 18, 2020, 09:00:02 AM
My problem is finding examples of it online that really showcase the digital side of its nature. We know it can do convincing analog tones, but I want to hear things that would not be possible with strictly analog gear or at least has its own character. I mean, it was pretty darn apparent even at the time during the 80s and 90s what the "fashion" of the decade was. Even if I tried to pinpoint it now, the fashion of the aughts (and 10s), would be no fashion at all. That's what I fear with the Peak/Summit. As I've said in another thread, I played an Esoniq ESQ-1 the other day and was immediately charmed by its character, which is something modern day equivalents seem to lack.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on March 18, 2020, 10:45:12 AM
I think the "problem" is that each instrument has such a plethora of capabilities now that they all sound the same because they all do everything.  Companies has given us what we wanted, and now we feel it's too much.  An instrument will have a character or personality due to what it cannot do, which will then limit it to a distinctive and recognizable sonic range.  A one-trick-pony could be a refreshing item in the midst of this abundance.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on March 18, 2020, 02:32:55 PM
My problem is finding examples of it online that really showcase the digital side of its nature. We know it can do convincing analog tones, but I want to hear things that would not be possible with strictly analog gear or at least has its own character. I mean, it was pretty darn apparent even at the time during the 80s and 90s what the "fashion" of the decade was. Even if I tried to pinpoint it now, the fashion of the aughts (and 10s), would be no fashion at all. That's what I fear with the Peak/Summit. As I've said in another thread, I played an Esoniq ESQ-1 the other day and was immediately charmed by its character, which is something modern day equivalents seem to lack.

Esq-1 is one very special sounding synth... I remember it clearly when I had it... It's just those dirty sample oscillators thru those CEM chips with lots of dirstorting gain stages that make it sound really organnic and special... what I call TRUE HYBRID SOUND (which few synths has that are hybrid).
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on March 18, 2020, 02:36:46 PM
I think the "problem" is that each instrument has such a plethora of capabilities now that they all sound the same because they all do everything.  Companies has given us what we wanted, and now we feel it's too much.  An instrument will have a character or personality due to what it cannot do, which will then limit it to a distinctive and recognizable sonic range.  A one-trick-pony could be a refreshing item in the midst of this abundance.

Exactly why I dropped the search for synths that would cover the few % QUANTUM does not... I found I don't need more flexibility, just more of the same to layer with Quantum for more complexity... still, no matter if all synth is equaly flexible, they all have something that dets them appart anyway, so it is just about finding those synths that you gel with.

To me PEAK was almost perfect when I had it... only problem being 8 voices... SUMMIT fixes that, and gives all those filter routings on top...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on March 18, 2020, 02:42:08 PM
Esq-1 is one very special sounding synth... I remember it clearly when I had it... It's just those dirty sample oscillators thru those CEM chips with lots of dirstorting gain stages that make it sound really organnic and special... what I call TRUE HYBRID SOUND (which few synths has that are hybrid).

Had the one I tried not been in awful condition, I would have bought it in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on March 21, 2020, 03:10:41 PM
Video of Summit

https://youtu.be/2c7sCgw7FwI
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: narkosys on March 26, 2020, 05:25:08 PM
Found a demo that really shows off what the Summit can do.  Nicely done.

I really like the sounds coming out of this synth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuFLF_V_TrE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuFLF_V_TrE)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on March 28, 2020, 12:28:53 PM
You know I was really starting to warm up to the Summit but honestly I really miss having an onboard sequencer. I know that might not be a big deal to people but just having the ability to have each piece of gear sequence itself rather than rely on a master sequencer is really inspiring. I actually decided to go for the Roland System 8 over the HydraSynth and Summit.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on March 28, 2020, 01:46:51 PM
The place I pre-ordered the Summit from has officially closed. I ended up doing a complete 180º on the Wave 2 and put my money down elsewhere on that instead. After finally really giving some Lead demos a listen, I came to the conclusion that Nord offers the exact type of digital sounds I've been looking for.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on March 29, 2020, 12:37:34 AM
I keep watching reviews of the Summit but then there's one thing that keeps putting me off, the fact that I can't see my envelopes on screen. The Pro2 has spoiled me in that respect and I really miss seeing the shape on screen when using other synths.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Razmo on March 29, 2020, 03:19:39 AM
You know I was really starting to warm up to the Summit but honestly I really miss having an onboard sequencer. I know that might not be a big deal to people but just having the ability to have each piece of gear sequence itself rather than rely on a master sequencer is really inspiring. I actually decided to go for the Roland System 8 over the HydraSynth and Summit.

All have a few shortcomings, and they even vary from user to user  ;)

For me it is the lacking note/mod sequencer, and the fact that neither PEAK or SUMMUT havde a dedicated pan position parameter, only a spread function a bit like the SEQUENTIAL ones... Other than those nithing really.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Shaw on March 29, 2020, 05:49:34 AM
You know I was really starting to warm up to the Summit but honestly I really miss having an onboard sequencer. I know that might not be a big deal to people but just having the ability to have each piece of gear sequence itself rather than rely on a master sequencer is really inspiring. I actually decided to go for the Roland System 8 over the HydraSynth and Summit.

Lobo, find one at a dealer a play it first.   The System 8 sounds fine, but the keybed feels like a toy.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on March 29, 2020, 09:43:20 AM
I've never really been a fan of it, but Roland touted ACB technology so hard that I presumed it would sound better than Zen-Core, which I assumed was simply less DSP intensive to add to the voice count. However, at least from the online comparisons that are up atm, the X/Xm clearly sounds more nuanced/authentic to my ears at least. It would be interesting to do the comparison in person if possible.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on March 29, 2020, 10:52:59 PM
You know I was really starting to warm up to the Summit but honestly I really miss having an onboard sequencer. I know that might not be a big deal to people but just having the ability to have each piece of gear sequence itself rather than rely on a master sequencer is really inspiring. I actually decided to go for the Roland System 8 over the HydraSynth and Summit.

Lobo, find one at a dealer a play it first.   The System 8 sounds fine, but the keybed feels like a toy.

Before the pandemic I actually tried one out in Toronto here. Keybed isn't great and the whole thing feels like plastic BUT the sound is still something special to me. Hard to place it really. It's the FM oscillators, the multiple filters and the interface that really just brings it home for me. I think too many people obviously use it to try and emulate the Jupiter and Juno synths but I have no interest in that. It's the System 8 engine where you'll find it's distinct voice. It's metallic but not overly harsh, it's cold but not brittle. I think it'll be the perfect synth to compliment my Prophet 6 and Prophet X.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: synthury on April 17, 2020, 03:45:24 AM
Hello out there,

First post in Sequential Forum.

I have a Summit on order since November 2019 (the delivery date is constantly being pushed back).

I bought in the meantime a Pro3 which is absolutely phenomenal.

Time goes by and I wonder if waiting for the Summit is justified, knowing that I could for almost the same budget buy a Peak and a Rev2, whose keyboard quality seems much better than the Summit.

What advice could you give me?
Cancel the Summit order and go with the Rev2+Peak combo?

The choices are so hard...

Thanks for your help!

Cheers,

S.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on April 17, 2020, 03:56:27 AM
Time goes by and I wonder if waiting for the Summit is justified, knowing that I could for almost the same budget buy a Peak and a Rev2, whose keyboard quality seems much better than the Summit.


I don't know where you're living, but the costs of a Rev2-8 and a PEAK are still about 800 € higher than what a Summit costs where I am living.

As an Rev2-16 and PEAK owner, I would not trade them for a Summit. They sound very good together and yes, the keybed of the Rev2 is far better than that of the Summit.

The only interesting thing of the Summit is the more advanced filter, with routing options, etc. ... but if you don't need that, I would go with the combination of the other two and definitely choose the Rev2-16. Even though it's a lot more pricey then.


Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on April 17, 2020, 10:05:30 AM
Synthury,

It depends on what you want to do. To me the main issue in your predicament would be deciphering whether or not sequencing is that important to you.  If not,  then the Summit is a very wide range synth that I would think could cover REV2 territory.   I had looked at getting a REV2, but I was already overdosing in sequencers ;)

  I'm not sure I agree with some of the comments about the keybed  being bad or having a "plastic" feel.   From my perspective there is nothing about the build on this synth that feels cheaply that way to me.  I'm comparing it to other brands I have and the DSI line I've owned.  It's all relative to each person I guess.  I know piano players like a stiffer heavier key.  Whereas I never played piano, so I do not.

I should mention that I was pretty critical of the Summit aftertouch at first, but have since learned some of that was my own fault in programming it.  I mean its still a little stiff,  but not much more so than many other synths.   I noticed if you place fingers in middle of key, versus the ends, there's a better response.  Its interesting , because I'm always disappointed in AT response on each of the instruments I've had, with exception of the PO8 and DM12.  Its entirely due to the keybed apparently, as when I hook up the Linn controller they all seem to respond well.

  In general, the Summit is warming on me.  I'm starting to figure out what it's niche might be (for me).  I think big pads, dreamy voicey stuff too.  Novation absolutely needs to modify the ability to create multi-layered patches though, whereas you can flip layer A/B with each other.  Also you should be able to import any single patch from elsewhere in the instrument memory to a multi layer patch.  This does not seem to be possible which is crazy.  in fact, so bothersome that you cant even copy layer B to layer A (from what I can figure out) that I haven't even been motivated to do multi- layer patches yet!  P12 has a much better grasp in this regard.  I would think an Summit OS update might fix this oversight.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on April 23, 2020, 01:03:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkLTDFsmwR0&feature=emb_title

Once again, incredible support by Novation! I wish more companies would take a page out of their book...  ;)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on April 23, 2020, 02:54:31 PM
That's really a great addition. And I'm happy they implemented it for the PEAK, too. Can't wait to do the update...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: narkosys on April 23, 2020, 03:34:05 PM
I agree.  That is a nice update.  Novation really wants my money doesn't it?  And to think I was going to be frugal (as well as lack of desk space) and was thinking of getting a Minilogue Xd. 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on April 24, 2020, 10:05:45 AM
 Despite already having this instrument, this addition came as a big surprise to me and really added an interest level.   Its what I've been seeking out for years now: a hardware synth that can import wave forms and ability to do that from any audio files without jumping thru hoops or multiple software.  Their wavetable editor is really easy to use and has some nice other things it can do...like additive harmonics and phase alteration.    last night I had mimicked a celtic harp from an audio file in like two minutes.  Almost feel like I'm cheating now with wave input being so easy ;)  You can sample different parts of the audio file by moving a cursor over it.  So, like on a clarinet, you can get the breathy attack as well as the drone.  Then use your misc. envelope to slide thru the subtle differences when you key it.

When I gotten the P12, I had always hoped that there would someday be an editor that would have the ability to swap out one of the on-board digital wave forms with user ones.  But that time seems to have come and went.  I had even considered looking at the PX for this ability, but that was more of a sampling deal which I didn't want to get into, or not yet at least.  Then there was Super 6 that had said they would offer this ability to import wave forms, but then I got tired of their videos repeating the same ole thing, yet nothing mentioning about that part of the product.  So I resolved to just stay content with my PEK, since that was the only means I had to import user waveforms in my quest to mimic various sounds.  As much as I loved PEK for this, it was limited in the audio replication ability of the digital oscillators on the higher end especially.  Just might need to make it down to the frog pond this weekend and record some spring peepers to start off my wave form library  :D

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on April 24, 2020, 12:13:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkLTDFsmwR0&feature=emb_title

Once again, incredible support by Novation! I wish more companies would take a page out of their book...  ;)

In regards to the ability to import samples, does this mean the audio sample is converted to a Wavetable or is it the raw sample that’s imported?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: OceanMachine on April 24, 2020, 01:19:08 PM
Converted into a wavetable.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on January 23, 2021, 04:12:09 PM
Hey Soundquest, how would you compare the Summit with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  Have you experimented with panning the Summit's output pairs in opposite directions for a Evolver-esque stereo depth?  Is one instrument warmer for rich pads than the other?  It seems from the outside as if a Summit would be a good substitute for a PEK.   
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: A Thousand Eyes on January 23, 2021, 05:55:32 PM
I think the P12 is a more apt comparison than the PEK. I've owned a Peak, Evolver, and P12 module. Both DSI instruments are dirtier and have more character. The Peak sounds great and has a much better layout than the other two, but the filter didn't strike me as anything special. Although I prefer it to the extremely bland Waldorf Quantum that I briefly owned. The PX stereo filters are the best of the bunch (in that hybrid field), but I don't prefer them to the P6, P5/P10, or OB-6 filters.

I'm going to wait for the P12 successor that hopefully has SSI2140 filters.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on January 23, 2021, 06:15:34 PM
I had a Prophet 12 for a short while, and I'd agree that the Summit resembles it in tonal character.  But the Poly Evolver is a most unique instrument.  It can certainly sound nasty if you ask it to, but it also is capable of the sweetest richness and warmth.  I've found it unexpectedly to be a very difficult instrument to replace, however hard I try.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on January 31, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
Hey Soundquest, how would you compare the Summit with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  Have you experimented with panning the Summit's output pairs in opposite directions for a Evolver-esque stereo depth?  Is one instrument warmer for rich pads than the other?  It seems from the outside as if a Summit would be a good substitute for a PEK.

Despite having the Summit for a quite a while now I really haven't pushed the experimentation envelope much yet.  I hope to be able to answer this better down the road.    I find the filter on the Summit being its strong point.  Just starting to play around with multi-layers. 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on April 27, 2021, 09:52:46 AM
I've been considering the Summit as a fitting replacement for my eight-voice Poly Evolver.  With the Summit's ability to create stereo patches with no parallel module needed, I don't see any other reasonably-priced instrument that could compare. 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on April 27, 2021, 10:06:11 AM
Well it would appear that they’re all part of the same family now with the acquisition of Sequential by the Focusrite group.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on April 27, 2021, 10:12:00 AM
That's the funny thing.  I was struggling with the idea of getting a non-Sequential poly synth, and now Novation is like the next door neighbor.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on April 27, 2021, 10:13:43 AM
That's the funny thing.  I was struggling with the idea of getting a non-Sequential poly synth, and now Novation is like the next door neighbor.

Yes indeed, it wouldn’t feel so bad now that it’s ‘part of the same clan’
 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on April 27, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Wow, First I hear of this acquisition.   Well at least its with a good company and I would imagine there will be symbiotic advantages. 

Sacred Synthesis.  From what I know of your tastes, and your current lineup, and if you were to replace that with something new and affordable,  the Summit really fits the bill.  Sure, some day that may all change if Sequential ever releases a full Poly in the likes of  your loved PO8/ PEK/P12/ and once considered Rev 2.  But I'm glad I didn't wait for that to happen and got the Summit when I did.  Despite the fine looking recent releases from Sequential, there is no guarantee that Sequential will do an instrument like what I'm envisioning (meaning to replace the PEK with all the trimmings).  So,  if that dream synth does ever come out from Sequential, then I always have the option to sell the Summit.

Speaking of selling,  I think I'm going to sell the Nord Lead 4.  I just don't use it much anymore.  The quad layers are really something impressive and that ability is unavailable on other hardware as far as I know.  Yet,  I found I rarely got above using two layers anyway.    The ease of  getting a good fm piano was its strong point.   Really all sorts of sounds were easily gotten on it.    My summary of it after owning it for quite a few years now would be that I think its designed more of a stage instrument perhaps.   I don't really have much bad to say about it other than lack of AT, and some odd key combinations to get into various settings.  Anyway, with the Summit, and now, the Hydrasynth-which I recently added, there is enough fm overkill ;)

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on April 27, 2021, 12:17:24 PM
I'm trying to update my whole set up, so this is a good period for deciding about the Summit.  I haven't heard a single video that explores the stereo possibilities for the two sets of outputs, but they certainly seem Evolver-esque.  The question is whether the Summit is lush enough.  It seems to be.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: timboréale on April 27, 2021, 04:56:47 PM
Personally I don't like the Peak nor Summit sound, I've written about this elsewhere so I won't repeat myself, but you may find it a little soulless even after extensive work. Or maybe pure and perfect without character ("angelic", perhaps? Not to do disservice to actual angels...) is what you want?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on April 27, 2021, 05:31:53 PM
I felt that way about the Prophet 12 after listening to videos for a few years; it seemed very dry, caustic, and sterile.  But then I was loaned one for a month and set it up using both sets of output jacks.  After some diligent programming, the difference was night and day.   

Regardless, tell me more about the Summit, if you can.  I'm interested in hearing about all positives and negatives.   
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: timboréale on April 27, 2021, 07:10:46 PM
Well I should be clear that my experience is largely with the Peak, but I played the summit enough pre-COVID restrictions to ascertain there wasn't any particular difference in the aspects which bothered me - at which point I was no longer interested in either form of the instrument.

I feel like the Summit/Peak oscillators are not at all like the P12s, which have a more organic charm to them. As I am myself trained in DSP and implement it professionally, my general sense is that imperfections *of specific types* are essential to a pleasing, "musical" quality of tone and other types of imperfections, or the absence of them entirely, create a more alien sense - at best merely bland or boring, at worst actively painful to some sensitive to such things. Nearly all of the sounds of nature are a combination of resonance, filtering, delay, and the interactions of these upon each other at audio rate or lower modulation frequencies. For instance, in a bell the multiple resonances of the structure as they vibrate interact with each other, and as the physical structure thus physically moves to create the oscillations, the resonant frequency of its key dimensions also changes - this is a resonant form of FM in a natural expression. We become thus accustomed to the abilities of natural materials to do this work, and nature tends to work with specific ratios, harmonicities, etc. which then communicate on a psychological level to our brain with various forms of meaning and emotion. Lacking such a connection we do not sense the same things, and can often find them "unnatural" in a not-pleasing manner. I am not speaking of noise - noise is quite natural in many instances, so is distortion, waveshaping, etc.

I say all of this because one of the things I have noticed about the ongoing "perfection" of digital oscillators and even digital filters (which I personally find very disinteresting - please do note that I don't mean good and beautiful music cannot be made from them - I have personally made "acoustic" and very pleasing timbres with my various Nord Leads) is that the more they strive for high bitrates and the avoidance of antialiasing and other properties via brute force (e.g. sample at such a high rate that the aliasing becomes inaudible, then either filter it out or don't care at all about it)  -- the more pure the oscillator sounds at first, but also the more boring it is without a significant amount of additional work to alter that perfection which was attained at such efforts to begin with. The opposite approach - designing a normal nyquist-rate or low-oversampling ratio (e.g. 2x or so) oscillator that doesn't care much about antialiasing - just sounds poor to begin with, but that is an obvious and unnatural variant and thus is more readily noticed and rejected. I don't have a perfect answer (there is none in the discrete-time world, I don't believe) but oscillators which run at roughly 48-96kHz and use careful mathematics rather than brute force for aliasing reduction have consistently caught my ear as "musical" in my estimation - though this is not a hard and fast rule, just something I notice in my own auditioning.

I suspect, only through a preponderance of experience, that this may be related to the fact that very high harmonics are often found in nature with quite a lot of complex variance (audio rate FM, I would suppose) when they do occur - not necessarily enough to be obvious, but enough that the additional sidebands caused by the variance are subtlely picked up. Nature is full of extremely subtle modulations like this and when they are not there we miss them. One of the issues, then, with extremely high bitrate oscillators is that in many cases they process their modulation at this high rate as well and often that means that artifacts caused by "lower fidelity" oscillator architectures are gone - and my core theory is that these artifacts of various kinds are a substitute for the complexity the ear expects to hear in the modulation of the fundamental timbre. In other words, rather than getting a pitch modulated at near-audio rate in steps (which cause artifacts on top of the fundamental and the modulating waveform), you get a pitch perfectly modulated in beyond-audio-rate which yields ONLY the exact (in the audio spectrum, at least) sidebands of the modulation, nothing more. This nothing more is the problem, not a feature, in my estimation - though again I must be quick to point out that any artifacting that might "solve" the problem is only a substitute for a natural complexity and not ideal. The artifacts can be of various natural or unnatural aspect and of course not all of them are pleasant or "musical".

Anyways, enough of the bloviating. You can see my point, I trust, that perfection in digital oscillators is not, in and of itself, any benefit without immense complexity in modulation, and that makes programming a great and natural feeling sound much more difficult and a process of greater effort (and in many ways undoes some of the point of having such oscillators in the first place) - and that for synths which have artifacts and other imperfections which *do* lean musical, often those can be preferable and a faster way to the core timbres that one might be looking for.

The Peak/Summit, to me, are exactly this: bland by nature, and while you *can* work hard to make them sound interesting (and, I won't say I've ever heard it, but I'll allow perhaps even "glorious" *might* be possible), there is nothing in them that makes them remotely worth that level of effort or investment for me, when I can get that and much more in spades in many other instruments (I even prefer the quick sounds I get from my Nord Lead 3, frankly, for at least some subset of the possible sounds I might want to make - though I'll give it to the Peak for strings over the Lead 3 - but I'd not choose either of them for strings, for instance, to begin with).

Onboard effects on a synth are not particularly valuable to me (although an onboard delay or 4 is most welcome, because I view delay as fundamental to a timbre and not an "effect" that is added onto it later), so the Peak/Summit's value there is of no interest to me. And their filters are certainly nothing to write home about - they are pleasant, competent filters. But again, lacking anything special.

Overall, while I think I am generally leaning towards the digital oscillator/analogue filter as a sort of ideal architecture for the stuff I find myself most appreciating, I don't find the Peak/Summit to offer a compelling argument.

Take all this with a large grain of salt or a glass of seawater as you prefer and know that it is one opinion and not gospel, as it were.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on April 27, 2021, 07:21:33 PM
Thanks for the mighty effort there!  You're preaching to the choir.  I happen to share many of the same views, but I have no immediate experience with the Summit.  I find sterility to be the worst sonic quality of all, so I'll keep your comments in mind.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on April 27, 2021, 10:56:34 PM
I believe Geosynths has released packs for the Peak which are also usable on the Summit. It might be worth a quick listen to some of his patches to get a feel for what sort of sounds he can get out of the Peak/Summit?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on April 28, 2021, 05:34:50 AM
Yeah, he's great at sound design.  But I don't think there's any question about the Summit's capabilities - not, at least, in my case.  It's only the overall tonal character that's in question, which is a very hard thing to judge online.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on April 28, 2021, 11:47:17 AM
 I'm pretty sure those videos or soundtracks will surface, if not already there, that will allow the Summit sound to speak for itself.    I too, was a little apprehensive whether I watched P12,  Peak, or even Summit videos early on.   I think I even commented negatively on the Peak when it first came out.   But the Summit, as well as the P12, sound is deep as you want them to be.  I know this now.

Also just another opinion in the stack....  The split filter ability on Summit is very nice.  Yes, the oscillators are very precise and sampled at high rate.  And yes, you do indeed notice this, but in a good way, especially up top where the traditional aliasing is not detectable.    But if you don't like intrinsic clean, Novation built in adjustable controls which are quite simple to use, to make this analog like or warm as you wish without working hard.  This feature became evident to me right away,  yet is used sparingly in some of the onboard patches.   It's located in the oscillator control section.  One control is like a drift and the other knob (that I cannot recall the name of) is like a phasing slop thing.  Any patch I would make would employ this feature since this is what I'm most used to I guess.

There's a lot of critiquing over sound quality of these newer instruments, no matter manufacturer.  I guess I get it,  that's what we do- like golfers would haggle over clubs ;)   But the unlevel playing field sometimes is that amps, headphones, speaker choice and even recording method that the reviewer uses to employ.  Unfortunately in the age of dying music store show rooms, we rely on youtube as the level field.  I kind of dread those videos done using just audio off of phone. ;)


Sacred Synthesis, you had a question on the stereo on Summit.  I haven't played with this much as I have not used the multi-layers all that much yet.  There was actually a youtube video out there a few months ago of an older gentleman explaining how to split between the 4 output jacks and layers to get a bigger stereo sound.  I see no reason multi-layering and panning cannot be done as same as on P12.  The spread knob, in the voice section, seems to provide a nice spacing of the voices.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on April 28, 2021, 01:10:47 PM
I'm pretty sure those videos or soundtracks will surface, if not already there, that will allow the Summit sound to speak for itself.    I too, was a little apprehensive whether I watched P12,  Peak, or even Summit videos early on.   I think I even commented negatively on the Peak when it first came out.   But the Summit, as well as the P12, sound is deep as you want them to be.  I know this now.

Also just another opinion in the stack....  The split filter ability on Summit is very nice.  Yes, the oscillators are very precise and sampled at high rate.  And yes, you do indeed notice this, but in a good way, especially up top where the traditional aliasing is not detectable.    But if you don't like intrinsic clean, Novation built in adjustable controls which are quite simple to use, to make this analog like or warm as you wish without working hard.  This feature became evident to me right away,  yet is used sparingly in some of the onboard patches.   It's located in the oscillator control section.  One control is like a drift and the other knob (that I cannot recall the name of) is like a phasing slop thing.  Any patch I would make would employ this feature since this is what I'm most used to I guess.

There's a lot of critiquing over sound quality of these newer instruments, no matter manufacturer.  I guess I get it,  that's what we do- like golfers would haggle over clubs ;)   But the unlevel playing field sometimes is that amps, headphones, speaker choice and even recording method that the reviewer uses to employ.  Unfortunately in the age of dying music store show rooms, we rely on youtube as the level field.  I kind of dread those videos done using just audio off of phone. ;)


Sacred Synthesis, you had a question on the stereo on Summit.  I haven't played with this much as I have not used the multi-layers all that much yet.  There was actually a youtube video out there a few months ago of an older gentleman explaining how to split between the 4 output jacks and layers to get a bigger stereo sound.  I see no reason multi-layering and panning cannot be done as same as on P12.  The spread knob, in the voice section, seems to provide a nice spacing of the voices.

You mean the “diverge” function which basically introduces fixed tuning offsets on the voices. There’s also one of these controls in the filter section which affects the cutoff and I think envelope timings. Adjusting these parameters does indeed yield a more pleasing analogue-type imprecision to the sound. 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on June 19, 2021, 04:42:31 PM
Do you Summit owners find that the instrument has a lot of bugs?  How is Novation support over this?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on June 19, 2021, 05:00:03 PM
Do you Summit owners find that the instrument has a lot of bugs?  How is Novation support over this?
Most of the bugs seem to be when controlling the keyboard externally. I’ve only encountered a couple. One is annoying - the dedicated saw detune feature doesn’t work on layer B in a multi patch.

Support were reasonably quick in getting back to me and confirming it and adding it to the list.

Bug fixes haven’t been forthcoming. Sadly, Chris Hugget (the synth’s creator) died last year and I think that and a few other personnel issues has caused problems with keeping the synth up to date.

Other than that, I’ve not encountered anything that hinders me. There are other bugs and there have been attempts to collate them on the Gearspace Summit thread.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on June 19, 2021, 05:07:18 PM
Thanks.  So you're stuck waiting and hoping for an OS update?

The instrument sounds so good to me, really lush.  It's exactly what I'm looking for to replace my Poly Evolver Keyboard.  But once again, the blasted bugs issue!
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on June 20, 2021, 01:58:57 AM
Thanks.  So you're stuck waiting and hoping for an OS update?

The instrument sounds so good to me, really lush.  It's exactly what I'm looking for to replace my Poly Evolver Keyboard.  But once again, the blasted bugs issue!

There are always bugs in synths. The prophet 10 still has a bug where detuning is impossible on 2-voice unison. I suppose the difference is though that we’ve seen several updates since November, whereas there hasn’t been anything for Summit in a while (though probably for the reasons in my previous post).
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on June 22, 2021, 10:29:21 AM
RE bugs:

I thought I had  encountered a bug w. multilayer not saving part B at one point, but I honestly forgot about it and now don't remember what that was.  I have not noticed it since.    Nothing has hindered me on this instrument. 

RE service:    At one time I contacted Novation Support since I thought I had a voice dropping out issue.  Summit assigned me a service contact ticket and got back to me in probably 3-4 days or so.  I didn't think that was too long being that it was just at the beginning of the Covid epidemic.   I had a few email conversations with them before I realized the issue was with my cables, and nothing to do with the instrument.   Generally I got the sense that Novation would be fairly decent on the support front.   I have not looked for a Novation forum on-line, so I'm unfamiliar with what the common gripes might be, but I don't really have one.

The update software is thru the "components" software you can download.  It tells you if an update is needed in the future.  I did it once so far.  Very easy and quick.  My guess is that some bugs may be rectified during such updates.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Hector Space on June 23, 2021, 03:57:54 AM
I believe you asked (Sacred Synthesis) for my contribution to this thread after the points I raised in the Rev2 firmware updates/bugs thread. Although I see you’ve subsequently deleted that part of your post. Anyway as both a long term Dave Smith product buyer (P2000/P2002/P6) and someone who was a potential Rev2 customer And someone who bought a Summit in January 2021, here’s my view of the instrument and it’s bugs:

The Summit is stable enough and an awesomely capable instrument. It is a chameleon in it abilities. One that is not only able to produce great vintage analogue sounds, match most of the current crop of machines out there and take you on great hands on journeys to places you’ve never been.

The FPGA oscillators do perform better than any DSP based solution (Eg P12) and they provide a much wider set of features than any DCO or VCO synth. Having 3 oscillators all with a full complement of waveforms, shaping, sync, fm and wave table capabilities is a real shot in the arm for anyone interested in complex modelling or real instrument synthesis. I love it!

Perhaps the most important feature is the filter design. In addition to its ability to do impressively powerful 24db effects, it’s almost SEM 12db mode is also really nice.. all with very controllable resonance and both post and pre overdrive. Again for serious instrument modelling the dual mode filter option provides a very capable way of simulating real instrument resonance. So far I’ve used it extensively to model clavinets, trumpet, sax, guitar, Wurly and Rhodes. Not because I needed these sounds but because I’m amazed at how close you can get to these sounds on what is basically a fairly classic synth. It’s a testament to the the instrument’s flexibility.

I admit I’ve only scratched the surface. And everyday is a new adventure, especially with more experimental stuff. It’s huge fun!

Irritations and limitations: although the mod matrix does have way more slots than the Rev2. And even a separate section for efx. which is nice coz with complex modelling you can soon be knocking slot 16. The lack of the ability to cascade slots or as on the Blofeld, ‘the modifier’ which enables much more comprehensive source interaction, is at times frustrating. Novation/Huggett's method of combining two sources max in a multiply function goes some way to mitigating this, but there is no real way to adjust the level of each source and there are definitely times when you want a*b*c such as: mod wheel * lfo3*Ampenv this would provide a note gated Lfo to the overall vca at the depth of mod wheel… but you can’t!

There’s no pan destination!

Although the efx on the Summit are very good and there two complete sets of them.. they are not properly integrated with the synth engine. So the controls and the bus work against any real finesse. It feels to me that Novation just haven’t finished the design in this area.

So the Summit is not without it’s rough edges and bugs.

Summit bugs I know of:-

1. None of the 3 envelope generators track properly from lower values of decay to sustain. Decay levels between 4 and 30 cause the level to jump to meet the sustain level at the end of the decay phase.

2. The decay stage doesn't fade out in a natural, standard sounding log curve. It just drops like its a linear law volume curve.

3. Velocity added in the envelopes from the envelope menus doesn't properly multiply with the envelope contour it adds an offset!! For higher levels of velocity control added from this menu this has a gate like effect, reducing the influence of the envelop shape on the sound. For example a slow attack sound, becomes a fast attack with velocity added in this menu because the velocity added simply gates the contour on.

4. Velocity applied via a mod slot to the AmpEnv (to rectify the above error!) causes random clicks and pops on key gate on.

5. Summit effects are wonderful but the effects bus is utterly broken where changing the dry signal level also changes the wet level – yes they’re wired in series!!!

6. The current arrangement of the 3 digital effects in series or parallel creates some very limiting problems, particularly with the chorus. Out of the 3 effects, chorus is the only one that is configured to always pass the dry signal, when this is combined with the original dry signal there is a sort of phase cancellation effect (even when the chorus depth is turned to 0) this appears to be because there’s a DSP clocking delay of a few mSec between the original analogue signal and the DSP processed output. Really the 3 level controls should be wet/dry controls for each effect. There would then be no need for the analogue signal to be remixed.

7. User wavetables appear to be high frequency limited – this is possibly a Components bug. This has yet to be properly investigated

8. There's a bug in the midi system that fails to send/react to FM controls for the 3 oscillators.

9. There’s a bug in full 16 voice mode (the default mode) where voices 9 to 16 do not receive midi note commands.

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on June 23, 2021, 07:46:00 AM
Thanks for all that information, Hector.  I didn't mean to exclude you from the question.  I removed your name from my post so as to make it more generally addressed to everybody. 

The Summit seems to be a possible replacement for a Poly Evolver Keyboard, especially with its stereo potential, thanks  to the two pairs of audio output jacks.  That's what caught my attention.  But I haven't seen any videos that exploited such a capability.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on August 02, 2021, 10:54:43 AM
Got it.    There are some specific voice type wave shapes that are good choir starters.   I actually imported my own voice shape via the editor saying Ahhh.  It's pretty convincing human voice. 

Ironically, my favorite part, I forgot to mention that I think filter(s) are really nice on Summit.  There are post and pre filter drive, sort of like the drive you get on the P12.   I find myself using a touch of post drive quite a bit.    The ability to split filter between paths in HP/LP/BP is really a strong point.   You can find a bunch of different sounds from the same patch, all a completely different feel, just by using subtle adjustment with hundreds of incremental possible settings.   For example,  I took some of the on-board pads and made them more to my liking just with abandoning the default LP and switching to the multimode filter.


Borrowing (continuation of topic) from the PolyEvolver section.   

The stereo arrangement outputs on the Novation can be set up in two ways.   Normal is the L/R mains out.  Normal Panning is done via pan spread setting.  Alternate arrangement applicable to layer mode is done simply by pulling out the L out plug and sliding it into the L aux input.  In settings just set "B" layer to aux.  That's it.    This in effect places a wider spread when using the instrument in multimode.   This spread is very pronounced with using split patches- whereas "A" layer comes out of the right and "B" layer out of the Left earphone or speaker.  While two similar patches stacked will create a simply gorgeous stereophonic sound.  But two dissimilar patches it can be cool too.   For example,  Violins on the left , French horns on the right, or whatever.   As a quick reversal, and depending on how your effects are patched in,  you can use your mixer routing with dry effect to recombine (re-center) if you wish.   What I like about this Summit arrangement is that I still only have two cords running to my mixer.  A similar process is doable on the Prophet 12, also yielding a beautiful sound, but 4 cords are needed.   

Ultimately this probably all comes down to how you are using the  sound.  For example, live solo, single track this type of sound is really quite amazing.  In a recording of many layers might be too busy with how it sits.   

Sacred Synthesis, in the other thread you were asking about  PEK replacement.  I had already commented on that regard.  But after not using the Summit for a few months and playing with it just yesterday...I can tell you it really does sound superb.   The digital ability can likely get you the sounds you want in that realm.  I like the built in Osc 3 wired to Filter mod to yield some subtle, or wild tones.  The fm controls and ring mod are all easier to control than on the PEK.  In a perfect world I think that a Sequential remake of PEK would be your best bet, but in lack of any evidence of that happening anytime soon, and in a price range contemporary,  I cannot think of a better instrument to fit the bill.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on August 02, 2021, 12:18:48 PM
Now you're singing my tune, Soundquest!  Thank you for doing a little more careful analysis of the Summit.  It definitely is the foremost contender for the hybrid position in my set up, although I would much rather have a Poly Evolver Rev2. 

I seem to have all the reasons needed to put my mighty eight-voice Poly Evolver for sale on Craigslist.  But...but....I need to sleep with her for just one more week. :'(
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Gerry Havinga on August 02, 2021, 02:08:54 PM
Now you're singing my tune, Soundquest!  Thank you for doing a little more careful analysis of the Summit.  It definitely is the foremost contender for the hybrid position in my set up, although I would much rather have a Poly Evolver Rev2. 

I seem to have all the reasons needed to put my mighty eight-voice Poly Evolver for sale on Craigslist.  But...but....I need to sleep with her for just one more week. :'(
Oh my goodness, you are really going to do that, wow ....... What a journey.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on August 02, 2021, 03:01:16 PM
Now you're singing my tune, Soundquest!  Thank you for doing a little more careful analysis of the Summit.  It definitely is the foremost contender for the hybrid position in my set up, although I would much rather have a Poly Evolver Rev2. 

I seem to have all the reasons needed to put my mighty eight-voice Poly Evolver for sale on Craigslist.  But...but....I need to sleep with her for just one more week. :'(
Oh my goodness, you are really going to do that, wow ....... What a journey.

I'm only at the sleeping phase.  ???
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: cornonthecob on August 03, 2021, 04:55:18 PM
At last it seems that the PEAK is comming in a 16 voice keyboard version... i just hope it'll come in a module version as well, but nonetheless, I'm getting this! ... it has two of the fuctions I've missed; dual timbrality and 16 voices! :)

This makes my current doubt about getting a Prophet 12 a lot easier because with this, I see no real need to get a P12 in any way... the dual timbrality and the 16 voices would kill the P12 in my view...

I have both, they do not sound alike. I use both extensively. Its like comparing a organ and an electric piano. Different instruments.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on October 16, 2021, 03:40:31 PM
I'm surprised there aren't more YouTube videos of the Novation Summit.  There are so many more of the Peak.  Yes, the price difference; but, for what it offers, I think the Summit is reasonably priced.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on October 22, 2021, 10:16:01 AM
I don't think its so much of a cost thing limiting persons to make videos- like for example with a Moog 1 or something like that, rather its probably some subtle factors.   

Once you get past the initial demos from the music stores, the standard synth channels, or persons selling patches, the music postings die out.   This would seem true with Summit.  But remember when P12 was somewhat absent on YouTube its heyday and Pro 2 was even more sparse in video representation?   Obviously there's a lot of people playing these instruments out there, so it might just be more of a dynamic of taking the effort to make a video, or perhaps the personality of someone that would want to make a video.   As you were mentioning in another post Sacred Synthesis, the maintaining of a YouTube channel takes a lot of work.  But its also hard enough just to do one video once in a while.  I mean by time you "film it" and  assemble the video in some kind of video software, next thing you know you spent a whole day.  Nevertheless,  I too which there was more videos, especially of the instruments I have.  I do enjoy watching what others do with the same equipment.

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: johans121 on October 26, 2021, 11:06:42 AM
New member here.

Just want to provide some feedback on this particular topic.

Until recently I was the proud owner of a beautiful Polyevolver Keyboard. I was the original owner and I purchased it new from bigcitymusic ages ago. I loved that thing but there was always one thing that grated on my nerves every time I'd patch up a new sound and play it - the limited polyphony. I should have purchased the rack units when they were on blowout for <$1000 each; but, I didn't  :-\

Anyway, last year GAS started hitting hard and I wanted something with more polyphony than what I already had. The only polyphonic synths remaining in my studio were the PEK, Juno60, RS-09, and a Deluge. Well now that I have a wife and a house full of kids I really can't justify buying anything for the studio unless I fund the purchase with proceeds gained by selling something from my studio. The RS-09 wouldn't sell for enough and there is no way I'm getting rid of the Deluge anytime soon as it's pretty much my main sequencer/sampler - that left the PEK and the Juno.... this was a tough decision as I am quite fond of both instruments and I've owned them for a real long time.

I'm trying to get to the point, so I'm going to cut out a long story in order to cut to the chase. After doing a lot of research, listening to every demo I could find, and watching every video available I settled on the Summit (unfortunately there is nowhere near where I live where I could demo one in person). I decided to keep the Juno60 because their value is skyrocketing (I'll eventually sell it) so that left me with the painful decision to sell the PEK. I was hoping that Sequential was going to announce a successor sometime this summer/fall after their announcement back in the spring that they were going to make two product announcements by August (or September?), but alas here we are and all we know of is the Take5...

For the record, this thread in particular was one source of information that I used to help make my decision. That is why I am providing some feedback here, in order to help other people who come here for the same reason I did.

Now my take on the Summit.

Interface:
It is easy to program. If you are comfortable flying around the PEK's internal and external interfaces then the Summit will be no problem. Period. This applies to those who are familiar with other DSI/Sequential products as well as the menu interface is similar across a lot of them. The people who complain about menu diving on the Summit really have no idea what real menu diving is really like. Sure, there is a menu. Sure, there are features that are only accessible from the menu. Sure you might actually have to flip through the menu to get to whatever page you are looking for. The reality of the situation is that the front panel has so much routing available on it that unless you are doing more advanced sound design (or are routing the mod wheel, velocity, or aftertouch) then you will not need to even touch the menus. You can route the LFOs and Envelopes to individual Oscillators' Pitch, Waveform Shape, FM Amounts, and Filter Cutoffs directly on the front panel with a knob. In addition to all the normal stuff you would expect to see on a front panel, you can modify VCA gain, Osc3 to Cutoff, Filter Overdrive, Ring Mod Amount, and other stuff directly on the front panel with a knob. You also have key controls for each of the three effects units on the front panel with dedicated knobs. Knobs everywhere. That said, the menu is dead simple to use and each section only has a few pages.

Mod Matrix:
As alluded to above, the mod matrix is super easy to use. That said, it is more limited than the PEK. The PEK seemed to have every feature as a source and/or destination. The Summit seems to be missing some things that I would want in the mod matrix. The sad thing is, right now I can't seem to recall what they are. There might not even be many that are missing. They just happen to pop up as I'm patching together a new sound. So, if you are into DEEP sound design make sure you review the sources/destinations in the mod matrix to make sure they hit all of your high points.

Filter:
The Summit's filter simply CRUSHES the PEK's filter. There is no comparison. The 4 voice polyphony was the PEK's #1 drawback. #2 was the filter. The filter simply didn't have much sonic character. That said, one thing I loved to do on the PEK was to route the stereo voices into a 'mono' channel and then apply a "spread" between the L & R filters such that when you did a filter sweep you could hear the two cutoffs at the same time. Well..... you can get the same exact effect (but it sounds even better) with the Summit because you can split the 4 pole resonant filter into two 2 pole resonant filters and then apply an offset between them. The Summit's filter is miles ahead of the PEK's on so many different levels. You can have two LPs, two HPs, two BPs, and mix any two together in either serial or parallel. It's simply wonderful and they sound so goooooood.

Oscillators:
The standard waveforms sound about what you would expect. One big difference with the standard waveforms between the PEK and the Summit is that on the Summit you can adjust the shape of the Sine and Triangle waveforms and you can turn the Saw into a massive SuperSaw. The wavetable scanning is nice addition. I will say though that a lot of the included waveforms sound a touch too nasally for my tastes though.

Voice Assignment:
The Summit is very flexible. There are different mono and polyphonic modes. Throughout those modes you can stack different numbers of voices as you wish. You want mono w/one voice, or 2, or 3, or 4, or 8? Sure! You want poly with two voices stacked, or 3, or 4, or 8? Sure! You want drift on each voice? Sure! You want to detune the voices? Sure! Also, the bi-timberal functionality is an absolute BREEZE to use and is very flexible.

Effects:
The effects are all piled on at the end of the audio chain. Which is fine. You can also route the effects into each other, or in parallel with each other, however you want. The reverb is awesome. I wish there was a dedicated rack mounted reverb, which didn't cost a fortune, which sounded as good as the Summit's. The chorus is good. It is usable. Is it as nice as the Juno60's? Absolutely not. No comparison. I like the distortion. It sounds pretty good. The delay is one of my biggest gripes with the Summit. I honestly find the delay uninspiring. I have never had to work with a delay so much to get it to sound the way i expect as I have had to with the Summit.

Biggest Complaints:
1) I am not a fan of the Envelope's attack and decay curves. I wish they were adjustable. It seems that everything else on the Summit is, so I feel like this was a huge missed opportunity. I mean you can adjust the phase on each of the LFO's so why can't I adjust the response curve of the Envelopes from linear, to log, to antilog, etc? It's a simple lookup table. Nothing too hard to do there. Now, I say that it is a complaint, but obviously it isn't a deal breaker.

2) The delay is annoying. I feel like I have to do a ton of tweaking to get the delay to work the way I want it. I find myself just turning the delay's level all the way down and using my outboard delays a lot of times - which is aggravating because I really want the delayed signal to be swept away within the Summit's ab-so-lutely-amazing reverb. If I put enough work into the delay I can get close to what I want most of the time but my God it shouldn't be an arm wrestling match to do so, it's a delay for crying out loud!

3) I do not like the majority of the custom wavetables provided within the Summit. I feel like they really could have put more thought into adding a variety of different sounds onboard. There are too many that share too many characteristics. In addition to that a lot of them sound very nasal in tone. Yes, I know you can upload user defined wavetables using their software - I've used it and it is easy to use, I just haven't uploaded any custom ones yet.

4) I haven't yet wrapped my head around the alternate tuning tables. It should be easy but I'm clearly missing something here.

5) Again, I have this nagging feeling that on occasion I am missing something that I want in the mod matrix. I can't even think of what they are though. That said, I am coming from the PEK so I am very spoiled in that regards. On the PEK, if I wanted to adjust something in the mod matrix there was a 99.9% chance it was there. I feel like the Summit is more like 95% covered. I know, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

PEK vs. Summit:
1) I love the PEK's true stereo signal path. I miss it every day I play with my Summit. I loved being able to adjust the panning of the voices however I wanted to. This is the #1 feature that I miss. The only way you can really appreciate stereo in the summit is through the effects (Reverb, Chorus, and/or Delay). The voice spread is ok but it's not the same by any stretch of the imagination.

2) The PEK's 3 delays were more like an integral part of the synth's voice than an effect, but they could be applied as a standard delay effect if you so desired. I loved the PEK's delays they ADDED so much character to the synth. The Summit's delay is simply an effect - a frustrating one to use at that.

3) The Summit's filters are sooooooooooooooooooo much better than the PEK's. They even sound good when overdriven by the oscillators, the PEK's filter sounded worse when overdriven.

4) There is no discernible stepping (at least to my ears) when I grab the Summit's cutoff knob and give it a twist - I cringe when I think about the stepping on the PEK's (yes, I know if you assign cutoff to real time controllers, and pot edition, and blah blah blah).

5) 16 voices per patch or 8 voices split across two complete synth engines and control them in an intuitive manner VS. 4 voices per patch or 1 voice across 4 complete synth engines and control them with a hope and a prayer. The Summit is on top here.

6) You can overdrive the filter's output and also apply distortion as a separate effect on the Summit but it still doesn't get anywhere near as crunchy as the PEK. The PEK can easily turn into a noise machine simply by looking at it. If you want some awesome distorted sounds the PEK crushes the Summit.

Final Conclusion:
I should have sold the Juno60 and funded the Summit with it rather than with my PEK. I kind of regret that decision. Don't get me wrong. The Summit is a great instrument. It can be very experimental and it is a great sounding instrument, BUT I find myself creating more traditional synth sounds on it as they come out sounding beautiful. It takes a lot of effort for whatever reason, FOR ME, to crank out more experimental sounding patches on the Summit. I feel that outside of the Juno's unique Chorus and Filter the Summit can do everything the Juno60 does but so much better. The PEK was a special instrument. Others have said that I should have replaced the PEK with the new Hydrasynth Deluxe rather than the Summit. They might have been right - but the filters on the Summit are sooooo yummy it's hard to believe that Hydrasynth's would be as good.

Said another way:
I should have sold the Juno60 and replaced it with the Summit and I should have sold the PEK for the non-existent PEK rev2 with better filters and more polyphony (which sadly doesn't exist - I am holding a grudge against Dave Smith because of this). I think a massively polyphonic Pro2 or Pro3 would have fit the bill quite nicely but whatever. I really wanted to give Dave Smith my money again but the Take 5 was a release in the wrong direction (for me at least).

I do like my new Summit but I also miss my old PEK. Would I reverse the trade? Nope  ;)

-Jim
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on October 26, 2021, 01:19:56 PM
Thanks for that detailed review of the Summit, Johans.  There is a lot of useful information in it to ponder.

I've been on the fence about selling my eight-voice PEK-PER combination.  I love the instrument and have no complaints about it, but I don't have the resources necessary to maintain it in the future if it develops major problems. 

I've done plenty of research by now and have concluded that the Summit is the right instrument to replace the PEK...although I don't want to replace it.  If I could know that it wouldn't break down in the future, I'd happily keep it.

The only comment in your post that makes me hesitant concerns the stereo setting of the Summit.  Stereo is a major issue for me; all my polyphonic synthesis must be deeply stereo.  My intention would be to make use, at all times, of the Summit's two pairs of output jacks, so that each patch layer would be sent to the opposite left/right channel.  I've never found a YouTuber who actually made use of this option, so thus far I've been going on faith alone that it works just fine.  But I would like to have more certainty about it.  Have you tried this arrangement?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: johans121 on October 27, 2021, 08:48:29 AM
I've been on the fence about selling my eight-voice PEK-PER combination.  I love the instrument and have no complaints about it, but I don't have the resources necessary to maintain it in the future if it develops major problems.

FWIW if I had an eight voice Evolver I would have kept it but I understand your concern. Maintenance issues can be very real. That is why I want to sell my Juno60 at some point. I don't want to have to maintain it if it ever becomes problematic. I also have a pro one but that is going to the grave with me - it's a basic enough of an instrument that I can perform most maintenance/repairs on it.

Quote
I've done plenty of research by now and have concluded that the Summit is the right instrument to replace the PEK...although I don't want to replace it.

It's a tough decision to make especially if you like the instrument. I mentioned in the last post that I started this process a year ago. It was actually more like two years ago when the Summit & Hydrasynth were first released. I have lost sleep over the decision, long before the decision was even made. I was very fond of my PEK and was quite proud of the patches that I created on it.

Quote
The only comment in your post that makes me hesitant concerns the stereo setting of the Summit.  Stereo is a major issue for me; all my polyphonic synthesis must be deeply stereo.  My intention would be to make use, at all times, of the Summit's two pairs of output jacks, so that each patch layer would be sent to the opposite left/right channel.  I've never found a YouTuber who actually made use of this option, so thus far I've been going on faith alone that it works just fine.  But I would like to have more certainty about it.  Have you tried this arrangement?

I personally have not tested the auxiliary pair of outputs yet on the Summit. I only used the main stereo pair on my PEK and never used the individual voice outputs as I always used the 4 voices polyphonically (or monophonically) never multitimberaly.

If you give me some very specific (i.e. detailed) use cases I will try to build them in my studio and test them out for you. I have a large mixer and patchbays so I will be able to re-cable things fairly easy for testing purposes.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on October 27, 2021, 09:31:31 AM
Johans121,    Look at my Aug 2nd post above- it describes the basic alternate stereo spread setup on Summit.  Not sure there's another way. 

From the hardware instruments I've used, PEK takes the cake with stereo width without expending any effort.  It's just there, and you hear it right away, but not overbearing.  I found the UDO Super 6 to be in the same league here too.  With some manipulation of outgoing soundcables , the P12 and Novation Summit can be made to be wider too.  Understand that on the Novation this is layer A on one side B on the other.  Whereas P12 uses 4 cables to do this, and probably technically a better approach.    Like any stereo, this widening, if pronounced, can be both good and bad depending on the patch or what you are trying to do.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on October 27, 2021, 10:05:03 AM
Yes, that's one of the many strengths of the Poly Evolver - stereo is more or less its default setting.  It takes no effort to make gorgeous stereo pads, thanks to the inbuilt dividing of oscillators to opposite channels.  There's no need to fuss with jacks on the back of the instrument. 

When I first tried the the Prophet 12, I didn't care for the sound at all.  But then I made use the pairs of output jacks and set it in stereo that way, which transformed the sound.  It's a bit more inconvenient and messy, and it doesn't allow you to easily go back and forth between mono and stereo, but it works.  This is what I would expect and hope to be the case with the Summit.  But again, I haven't heard anyone do it yet.

What I'm proposing is that, on the Summit, two different layers be designed and, using the jacks, panned to opposite sides, and then played together.  These layers can be either different sounds or the same.

It's unfortunate that I'm only trying to emulate the Poly Evolver on another instrument.  I also happen to like the selection of digital wave shapes found on the PEK.  By contrast, the Summit seems to have a poor or limited selection.  Johans described them as "nasal."  This doesn't sound promising, especially since I'm not intending to load my own.   
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LoboLives on October 27, 2021, 10:35:34 AM
Yes, that's one of the many strengths of the Poly Evolver - stereo is more or less its default setting.  It takes no effort to make gorgeous stereo pads, thanks to the inbuilt dividing of oscillators to opposite channels.  There's no need to fuss with jacks on the back of the instrument. 

When I first tried the the Prophet 12, I didn't care for the sound at all.  But then I made use the pairs of output jacks and set it in stereo that way, which transformed the sound.  It's a bit more inconvenient and messy, and it doesn't allow you to easily go back and forth between mono and stereo, but it works.  This is what I would expect and hope to be the case with the Summit.  But again, I haven't heard anyone do it yet.

What I'm proposing is that, on the Summit, two different layers be designed and, using the jacks, panned to opposite sides, and then played together.  These layers can be either different sounds or the same.

It's unfortunate that I'm only trying to emulate the Poly Evolver on another instrument.  I also happen to like the selection of digital wave shapes found on the PEK.  By contrast, the Summit seems to have a poor or limited selection.  Johans described them as "nasal."  This doesn't sound promising, especially since I'm not intending to load my own.   

Any interest in the HydraSynth Deluxe. It's not a hybrid but if you are dead set on refusing to create and load your own wavetables and just stick with what's on board then the HydraSynth might have a better pallet of sounds to choose from than the Summit.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on October 27, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, Lobolives.  I've looked at the Hydrasynth and the Deluxe.  They're remarkable instruments, but they don't seem to be the right synthesizers for me.  I'm still looking at them, though.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: johans121 on October 27, 2021, 09:50:52 PM
Johans121,    Look at my Aug 2nd post above- it describes the basic alternate stereo spread setup on Summit.  Not sure there's another way.

I checked out the post and I have to say that either there is a major misunderstanding on my part or what I think was described is simply the indented usage of the Aux outputs.

I read it two ways
1) sending part A to the main outs and part B to the Aux outs.

2) taking one of the stereo outputs from the main output and feeding it into an input and then sending that through the Aux output or something like that. I have to admit I don’t know what this would buy you.

Anyway I tested the stereo functionality based on what I think would be typical usage. Here are my impressions
1) One patch, setting voice spread to max:
   - if you engage one voice that voice is sent to both L & R channels.
   - if you engage a second voice after releasing the first one, it also is sent to both channels
   - if you continue to engage the first voice, which is sent to both channels, every subsequent voice engaged is sent to alternating channels.

2) routing part A to main and part B to aux.
    - this works as you would expect in stereo, per output pair, and in mono. If you are outputting mono from the main and mono from Aux you can obviously pan that manually however you wish within a mixer.

3) you can also route the effects from part A and Part B separately from the source between main and Aux. meaning if you want to you can send Part A and Part A Fx to main and part B and part B Fx to aux. Or send both Part A & B to main and the Part A Fx & B Fx to Aux, etc.

Overall I think the stereo output sounds fantastic through the effects. The onboard panning via the spread function is alright but nothing special. Routing the individual parts and/or their effects works as expected. Ultimately if you have a mixer you can do whatever you want with the signals.

If I failed to address your use case let me know and I’ll try again.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on October 28, 2021, 10:12:53 AM
Gee, did I forget to mention a mixer?  The whole point of sending each layer out through a different pair of jacks is to run them into a mixer and then pan there there.  Maybe now I'm clear.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: johans121 on October 28, 2021, 01:40:31 PM
Gee, did I forget to mention a mixer?  The whole point of sending each layer out through a different pair of jacks is to run them into a mixer and then pan there there.  Maybe now I'm clear.

If you are using a mixer then I would have to say your original concern regarding the Summit and stereo output isn't really an issue. As mentioned in my last post not only can you route the output from each bi-timberal part individually to main or aux outputs you can also route the effects for each part separately. It is an easy straight forward process to do so.

Example 1)
Part A and Part A Fx >>> Main Outputs
Part B and Part B Fx >>> Aux Outputs

Example 2)
Part A and Part B           >>> Main Outputs
Part A Fx and Part B Fx >>> Aux Outputs

Example 3)
Part A and Part B Fx >>> Main Outputs
Part B and Part A Fx >>> Aux Outputs

etc...
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on October 28, 2021, 02:11:05 PM
That would be a bingo!  I've never heard it done in a demonstration, but it must be glorious.

I have a suspicion that Novation was thinking of Dave Smith when they added this back panel design.  There are precious few synthesizers that offer it. 

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: johans121 on October 28, 2021, 10:16:31 PM
That would be a bingo!  I've never heard it done in a demonstration, but it must be glorious.

I have a suspicion that Novation was thinking of Dave Smith when they added this back panel design.  There are precious few synthesizers that offer it.

Who knows? I think that the Summit was a well thought out instrument in terms of features. The end product is pretty good minus the few caveats that I mentioned earlier.

If you want me to try anything else or have any other questions, let me know.

In the meantime I’m gonna crawl back in my cave and pray that Dave Smith will release an Evolver Mk2 so I can have another reason to cash my Juno60 in.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on October 30, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
Yes, that would be nice.  But I imagine a PEK Mk II would end up being and sounding quite different from the original.  Just my hunch.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on November 03, 2021, 01:56:45 AM
I've also been searching around for Summit videos recently and not finding many. There is someone who has done a few short videos here:-

https://www.youtube.com/user/pjamesbridge/videos

Not sure if you've already seen those and he's not done a new video for a couple of months, but there could be things you could ask him?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on November 03, 2021, 07:09:05 AM
Thanks, Jg.  I'll take a look through those later.  The videos I often find the deepest and most musical are those by Daniel Fisher.  This short demo is typical, and I found it the most helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI4IRIZh86E

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on November 03, 2021, 07:56:24 AM
Agreed Daniel is always worth watching
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on November 03, 2021, 08:13:25 AM
That's because he was trained as an organist.  ;D
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: NivekReznourgensen on November 10, 2021, 08:53:00 PM
I see no real need to get a P12 in any way... the dual timbrality [of SUMMIT] and the 16 voices would kill the P12 in my view...

I know this is an old thread, but someone has to stand up for the Prophet 12....  The P12 is one killer synth!!  I don't need any more than 10 voices on a non-piano keyboard.    ;)   The module version is probably the most compact 12 voices you can get, and the hybrid digital/analog architecture sounds soooo good.  And the built-in distortion just screams....  Love it, love it, love it....    ;D
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on November 11, 2021, 03:11:59 PM
I totally agree.  I would have preferred a Prophet 12 too.  It's just that I'd prefer an instrument that's still in production.  But there's no argument here between a Summit and a P12.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on November 14, 2021, 01:52:20 AM
Just stumbled upon another Summit video I'd not seen before.. once again, apologies if you've already seen this but it does look as though he is wanting to explore the depths of the synth so might be a useful source of information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVs0z_4sGNA

Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on November 14, 2021, 02:11:52 AM
Just stumbled upon another Summit video I'd not seen before.. once again, apologies if you've already seen this but it does look as though he is wanting to explore the depths of the synth so might be a useful source of information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVs0z_4sGNA
Calc works for Novation and did a fairly in-depth series on the various sections. of Summit.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on November 14, 2021, 03:52:20 AM
Aha that explains why he knows so much about it  ;D

Thanks for the info, I'll check out some more of his videos.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on April 03, 2022, 11:46:30 AM
Fabulous news:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biqDQ7lMbGM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYwyqqPMCu4

Firmware v2.0 Features
 
Stereo
New spread modes, panning per voice, and panning in the mod matrix give additional control and allows for sound design in the stereo field. Now you can create bigger, wider, and more intricately textured soundscapes.


Modulation and unpredictability
Create deeper and more experimental sounds with new mod destinations, noise as a mod source, and additional LFO 3 and 4 parameters. Animate Envelopes and Arpeggiator Chance open more creative performance possibilities.


Effects
New effects, including Chorus Modes, Flanger, and Phlanger add new tonalities. Additional effects modulation destinations open up more experimental sound design. A new Lo-Fi delay mode enables a more vintage style sound.


Bug Fixes
The firmware update v2.0 includes a number of bug fixes. The full details can be found in the release notes.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jok3r on April 04, 2022, 04:33:59 AM
Thats a very cool update. I was waiting for this stereo capabilities for a very long time now. That was the biggest flaw of this synth for me until now.

The animate envelopes are very nice, too. I didn't use these buttons very much, but now that I can smooth out the changes I surely will give it a try.

I have to update as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on August 02, 2022, 01:35:14 AM
I believe it is possible to use the Summit as an effects processor for other synths? If so is it easy to do this?

I was going to buy a Strymon Big Sky but if I can achieve similar via a synth then this might be a possibility instead :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Elric on August 02, 2022, 12:53:16 PM
I believe it is possible to use the Summit as an effects processor for other synths? If so is it easy to do this?

I'm pretty sure the most important point here is if there is an "External Audio Input" on the synth (any synth).
And then, where that plug/input gets inserted into the path / signal chain of the synth.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: narkosys on August 02, 2022, 02:08:17 PM
I believe it is possible to use the Summit as an effects processor for other synths? If so is it easy to do this?

I was going to buy a Strymon Big Sky but if I can achieve similar via a synth then this might be a possibility instead :)

from the Novation Summit page itself:

"Audio in and auxiliary audio out

Hook up external instruments for processing with Summit’s onboard effects, while using it as a synth at the same time."
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on August 03, 2022, 12:57:01 AM
Thanks for the replies. It sounds like it's an easy task to use the Summit as an effects processor for another synth.

I had seen the inputs on the back panel but given my experience with the Pro2 I thought it best to ask rather than assume. Whilst the Pro2 has external inputs it's not an easy process in my experience as you have to hold a note and then turn the oscillators off for it to receive and process the incoming from the audio in sockets. The incoming audio also goes through the filters so you can do a few things with it, but it's not ideal for me as an effects processor.

(edited to try and make more sense!!!)
 
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: LPF83 on August 03, 2022, 07:53:29 AM
Thanks for the replies. It sounds like it's an easy task to use the Summit as an effects processor for another synth.

I had seen the inputs on the back panel but given my experience with the Pro2 I thought it best to ask rather than assume. Whilst the Pro2 has external inputs it's not an easy process in my experience as you have to hold a note and then turn the oscillators off for it to receive and process the incoming from the audio in sockets. The incoming audio also goes through the filters so you can do a few things with it, but it's not ideal for me as an effects processor.

(edited to try and make more sense!!!)

As someone who has had a few synths that allow external inputs through the FX, I just thought I'd chime in enough to say that I consider it experimental fun but in no way a replacement for dedicated pedals or rack FX equipment.  The overall experience and resulting sound is not the same IMHO. 

By all means do it, I've done this recently with the Virus and System 8...   but I wouldn't buy a particular synth that has that capability instead of a good set of pedals if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on August 03, 2022, 09:50:17 AM
Thanks for the replies. It sounds like it's an easy task to use the Summit as an effects processor for another synth.

I had seen the inputs on the back panel but given my experience with the Pro2 I thought it best to ask rather than assume. Whilst the Pro2 has external inputs it's not an easy process in my experience as you have to hold a note and then turn the oscillators off for it to receive and process the incoming from the audio in sockets. The incoming audio also goes through the filters so you can do a few things with it, but it's not ideal for me as an effects processor.

(edited to try and make more sense!!!)

As someone who has had a few synths that allow external inputs through the FX, I just thought I'd chime in enough to say that I consider it experimental fun but in no way a replacement for dedicated pedals or rack FX equipment.  The overall experience and resulting sound is not the same IMHO. 

By all means do it, I've done this recently with the Virus and System 8...   but I wouldn't buy a particular synth that has that capability instead of a good set of pedals if that makes sense.

Yes that makes perfect sense and many thanks for your reply :)
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Soundquest on August 04, 2022, 12:02:05 PM
Thanks for the replies. It sounds like it's an easy task to use the Summit as an effects processor for another synth.

I had seen the inputs on the back panel but given my experience with the Pro2 I thought it best to ask rather than assume. Whilst the Pro2 has external inputs it's not an easy process in my experience as you have to hold a note and then turn the oscillators off for it to receive and process the incoming from the audio in sockets. The incoming audio also goes through the filters so you can do a few things with it, but it's not ideal for me as an effects processor.

(edited to try and make more sense!!!)

As someone who has had a few synths that allow external inputs through the FX, I just thought I'd chime in enough to say that I consider it experimental fun but in no way a replacement for dedicated pedals or rack FX equipment.  The overall experience and resulting sound is not the same IMHO. 

By all means do it, I've done this recently with the Virus and System 8...   but I wouldn't buy a particular synth that has that capability instead of a good set of pedals if that makes sense.

I'm surprised how many synths have this audio input feature, but I've only experimented a few times with such.  Perhaps more folks use this than I expect and its a selling point,  or its relatively inexpensive for the manufactures to slap into the circuit?    I personally would not want to rely on processing outboard instruments thru my Summit.     
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: jg666 on August 06, 2022, 06:54:19 AM
Has anyone loaded the latest firmware version which was released the other day? Just wondering if this is a bug fix release or if there’s anything new?
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on August 07, 2022, 07:22:50 AM
Has anyone loaded the latest firmware version which was released the other day? Just wondering if this is a bug fix release or if there’s anything new?
The added new features are detailed in the release notes.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Quatschmacher on May 31, 2023, 09:58:21 AM
Decksaver have finally made a cover for this synth.
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on June 12, 2023, 05:46:09 PM
This is an excellent thorough review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loy1DDpwSWQ
Title: Re: Novation SUMMIT ?
Post by: Elric on June 12, 2023, 10:35:52 PM
This is an excellent thorough review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loy1DDpwSWQ

Yea. Great overview.

This, and the PolyBrute, is/are many of the reasons I'm not so impressed with the Trigon. - Yes, I know some people want something different, but this is cheaper and better. (I'm still stuck on my Pro3)