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Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)

Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« on: February 07, 2017, 01:09:50 AM »
Hey all

I have searched for sound examples of the FM capabilities of the Prophet 12, but hardly no videos or audio examples anywhere.

Maybe some of the forum members in here have something lying around? I heard about the FM capabilities recently, and wanted to hear how it handles traditional sounds like the classic Tine Piano etc. on the DX7.

Anyone?

 Alex

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 08:10:19 AM »
I've also been curious to hear what people have cooked up by using the P12 as a straightforward FM synth. I may do some experimenting today on that.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 08:28:43 AM »
In my P12 app I have a DX randomization button which randomly selects one of the Yamaha 4-Operator DX Synthesizer Algorithms. I have gotten many usable sounds using that.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 09:12:19 PM »
The P-12 FM is different than the DX FM.  I did some experimenting with modulating sine waves, and it does not modulate like the DX.  Using sine waves, sidebands over 4k hz were almost non-existent.  The DX will produce sidebands well in excess of 12k hz using the same carrier/modulator ratios.   Haven't dug deep into modulating the more complex waves yet.  However, I am hopeful that I can get the higher timbres going that direction.

I linked a recording where I used FM on the P-12.  In this recording, the melody instrument is the P-12 with a predominately FM sound.  It's not the 80's tines but more like a 70's Rhodes sound.  The bell sound later on the melody is an S-90.  BTW, the bass is a Pro-2 and the counterpoint to the harmony is a P-08.  The percussive sound on "1" and the snap noise on "2" is a DX-7.  So, lots of FM happening on this track!

https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/tac

« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 09:39:37 PM by jdt9517 »
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 07:12:13 PM »
In the video with john and dave there is a few patches demonstrated are they available for download?
DSI Synths: OB6 Module, OB6 Keyboard.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 06:24:55 PM »
I haven't tried them, but I believe they're available as an alternative factory bank that you can upload to the P12. They're available on this page: http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/prophet-12-factory-sounds/

I was thinking about checking that out sometime soon.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2017, 11:20:38 PM »

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 05:35:15 PM »

I've made a little demo  :)

https://soundcloud.com/thedisease/prophet-12-linearfm

Very cool patches. Really enjoyed that. The pad at the end was a personal favorite.

lt773

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2017, 02:36:30 PM »

I've made a little demo  :)

https://soundcloud.com/thedisease/prophet-12-linearfm

Man. I love that second to last bell sound. You should make a sound bank!

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2017, 03:01:09 PM »
@AdamPloof

Actually, that's a split, the Pad is an analog style string sound and the bass is made with FM, and that's what is cool with the P'12 :)


@lt773

The bell sound is one of the bank provided by DSI with the OS update, I slightly modified it.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2017, 04:32:22 AM »
The P-12 FM is different than the DX FM.  I did some experimenting with modulating sine waves, and it does not modulate like the DX.  Using sine waves, sidebands over 4k hz were almost non-existent.  The DX will produce sidebands well in excess of 12k hz using the same carrier/modulator ratios.   Haven't dug deep into modulating the more complex waves yet.  However, I am hopeful that I can get the higher timbres going that direction.

I linked a recording where I used FM on the P-12.  In this recording, the melody instrument is the P-12 with a predominately FM sound.  It's not the 80's tines but more like a 70's Rhodes sound.  The bell sound later on the melody is an S-90.  BTW, the bass is a Pro-2 and the counterpoint to the harmony is a P-08.  The percussive sound on "1" and the snap noise on "2" is a DX-7.  So, lots of FM happening on this track!

https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/tac

Thanks for the reply. Would that mean that you can't recreate a version of the classic Tines piano sound for instance? Or some of the brass sounds?

 Alex

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 09:26:50 PM »
You can to some degree, but the true DX7-FM setup cannot be replicated.

On the DX, for the tines sound, the six operators would be set up into three sets of two.  One set made the basic main sound, the second was the higher harmonics of the main sound (and would provide the "growl" when played harder) , and the third was the percussive hammer part of the sound.  On the P-12, there are four operators (oscillators + Envelope) at most.  So, it cannot set up a six operator patch.  There are work arounds.  In the DX, each operator was a sine wave.  Two sines modulated together would create a complex wave and often the wave for a "musical" sound was near a saw or square wave.  So, potentially an oscillator on the P-12 can do double duty since it can create a complex wave on its own near the modulated sound of the two sines on the DX.   Thus, three or four complex oscillators could theoretically mimic a six operator FM system.

What was especially disappointing was lack of high frequency sidebands when modulating the P-12 oscillators together.  What gives the DX the real sparkle is the sidebands it creates in the 6k hz + range.  The P-12 was simply not capable of producing those sidebands.  Granted, I was only using sines on the P-12 for modulation.  I haven't tried it with the more complex waves.  So, it may be possible to get the sidebands going that direction.    However, the two sines should be able to put out those high frequency sidebands.  I shouldn't be having to do work arounds for such a basic FM operation.

However, don't take this as saying the P-12 is an inferior instrument.  It isn't.  It is a blast!    Here's a later piece I put together, primarily P-12 (both melodies), Pro-2, DX-7 and P-08.  Each one of the instruments has its own palette of colors and they blend so well.  https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/2017-02-19-waltz 

As a result, the DX-7 is still alive and well in my studio.  The only thing that may take its place is a Yamaha Montage - but that's an expensive proposition and I don't see me doing it in the near future.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 10:46:31 AM »
You can to some degree, but the true DX7-FM setup cannot be replicated.

On the DX, for the tines sound, the six operators would be set up into three sets of two.  One set made the basic main sound, the second was the higher harmonics of the main sound (and would provide the "growl" when played harder) , and the third was the percussive hammer part of the sound.  On the P-12, there are four operators (oscillators + Envelope) at most.  So, it cannot set up a six operator patch.  There are work arounds.  In the DX, each operator was a sine wave.  Two sines modulated together would create a complex wave and often the wave for a "musical" sound was near a saw or square wave.  So, potentially an oscillator on the P-12 can do double duty since it can create a complex wave on its own near the modulated sound of the two sines on the DX.   Thus, three or four complex oscillators could theoretically mimic a six operator FM system.

What was especially disappointing was lack of high frequency sidebands when modulating the P-12 oscillators together.  What gives the DX the real sparkle is the sidebands it creates in the 6k hz + range.  The P-12 was simply not capable of producing those sidebands.  Granted, I was only using sines on the P-12 for modulation.  I haven't tried it with the more complex waves.  So, it may be possible to get the sidebands going that direction.    However, the two sines should be able to put out those high frequency sidebands.  I shouldn't be having to do work arounds for such a basic FM operation.

However, don't take this as saying the P-12 is an inferior instrument.  It isn't.  It is a blast!    Here's a later piece I put together, primarily P-12 (both melodies), Pro-2, DX-7 and P-08.  Each one of the instruments has its own palette of colors and they blend so well.  https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/2017-02-19-waltz 

As a result, the DX-7 is still alive and well in my studio.  The only thing that may take its place is a Yamaha Montage - but that's an expensive proposition and I don't see me doing it in the near future.

What a wasted opportunity at Namm that Yamaha didn't do a modern FM only synth. I'm only interested in the Montage because of the FM capabilities so why not just do a brand new DX? Would have sold probably better than the Montage ironically.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2017, 03:44:48 PM »
I understand that 98% of DX7s returned to Yamaha (for repair?) still had the preset sounds loaded, which suggests that only 2% of purchasers (like me) wrote new sounds. A DX with some serious knobs would not necessarily surpass the Prophet 12. I speak as one who created 256 DX7 voices and would be using one still if 2 hadn't broken.

I am happy with one (excellent) synth at a time, and I am currently very happy to have a P12, but then I am not interested in recreating old sounds, I like to find new ones.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 09:20:19 PM »
I appreciate your perspective.  I like keeping my old family of synths intact and from time to time adopting a new member of the family.  I learned that lesson after I sold my P-5.  I still appreciate the DX and find new ways to make interesting sounds from it.  The FM in the P-12 makes interesting sounds, but cannot replicate the DX.  So, I will not give up the DX for the P-12 and vice versa.  They just add more colors to my palette!
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 06:51:39 AM »
I recently did a live demonstration of the Prophet 12s FM capability (which I didn't record, but have recreated here)
https://soundcloud.com/andy-15-3/fm-examples

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2018, 09:53:06 AM »
The P-12 FM is different than the DX FM.  I did some experimenting with modulating sine waves, and it does not modulate like the DX.  Using sine waves, sidebands over 4k hz were almost non-existent.  The DX will produce sidebands well in excess of 12k hz using the same carrier/modulator ratios.   Haven't dug deep into modulating the more complex waves yet.  However, I am hopeful that I can get the higher timbres going that direction.

Weird I wonder why this is the case.  Do they just not run fast enough or modulate tight enough?

Have you been able to get higher timbres with it's FM yet?

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2018, 10:20:07 AM »
I am not near Cassandra (my P12) at the moment but I seem to remember getting a greater amount of LFM by doing it twice in the Mod section (or more than twice) I think it is also mentioned on one of the other threads here.

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2018, 04:43:16 PM »
You can to some degree, but the true DX7-FM setup cannot be replicated.

On the DX, for the tines sound, the six operators would be set up into three sets of two.  One set made the basic main sound, the second was the higher harmonics of the main sound (and would provide the "growl" when played harder) , and the third was the percussive hammer part of the sound.  On the P-12, there are four operators (oscillators + Envelope) at most.  So, it cannot set up a six operator patch.  There are work arounds.  In the DX, each operator was a sine wave.  Two sines modulated together would create a complex wave and often the wave for a "musical" sound was near a saw or square wave.  So, potentially an oscillator on the P-12 can do double duty since it can create a complex wave on its own near the modulated sound of the two sines on the DX.   Thus, three or four complex oscillators could theoretically mimic a six operator FM system.

What was especially disappointing was lack of high frequency sidebands when modulating the P-12 oscillators together.  What gives the DX the real sparkle is the sidebands it creates in the 6k hz + range.  The P-12 was simply not capable of producing those sidebands.  Granted, I was only using sines on the P-12 for modulation.  I haven't tried it with the more complex waves.  So, it may be possible to get the sidebands going that direction.    However, the two sines should be able to put out those high frequency sidebands.  I shouldn't be having to do work arounds for such a basic FM operation.

However, don't take this as saying the P-12 is an inferior instrument.  It isn't.  It is a blast!    Here's a later piece I put together, primarily P-12 (both melodies), Pro-2, DX-7 and P-08.  Each one of the instruments has its own palette of colors and they blend so well.  https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/2017-02-19-waltz 

As a result, the DX-7 is still alive and well in my studio.  The only thing that may take its place is a Yamaha Montage - but that's an expensive proposition and I don't see me doing it in the near future.

Could 6-operator FM not be had by using a stacked patch, one having a 4-op and the other having a 2-op?

Re: Prophet 12 FM examples (DX7 style sounds)
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2018, 08:37:06 PM »

Could 6-operator FM not be had by using a stacked patch, one having a 4-op and the other having a 2-op?

Not unless you can modulate one layer with another (assuming that's what you mean by "stacked").  6op means you have 5ops modulating 1op in some configuration (algorithm).  A 4op patch simply played simultaneously with a 2op patch might yield interesting results, but unless you can put the 2ops "in line" (thus "linear FM") with the other 4ops, it won't give you 6op FM.