What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

[vinnyburns1@mac.com]

In fact–most of the live "player" setups I see have at least one 73+ key MIDI keyboard controller somewhere, including this one:

I can assure you that for the few years I worked with Billy Currie in Ultravox, he was not using soft synths with a controller and we had a truck full of gear. :-)
The portability angle goes out of the window too as you would need the 49 key synth and the controller. That is two keyboards and not one. When editing a synth, you want to do it from it's own keyboard and not a separate controller.
Why would anyone be reluctant to be given an extra octave to make the synth usable.
I will just have to slum it with my Prophet 08 and my OB8 (when it comes back from a service and rebuild). :-)

[BobTheDog]

Can't find one in stock in the UK.

Should have got one while I had the chance

If you're still looking, Gear4Music apparently have 4 in stock:

http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM

Thanks, they have two now.

Just a bit of "umming and ahhing" to be done here now...

[vinnyburns1@mac.com]

Thanks, they have two now.

Just a bit of "umming and ahhing" to be done here now...

That is a great price.

[Sacred Synthesis]

Can't find one in stock in the UK.

Should have got one while I had the chance

If you're still looking, Gear4Music apparently have 4 in stock:

http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM

Thanks, they have two now.

Just a bit of "umming and ahhing" to be done here now...

If you do buy one, you'll still be able to return it if something of greater interest shows up at NAMM.

[Paul Dither]

I don't think that the appearance of synths with 49 keys has to be read as a writing on the wall for synths with 61 keys. In the case of the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 the absence of 12 further keys is not really that painful considering that they are both 6 voice synths that don't offer split or layering functions. Both would have also looked weird with a bigger keyboard, as DSI would have certainly not added any more functions just because of that. So one would have ended up with completely empty front panel areas to the left and the right. With regard to ergonomics and design, it was an economically reasonable decision to go for 49 keys.

As for Behringer:
What's certainly revealing about their plan is that they'd like to produce their own chips despite the recently reissued CEM 3340s. For cost reasons it's obviously smarter for them to keep it all under one roof, which has already been the strategy for the DM12. Nevertheless, I'm wondering whether we'd see any licensing claims on the horizon if (this is still highly speculative) they wanted to rebuilt certain classics.

Apart from that I'd say: let them get lost in retromania.

[vinnyburns1@mac.com]

I don't think that the appearance of synths with 49 keys has to be read as a writing on the wall for synths with 61 keys. In the case of the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 the absence of 12 further keys is not really that painful considering that they are both 6 voice synths that don't offer split or layering functions. Both would have also looked weird with a bigger keyboard, as DSI would have certainly not added any more functions just because of that. So one would have ended up with completely empty front panel areas to the left and the right. With regard to ergonomics and design, it was an economically reasonable decision to go for 49 keys.

As for Behringer:
What's certainly revealing about their plan is that they'd like to produce their own chips despite the recently reissued CEM 3340s. For cost reasons it's obviously smarter for them to keep it all under one roof, which has already been the strategy for the DM12. Nevertheless, I'm wondering whether we'd see any licensing claims on the horizon if (this is still highly speculative) they wanted to rebuilt certain classics.

Apart from that I'd say: let them get lost in retromania.

Honestly don't agree with you about ob6/prophet6 looking odd with 61 keys. In fact, what you describe is exactly how the prophet 08 looks with the same gaps each side.
You talk on behalf if DSi like you have some hand in these choices and give excuses as if you were part of the decision making team although you are not.

[Paul Dither]

Honestly don't agree with you about ob6/prophet6 looking odd with 61 keys. In fact, what you describe is exactly how the prophet 08 looks with the same gaps each side.

I was thinking about the design with the wheel box to the left of the keyboard. That would have left much more blank space than in the Prophet '08's case. Other than that I agree: Based on the Prophet '08 design it would have looked less odd. It is my understanding though that the decision for 49 keys was consciously made with increased portability in mind. I was just adding the thought that this decision fit in with the overall appearance, as in: the synth doesn't appear as if anything would be missing or was cut off.

You talk on behalf if DSi like you have some hand in these choices and give excuses as if you were part of the decision making team although you are not.

Although I do have an empathetic side, I can really only speak for myself in that regard and I'm certainly not trying to give any excuses for something I wasn't even involved in, nor do I see any reason to do so. I can, however, add some views based on reasoning - and that's about it.

To get back to the according example: Would I have said 'no' to an extra 12 keys on the Prophet-6 as a player? Most certainly not. Me saying that I can understand the actual design choice doesn't mean: this was the only way to go about it. But the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 are what they are and I personally am fine with my Prophet-6 as it is. That in turn doesn't indicate that I'm saying anything like "61 keys are overrated" or that 49 keys should be the new standard. I have even pointed out in this thread that I absolutely get it if people say that 49 keys are not enough for them. I was trained on a piano, so I know why it can be important to have a certain amount of keys at your fingertips. I only meant to name a couple of aspects that would make the loss of one actave a bit more apparent on a synth, namely: a number of voices that is higher than 6 and a split mode. That, again, doesn't indicate that I was saying 61 keys wouldn't have made sense either way in the case of the Prophet-6 and the OB-6.

If you came to the conclusion that both of these synths cannot be considered serious instruments because of their keyboard's length, as you said above, that's fine. I'm certainly not here to argue about the decision you've made. These analog synths are what they are. What they are not is an inevitable hint at a future without 61 keys.

[DavidDever]

I can assure you that for the few years I worked with Billy Currie in Ultravox, he was not using soft synths with a controller and we had a truck full of gear. :-)
The portability angle goes out of the window too as you would need the 49 key synth and the controller. That is two keyboards and not one. When editing a synth, you want to do it from it's own keyboard and not a separate controller.
Why would anyone be reluctant to be given an extra octave to make the synth usable.
I will just have to slum it with my Prophet 08 and my OB8 (when it comes back from a service and rebuild). :-)

I'm not picking on you, Vinny, by any means - I've wrestled with this for a while. I think that it would be quite beneficial to have five octaves, 8-12 split/layered voices, etc. for my home studio (and occasional studio / live) purposes, without having to haul out a 20-inch deep vintage unit*, or a controller keyboard of any size + a desktop module. That is something, I'd hope, that we can agree on. (And that's what I thought the Prophet-12 might provide, but I wasn't keen on the sound.)

For others, whose use case in terms of musical style might be quite different, a single, reasonably portable analogue polysynth (possibly paired up with a >5-octave ROMpler?) fits the bill at 49 keys. And as for myself–I like to "workshop" individual synths from time to time on my main workdesk, so the shorter keybed does take up less space.

I don't think anyone's defending DSI's product decisions, or fanboi-ing anyone who questions them–I simply see it as a change in perception that reflects a fairly short (in historical terms) evolution of the manner by which we control electr(on)ic musical instruments.

* - though nothing anchors the inside of a studio like a vintage Oberheim polysynth

[vinnyburns1@mac.com]

Yes, sorry guys. Just finding it frustrating that this miniaturisation trend is now effecting most releases of polysynth. I just wish one company was brave enough to get it right instead of cutting corners.

[Sacred Synthesis]

Either Chris or Tracy has firmly stated that DSI will never use miniature keyboards on their instruments.  As for length, I do personally like having the variety that DSI offers.  I think it's some times handy to have instruments with only 3 1/2 or 4-octave keyboards.  They can compliment a corner of one's set up where room may be lacking.  But the 5-octave keyboard reigns supreme with me for offering a full range for playing, while not being as immense as a piano-length keyboard. 

If some of us are a bit impatient over keyboard length, it's understandable if you consider how long it's been since DSI last produced a 5-octave keyboard: all the way back to the Prophet 12.  However, I don't think there's reason for concern.  3 1/2 octaves makes sense for a mono synth like the Pro 2, and 4 octaves makes sense for small poly synths like the Prophet-6 and OB-6.  Again, that's for small poly synths, which is how I regard those two synthesizers.  And that's why I didn't chose them for expansion with modules - they're just too small to start with, so that the end result would not be worth the substantial expense.

It's positively time for DSI to produce another poly synth with a 5-octave keyboard.  This was the case anyways, but it's all the more true now, in light of the discontinuation of the Prophet '08.  DSI needs something full-scale other than the P12, especially since that instrument is not appealing to quite a few serious synthesists.  I'm hoping we're very soon to see such a new instrument - preferably in just a couple of weeks.  I wouldn't seriously consider buying anything other than such a large keyboard synthesizer, and until it appears, I'll happily work with the four five-octave instruments that I have.

[LoboLives]

What I would really like to see is a 4 section, 5 octave synth similar to the ARP Quadra. A monophonic bass section, a duophonic section, a poly section and monophonic lead section. It would be nice to have an analog synth with more than two splits and the ability to have each section have it's own sequencer. If I'm not mistaken couldn't the Andromeda do this?

[DavidDever]

What I would really like to see is a 4 section, 5 octave synth similar to the ARP Quadra. A monophonic bass section, a duophonic section, a poly section and monophonic lead section. It would be nice to have an analog synth with more than two splits and the ability to have each section have it's own sequencer. If I'm not mistaken couldn't the Andromeda do this?

The Waldorf Q could do this (four live zones for Inst 1-4, each with their own running sequence)...and it also had a multitimbral mode. The Ensoniq keyboards could also do this easily.

[LoboLives]

What I would really like to see is a 4 section, 5 octave synth similar to the ARP Quadra. A monophonic bass section, a duophonic section, a poly section and monophonic lead section. It would be nice to have an analog synth with more than two splits and the ability to have each section have it's own sequencer. If I'm not mistaken couldn't the Andromeda do this?

The Waldorf Q could do this (four live zones for Inst 1-4, each with their own running sequence)...and it also had a multitimbral mode. The Ensoniq keyboards could also do this easily.

I don't think they were analog though. That's what I'm saying an analog synth with that capability could really stand out among everything else currently on the market.

[Paul Dither]

For anyone who's interested, here's I think the most comprehensive piece about the Quadra from 2 Sound On Sound issues:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160303190451/http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Apr02/articles/retrozone0402.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20120110121807/http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may02/articles/retrozone0502.asp

[F5D]

If DSI discontinues the Prophet 08, then they must replace it by another 5 octave keyboard. If not, then the P12 would be their only 5 octave keyboard. It is just that 5 octaves is the standard for synthesizers. The new 4 oct synths are a result of cutting corners to get lower price. I have 3 synths with 4 octave keyboards (Waldorf XTk, Roland JD-XA and Nord Lead 3) and despite them all being great synths, I always feel limited with the 4 octave keybed, not even requiring any layering. A good example is playing big pads with double octave bass notes, yet still reaching high enough for sparkle. Cannot be done with 4 oct synths. I feel sad that DSI is discontinuing the Prophet 08, but on the other hand there are several things they could improve on the design. IMO the layout of the Prophet 12 is quite perfect with the two wheels to the left of the keyboard, silk screen print and not overlay graphics. The ideal "Prophet 08 mk2" would have the Prophet 12 chassis, keyboard, display and modulation system with 4 LFOs etc. as the basis. The differences would be in the synth engine with analog oscillators + real noise generator circuit (not a sample) like that of the Prophet 08 with mix knob in the mixer section and possibility to use that noise generator as a high sample rate modulation source in the mod matrix. Also for this, the P08 noise source works much better than that of the P12. Nothing beats a high speed analog noise modulation source -> Butter. Btw, having sliders instead of knobs would also be a nice upgrade. I much prefer using sliders for envelopes etc. The DM12 seems to have a quite succesful design, but only 4 octaves of keybed.

[Paul Dither]

[…] The differences would be in the synth engine with analog oscillators + real noise generator circuit (not a sample) like that of the Prophet 08 with mix knob in the mixer section and possibility to use that noise generator as a high sample rate modulation source in the mod matrix. Also for this, the P08 noise source works much better than that of the P12. Nothing beats a high speed analog noise modulation source -> Butter.

I believe though that the Prophet '08 noise generator is just as digital as it was on the Prophet-5, OB-Xa, etc. Nevertheless, it's of course differently implemented compared to the Prophet 12, as it's based on a dedicated microprocessor and not part of a wavetable selection.

[F5D]

I believe though that the Prophet '08 noise generator is just as digital as it was on the Prophet-5, OB-Xa, etc. Nevertheless, it's of course differently implemented compared to the Prophet 12, as it's based on a dedicated microprocessor and not part of a wavetable selection.

I remember reading too that the noise generator of the Prophet 08 is indeed a digital circuit, but operates at really high clock compared to typical bandwidth limited modulation busses of synths, and results in noise that is similar to analog noise generators, but simpler in design. I do not know how DSI implemented the noise modulation source in the mod matrix of P08, but I believe it uses the noise generator output that is sampled at relatively high frequency, because it sounds much smoother than that of P12 noise, when using it as mod source for pitch or filter cutoff modulation. In the case of P12 it sounds very close to what a typical S&H mod source sounds, i.e. much creepier and quantized compared to what a high speed sampled or truly analog white noise modulation source does. Actually, who knows if DSI uses VCAs for the most critical osc pitch and filter cutoff modulation paths in P08 to get that smooth noise modulation to work? If I was to design a synthesizer, I sure would. Everything would be built around modulation. I would actually put the panel full of noise mod amount knobs in every section. I love noise. 

[Fuseball]

I remember reading too that the noise generator of the Prophet 08 is indeed a digital circuit, but operates at really high clock compared to typical bandwidth limited modulation busses of synths, and results in noise that is similar to analog noise generators, but simpler in design. I do not know how DSI implemented the noise modulation source in the mod matrix of P08, but I believe it uses the noise generator output that is sampled at relatively high frequency, because it sounds much smoother than that of P12 noise, when using it as mod source for pitch or filter cutoff modulation. In the case of P12 it sounds very close to what a typical S&H mod source sounds, i.e. much creepier and quantized compared to what a high speed sampled or truly analog white noise modulation source does. Actually, who knows if DSI uses VCAs for the most critical osc pitch and filter cutoff modulation paths in P08 to get that smooth noise modulation to work? If I was to design a synthesizer, I sure would. Everything would be built around modulation. I would actually put the panel full of noise mod amount knobs in every section. I love noise. 

A synthesist after my own heart.

Noise as modulation source is the P'08's secret weapon and the one thing I'm completely unable to adequately replicate on other synths. The implementation of noise was my biggest disappointment with the P12. Not only did it always use up an oscillator, but it never made a smooth modulation source either. It's been a while but I remember getting some weird phasing issues too as each voice effectively had its own noise oscillator playing the same wave out of phase.

I often think that if I could keep one synth and one synth only, it would have to be my P'08. It still has the ability to surprise me, and that's largely down to the modulation possibilities. If DSI do replace it with something comparable in terms of features then I hope they retain at least some of those things that the P'08 got absolutely right (multiple LFOs, comprehensive routing, noise!).

Personally, although I'm not expecting it I would love to see what they could do with the reissued CEM3340. My only hands-on experience of that IC is with the Jupiter 6 and it sounds great, particularly with the ability to stack/mix waveforms and modulate cross-mod with an envelope. I've also found it to be very stable for a vintage VCO design.

[F5D]

Noise as modulation source is the P'08's secret weapon and the one thing I'm completely unable to adequately replicate on other synths. The implementation of noise was my biggest disappointment with the P12. Not only did it always use up an oscillator, but it never made a smooth modulation source either. It's been a while but I remember getting some weird phasing issues too as each voice effectively had its own noise oscillator playing the same wave out of phase.

I have also found that the noise in my other synths does not work as well as a modulation source, as it does in P'08. For some reason, also in Solaris the noise source sounds quantised when used as modulator, and I am very surprised about this because it is supposed to run at 96 kHz, such as all the rest of the signals in that synth. With most synths, the results of using noise as mod source are creepy, like you get with S&H. It is still usable at small amounts, but going to that buttery smooth almost real acoustic brassy sound of P'08 is difficult. I agree that programming P12 after P'08 needs getting used to, mainly because it does not have a dedicated noise generator. That is IMO the biggest drawback of the P12. You need to set one of the oscillators as noise and then it plays multiple times, if you play polyphonically. In the early firmwares, this caused phasing. I actually started the discussion on the old forum about the phasing issue, and after several dozen posts and sound examples, DSI agreed that there is an issue and they made a change in the P12 firmware, so that not all oscillators & notes trigger the noise in near same phase that caused the phasing. Now, there is much more randomness between the P12 noise oscillators triggered by different keys, so that the phasing is gone and sounds more like a single noise generator, but still eating up one oscillator per voice. I always have the osc 4 set as noise.

Would be interesting to know, whether DSI used the noise generator of the P'08 in Prophet 6 or OB6? I have not really played those synths much (only quickly at store), because I consider them going too much backwards in features compared to P'08. I am surprised in general, how low emphasis most synth designers and players give to using noise of synthesizers. IMO it is essential in all sound design, just makes everything sound better and more natural, both when mixed in the mixer, and as a modulation source. DSI should listen and reuse the Prophet '08 noise generator in all of their future synth designs. It does not get better than that. I wonder, do they realize the quality of that implementation? I hope so. Some people think that noise is only needed for fx whoosh and drum hihat / cymbal sounds. You cannot find any sound programmed by me that does not have at least 1 % noise in some form. Not using noise should be made criminal.

[Paul Dither]

Would be interesting to know, whether DSI used the noise generator of the P'08 in Prophet 6 or OB6?

The noise source in those synths is as discreet as in the Prophet '08. However, that only is the audio noise source. The one with which you can modulate is based on the S+H waveform in the LFO section. You have to turn its frequency to the maximum value to get noise as a modulation source.