What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

[_ADSR_]

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

What would you do if Dave did a reissue of the Prophet 5.

No, really.  Just stop for a second and think about it....

Well of course, I would wait a year for the P10! 

[Sacred Synthesis]

Honestly, I'd take a Prophet '08 over a Prophet 5 reissue.  Not that I wouldn't love a Prophet 5!  But my reasoning follows the same preference of an '08 over a 6.  They're all superb instruments in their own way, but the "08 is the most flexible.

[Paul Dither]

If DSI had any interest in releasing a Prophet-5 reissue and doing it the "Moog way," they would have done so in early 2014. But they chose to go the re-imagined route and released the Prophet-6 instead, which makes a Prophet-5 reissue pretty much unnecessary. And who would buy a Prophet-10 reissue? Maybe the few people that also got a Schmidt. It would just end up being a studio instrument due to its bulky size, which in turn would make it totally useless for any live use in this day and age. It's simply not 1980 anymore.

@eXode:
I took a closer look at some stores, and it really seems like the Prophet '08 is slowly disappearing. It's either not being carried at all anymore, or it can be had for $1,249.99 (keyboard) or $1,099.99 (module). Those are insane prices for what you get. I'd recommend to anyone who's been on the edge about it for a while to take the plunge.

[tumble2k]

Okay I'm going to predict a DCO-based instrument with a SHARC driving the DCOs with audio rate LFOs, and a LPF and HPF combination. The price will be higher than the '08 currently is. It will have all of the user interface improvements and the 16 modulation routes of the P12 but a full analog signal path. We will all have to own at least one.

[eXode]

Okay I'm going to predict a DCO-based instrument with a SHARC driving the DCOs with audio rate LFOs, and a LPF and HPF combination. The price will be higher than the '08 currently is. It will have all of the user interface improvements and the 16 modulation routes of the P12 but a full analog signal path. We will all have to own at least one.

But do you think that it would be discrete DCO's, and would discrete DCO's even make sense for DSI/Sequential?

[eXode]

We've discussed the new CEM's a couple of times already, but an user (oldcrow) on Muffwiggler, back when the news about the 3340G's came out, stated that Dave Smith backed the re-issue of the CEM's. Of course I don't know where he got his information from but if it's true It would seem unlikely that DSI/Sequential wouldn't use them. You can find the post in this thread:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2249931

[Paul Dither]

We've discussed the new CEM's a couple of times already, but a user (oldcrow) on Muffwiggler, back when the news about the 3340G's came out, stated at the time that Dave Smith backed the re-issue of the CEM's. Of course I don't know where he got his information from but if it's true It would seem unlikely that DSI/Sequential wouldn't use them. You can find the post in this thread:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2249931

It has been stated via Matrixsynth that DSI haven't been involved in the reissue. The according announcement even includes a quotation by DSI:

http://www.matrixsynth.com/2016/06/curtis-cem3340-vco-chips-re-issued.html

Dieter Doepfer was involved though.

[eXode]

We've discussed the new CEM's a couple of times already, but a user (oldcrow) on Muffwiggler, back when the news about the 3340G's came out, stated at the time that Dave Smith backed the re-issue of the CEM's. Of course I don't know where he got his information from but if it's true It would seem unlikely that DSI/Sequential wouldn't use them. You can find the post in this thread:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2249931

Yeah, I guess that makes sense considering the previous discussion about the CEM's not being surface mount, and the fact that Dave seem to have a good thing going with his discrete VCO's.

It has been stated via Matrixsynth that DSI haven't been involved in the reissue. The according announcement even includes a quotation by DSI:

http://www.matrixsynth.com/2016/06/curtis-cem3340-vco-chips-re-issued.html

Dieter Doepfer was involved though.

Yeah, that makes sense considering that Dave is using a discrete design, etc.

[Paul Dither]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense considering the previous discussion about the CEM's not being surface mount, and the fact that Dave seem to have a good thing going with his discrete VCO's.

That's basically why I can't really see any surplus value for DSI in designing either a DCO-based or a Curtis-VCO-based analog synth.

Furthermore, the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 proved to be super successful. Why should their next step be designing yet another analog poly synth, only with different oscillators? At best, it would cut into the sales of the other analog models, which cannot really be the goal of DSI. At least it would have to be a substantially different synth compared to the Prophet-6 and the OB-6, and I'm skeptical whether a difference like the one between a Prophet '08 and a Prophet-6 would already be big enough for such an endeavour.

[tumble2k]

But do you think that it would be discrete DCO's, and would discrete DCO's even make sense for DSI/Sequential?

Yeah good point. I didn't think about that at all. And to Paul Dither's point, Sequential has a good thing going with his VCO synths. I'd still like to see something bitimbral with a 61-key keyboard with the P'08 getting phased out right before NAMM and all...

[Paul Dither]

I absolutely undestand the wish for a proper Prophet '08 successor, but I find it hard to image how DSI could squeeze that in next to the Prophet-6 and the OB-6.

Mainly for two reasons:
a) A lack of overly innovative aspects from a developer's POV
b) Too many overlaps with other current products and according losses in sales if that would be ignored

The only way I could imagine a successor happening would be if DSI inverted the intention of the original Prophet '08, meaning: If they'd conceptualize an analog poly synth that should not be affordable in the first place, but an instrument that is designed to surpass the Prophet-6 and OB-6 in terms of functionality, polyphony, and price (not from the customer's perspective). Something that would end up in the Modal Electronics 008 range, but maybe with around 10 voices. Not sure how people would respond to something like that though, i.e. how big the market would be.

On the other hand, this would still not solve the problem of a lack of innovation. After all, a bi-timbral Prophet-6 or OB-6 can already be put together by anyone who can afford a keyboard and a module, two keyboards, or two modules. So everything that would be left as an add-on is/are a couple of more modulation slots, and I'm not sure if DSI would sacrifice a whole year of development for something that can essentially be had with other synths they've already released, in particular the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2.

[jeffscottbrown]

I wonder if Moog will do a Poly. I've heard such rumors in the past from fairly reliable sources but it remains to be seen.

Who were the fairly reliable sources?

[DavidDever]

After all, a bi-timbral Prophet-6 or OB-6 can already be put together by anyone who can afford a keyboard and a module, two keyboards, or two modules. So everything that would be left as an add-on is/are a couple of more modulation slots, and I'm not sure if DSI would sacrifice a whole year of development for something that can essentially be had with other synths they've already released, in particular the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2.

I'm not convinced that a four-octave keyboard + desktop (which is in fact NOT rack-mountable) module ticks the same roadworthiness boxes (remove from case, plop onto stand, plug in IEC-3 AC mains cable and connect to direct boxes)–nor would four octaves be enough to handle a split-keyboard scenario, given a decent number of voices (8+).

Of the existing offerings, the Prophet-12 is sooo close, but the Curtis filters just don't sing the same way that the Pro-2's SEM (OB-6) + SSM (Prophet-6) filter combination does; the lack of a decent sequencer is also a bit of an ankleweight.

And I am definitely convinced that the custom Marion/DSI Curtis IC is going away–it's just not cost-effective, compared to the discrete filter design(s)....

[tumble2k]

And I am definitely convinced that the custom Marion/DSI Curtis IC is going away–it's just not cost-effective, compared to the discrete filter design(s)....

I find this statement interesting. You seem to be saying that the discrete filters are cheaper than the Curtis chip. Does this mean that the VCOs are the main expense of the Prophet 6 compared to the Prophet '08?

Anyway with DSI, it all comes down to what they can make for a reasonable cost. I like that they make products that are somewhat affordable (at least compared to Modal, etc.)

[eXode]

Regardless if it makes sense for them I would really like to see a Sequential Prophet-8:

61 note keyboard with velocity and aftertouch
Layer/Split
8 Voices
2 VCO's
1 SUB -1 OCT Square
1 CEM or SSM 4 Pole LPF
1 SEM 2 Pole SVF
 - Alternatively a switchable 4 Pole/2 Pole LPF based on CEM or SSM
2 Envelope Generators (minimum)
2 LFO's (minimum), one global and one per voice
 - Individual depth between i.e. Pitch, PW, and LPF
PolyMod section
2 Digital FX from the Prophet-6/OB-6

[Sacred Synthesis]

Regardless if it makes sense for them I would really like to see a Sequential Prophet-8:

61 note keyboard with velocity and aftertouch
Layer/Split
8 Voices
2 VCO's
1 SUB -1 OCT Square
1 CEM or SSM 4 Pole LPF
1 SEM 2 Pole SVF
 - Alternatively a switchable 4 Pole/2 Pole LPF based on CEM or SSM
2 Envelope Generators (minimum)
2 LFO's (minimum), one global and one per voice
 - Individual depth between i.e. Pitch, PW, and LPF
PolyMod section
2 Digital FX from the Prophet-6/OB-6

This is very nearly my dream instrument.  I would only add a third LFO and a third envelope, but I realize you're probably trying to keep the price down.

[Sacred Synthesis]

NAMM is exactly one month away (January 19), and that means it's decision time.  The obvious question is, What will DSI be offering for the new year?  Just as interesting, Will it or should it affect one's immediate future plans?  My approach is always to take the long and slow way.  First, whatever new instrument is offered will not be available probably until the spring.  Once it begins shipping, the next phase is the initial round of user-discovered software bugs or other complaints.  Following this, the first OS update is usually a few months in coming.  There are usually about three updates before the instrument is substantially completed.  It's not until this stage has been reached that I get interested, because I prefer to buy a brand new instrument with the updates installed by the company.  All of this amounts to at least a year's time.  As I said, the long and slow way.  So, there's really no need to panic over NAMM, unless you're an early pre-order buyer.  Our instinct is to hold off all purchases until NAMM is past and we have all the information about the new year's new instruments, but there's usually plenty of time until the forthcoming instruments are released and tidied up.

My intention is to buy another Prophet '08 Module to complete my three-unit system, so this takes priority over NAMM.  The key is timing: when exactly will the P'08 be discontinued?  For financial reasons, I would prefer another four months or so.

Personally, the only thing that could change my plan is the appearance of a truly worthy successor to the Prophet '08. A brand new keyboard/module pair such as Exode just described above could require that the breaks be applied.  And that would be a wonderful interruption!

Chris, Tracy, Carson - please do us the huge favor of announcing well in advance when you'll be retiring the Prophet '08.  Please!

[Jason]

the only thing that could change my plan is the appearance of a truly worthy successor to the Prophet '08.

I am probably one of the few who does not want to see that. I am perfectly happy with the setup I have. But I know myself, and if something better comes along, it will probably sour my view of my rig and cause me to consider saving, selling, buying, reprogramming, etc... and probably not in that order.

[Sacred Synthesis]

the only thing that could change my plan is the appearance of a truly worthy successor to the Prophet '08.

I am probably one of the few who does not want to see that. I am perfectly happy with the setup I have. But I know myself, and if something better comes along, it will probably sour my view of my rig and cause me to consider saving, selling, buying, reprogramming, etc... and probably not in that order.

You're definitely not the only one, Jason.  I actually don't want to see a replacement for the Prophet '08 either, but I'm facing the inevitable.  The P'08 stock is clearly running out in the major music stores, so something is up.  I'm quite happy with my current set up, too, and the appearances of the last several DSI synthesizers didn't badly affect that contentment, but only increased it.  Maybe it will happen again that another new instrument will only make us appreciate all the more the strengths of the Prophet '08.

[Jason]

The P'08 stock is clearly running out in the major music stores, so something is up.

I agree. They seem to be blowing them out wherever they are still available. There's a comfort in having the '08 still in production, but they should continue to function just fine for many years to come. I also think DSI will continue to give good support for them, even after that sad, final day.