What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

[eXode]

Did I imagine this, or did Dave specify at some interview that they are working on another keyboard?

[Sacred Synthesis]

But the Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12 and not meant to be either a second Poly Evolver or a surrogate for the Prophet '08. Being a hybrid synth it doesn't indicate that it needs to sound exactly like any fully analog synth by definition. In fact, one could ask, why it should excel at analog sounds in the first place, because if it was meant to do so, it would have been released with the according oscillators anyway. So I couldn't even understand those who would be offended by those people who are saying that it doesn't sound analog enough.

You're right, I completely agree with you.  The Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12, and not a this or a that.  But if you'll trace the instrument from its first release - including the advertising - you'll find endless claims that it can sound just as analog as any other pure analog instrument, except, perhaps a Model D.  Such claims have been everywhere, and I'm sure you've followed many of these colorful debates on the other forums.  You can find numerous videos that are supposed to prove that this is the case.  In fact, there's a P12 demonstration on YouTube that I recently listened to with great interest that made just this claim.  My response after carefully listening to it was that it made one of the best cases as to why this is not the case. 

Now, you and I will have to have a gentleman's disagreement on one thing - the claim that listening to online demonstrations cannot give you a reasonably accurate sense of an instrument's tonal character.  I say, Oh yes it can (But, of course, I'm referring to high quality recordings, not those done with a cheap phone mic.).  I've bought every instrument I've owned as of late on nothing other than YouTube videos.  I haven't played a single  instrument in a music store for decades.  I can listen to many Prophet '08 videos and know for certain that it has just the sound I want.  The same is true for the ARP Odyssey. And I can listen to Voyager videos, and then Model D videos, and tell there is a striking difference between the two synthesizers.  True, it's not 100% accurate, but it's more than enough to assess an instrument.  And so, I can listen to Prophet 12 demonstrations - and even more - I can listen to many of them repeatedly, and get a fairly accurate sense of the tone.  Sure, trying one in a music store would certainly be helpful, but it's not necessary.  Besides, I've looked and looked, in vain.

The Prophet 12 is what it is.  It clearly doesn't suit some of us analog enthusiasts.  And to show what a progressive, futuristic, moving-forward, up-to-speed, modernist sort of guy I am (), I'm more than ready to look towards a forthcoming instrument.  I know very well what my musical needs are, and I'm not looking for a thrill from either a new or an old instrument; I'm simply trying to find the synthesizer that will best fulfill those needs.   

[Sacred Synthesis]

Did I imagine this, or did Dave specify at some interview that they are working on another keyboard?

Yes, you're correct. That's what this and the other related thread are about.  Something potentially large is coming.

[Paul Dither]

Did I imagine this, or did Dave specify at some interview that they are working on another keyboard?

It's in the interview I posted below. - Enough shameless self-promotion now…

[eXode]

I have to say that I'm curious about this winter NAMM. Of course I hope that Korg will show us something bigger based on the Minilogue. Somehow it seems that the Monologue was too small to be "it" and perhaps that very reason made them announce it early, because that other thing would otherwise steal all the light.

I wasn't that impressed initially with the Minilogue, but after hearing Adam Borseti's demos in particular my interest was reignited. However I will not buy another 4 voice poly and the small keyboard (despite Adam's apparent skills) is just too off putting. If they won't do something with decent keys I hope they do a desktop/module.

[Paul Dither]

You're right, I completely agree with you.  The Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12, and not a this or a that.  But if you'll trace the instrument from its first release - including the advertising - you'll find endless claims that it can sound just as analog as any other pure analog instrument, except, perhaps a Model D.  That's a fact.  Such claims were everywhere.  You can find numerous videos that are supposed to prove that this is the case.  In fact, a P12 demonstration appeared on YouTube only about a month ago making just this claim, and I believe it was even in the video title.  My response after carefully listening to it was that it made one of the best cases as to why this is not the case!  In other words, to my ears it sounded terrible.

But those claims are coming from users and not really from DSI. And fully I agree with all the rest. I think I even remember the video you're referring to. I thought it sounded nice, but not particularly analog in the sense of a classic type of sound. It reminded me a little bit of what can also be achieved on a Prophet '08 if one doesn't care about traditional analog sounds like strings or brass types. I know you're not only shooting for those either, I only name them as classic examples.

Now, you and I will have to have a gentleman's disagreement on one thing - the claim that listening to online demonstrations cannot give you a reasonably accurate sense of an instrument's tonal character.  I say, Oh yes it can (But, of course, I'm referring to high quality recordings, not those done with a cheap phone mic.).  I have bought every instrument I've owned as of late on nothing other than YouTube videos.  I haven't played a single  instrument in a music store for decades.  I can listen to many Prophet '08 videos and know for certain that it has just the sound I want.  I can listen to Voyager videos, and then Model D videos, and tell there is a striking difference.  True, it's not 100% accurate, but it's more than I need to assess an instrument.  And so, I can listen to Prophet 12 demonstrations - and even more - I can listen to many of them repeatedly, and get a fairly accurate sense of the tone.  Sure, trying one in a music store would certainly be helpful, but it's not necessary.  Besides, I've looked and looked, in vain.

I believe you. As for the online examples I'd say yes and no. Of course you can get an immediate impression of the sonic character, without a doubt. I'm not questioning that. But, in most cases, I found it really helpful to be able to listen to an instrument in person, and also to interact with it, as I consider the overall ergonomic feel to be just as important. The latter aside, I have to say that every instrument sounded better to me in person: from the Evolver, the Prophet '08, the Pro 2 to the Prophet-6. In all cases, I've heard them before via YouTube or SoundCloud, but actually listening to them in person was so much better. I remember hitting the first note on the Prophet '08 thinking, "wow, this sounds really big." And I only made the decision to order a Pro 2 after I had a go at it in a shop, which also left a long lasting impression. I could expand that to non-DSI instruments as well. Even known authorities like the Minimoog and the Two Voice Pro sounded so much cooler in person, mainly for the earth shattering impact of their raw sound. There's just a different sense of physicality and plasticity you get out of that experience that doesn't translate well via a YouTube video or a SoundCloud file, be it high quality or not. I would compare it a bit to evaluating something outside of its natural habitat. To take an extreme example: Take a church choir and place it in a sound-absorbing room vs listening to it in an actual church with all the reverberation. It's the latter that gives you the chills.

To show what a progressive, futuristic, moving-forward, up-to-speed, modernist sort of guy I am (), I'm more than ready to look towards a forthcoming instrument.  I know very well what my musical needs are, and I'm not looking for a thrill from either a new or an old instrument; I'm simply trying to find the synthesizer that will best fulfill those needs.

To look on the sunny side: You have already found two of those instruments, which you absolutely master according to your musical needs. I'm serious about that: I don't know of anybody who's able to push the Evolver and the Prophet '08 into this kind of lush sounding territory that you are almost famous for by now. And I even mean that with regard to your organ-inspired sounds. If someone would have told me there's this guy who's capable of really great pipe organ sounds on synths, I would have probably yawned without having the opportunity of listening. But the way in which you've been able to emulate expressive and pleasing organ timbres on the Evolver and the Prophet still impresses me. And most importantly, one can quickly sense that those synths just seem to work for you and according to your unique goals. And that is basically why I was wondering about your concern with regard to the Prophet '08 or rather a possible follow-up instrument.

In terms of predictability I do agree though: It never seemed harder to guess what's to come than this time around.

[Sacred Synthesis]

You're right, I completely agree with you.  The Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12, and not a this or a that.  But if you'll trace the instrument from its first release - including the advertising - you'll find endless claims that it can sound just as analog as any other pure analog instrument, except, perhaps a Model D.  That's a fact.  Such claims were everywhere.  You can find numerous videos that are supposed to prove that this is the case.  In fact, a P12 demonstration appeared on YouTube only about a month ago making just this claim, and I believe it was even in the video title.  My response after carefully listening to it was that it made one of the best cases as to why this is not the case!  In other words, to my ears it sounded terrible.

But those claims are coming from users and not really from DSI. And fully I agree with all the rest. I think I even remember the video you're referring to. I thought it sounded nice, but not particularly analog in the sense of a classic type of sound. It reminded me a little bit of what can also be achieved on a Prophet '08 if one doesn't care about traditional analog sounds like strings or brass types. I know you're not only shooting for those either, I only name them as classic examples.

Similarly, my first thought was that a Prophet '08 could do much better.

I have to say that DSI themselves offered some very favorable words about the Prophet 12's analog prowess.  It was a selling point and one that had me expecting better results.

[Sacred Synthesis]

I believe you. As for the online examples I'd say yes and no. Of course you can get an immediate impression of the sonic character, without a doubt. I'm not questioning that. But, in most cases, I found it really helpful to be able to listen to an instrument in person, and also to interact with it, as I consider the overall ergonomic feel to be just as important. The latter aside, I have to say that every instrument sounded better to me in person: from the Evolver, the Prophet '08, the Pro 2 to the Prophet-6. In all cases, I've heard them before via YouTube or SoundCloud, but actually listening to them in person was so much better. I remember hitting the first note on the Prophet '08 thinking, "wow, this sounds really big." And I only made the decision to order a Pro 2 after I had a go at it in a shop, which also left a long lasting impression. I could expand that to non-DSI instruments as well. Even known authorities like the Minimoog and the Two Voice Pro sounded so much cooler in person, mainly for the earth shattering impact of their raw sound. There's just a different sense of physicality and plasticity you get out of that experience that doesn't translate well via a YouTube video or a SoundCloud file, be it high quality or not. I would compare it a bit to evaluating something outside of its natural habitat. To take an extreme example: Take a church choir and place it in a sound-absorbing room vs listening to it in an actual church with all the reverberation. It's the latter that gives you the chills.

Yes, I agree.  In listening to online demos, you can be certain that virtually everything will sound better in person, but that's part of the equation.  I don't mean to belittle the value of firsthand experience.  It's nice when you can manage it.  But that aside, good instruments will sooner or later sound good online.  At some point, a video is bound to appear that is better than the rest, and that gives a you chance to make a reliable judgment.

[Sacred Synthesis]

To look on the sunny side: You have already found two of those instruments, which you absolutely master according to your musical needs. I'm serious about that: I don't know of anybody who's able to push the Evolver and the Prophet '08 into this kind of lush sounding territory that you are almost famous for by now. And I even mean that with regard to your organ-inspired sounds. If someone would have told me there's this guy who's capable of really great pipe organ sounds on synths, I would have probably yawned without having the opportunity of listening. But the way in which you've been able to emulate expressive and pleasing organ timbres on the Evolver and the Prophet still impresses me. And most importantly, one can quickly sense that those synths just seem to work for you and according to your unique goals. And that is basically why I was wondering about your concern with regard to the Prophet '08 or rather a possible follow-up instrument.

Thank you.  Those are very kind words, coming from a synth-master like yourself.  Now I regret ever disagreeing with you and I'll never ever do it again. 

As for your last sentence, it's due to the fact that I'm not quite there yet.  I really do need another P'08 module or two to achieve what I have musically in mind.  And I also need another Evolver Desktop, because the bass is not as outstanding as I want it to be.  So, it's annoying when the few instruments I need are on the chopping block, yet again.  It makes it all the more difficult to get to that musical plateau that takes several years of climbing to reach.

[Paul Dither]

Thank you.  Those are very kind words, coming from a synth-master like yourself.  Now I regret disagreeing with you and I'll never ever do it again. 

Come on, I really meant that. Plus: I have no problems with disagreements. It would be very boring if we all liked and did the same things. And I didn't feel attacked nor did I mean to attack anybody else. If I argue, I usually try to push the discussion a bit.

Above that, I didn't forget that the Prophet '08 is an amazing and versatile synth. It's just that I can't see an immediate successor happening right now, that's basically it - partially by trying to put myself into the mindset of DSI, partially due to my own wishes (which don't count anyway). At this point, I think that we have all exhausted our imagination about what could be coming after January: Be it another analog synth, a wavetable synth, a vector synth, a sampler, or a vocoder. Maybe it's even going to be something that doesn't meet any of those criteria. After all, the wait will be over soon.

As for your last sentence, it's due to the fact that I'm not quite there yet.  I really do need another P'08 module or two to achieve what I have musically in mind.  And I also need another Evolver Desktop, because the bass is not as outstanding as I want it to be.  So, it's annoying when the few instruments I need are on the chopping block, yet again.  It makes it all the more difficult to get to that musical plateau that takes several years of climbing to reach.

You're really working on the legend here. If you should really end up building the massive system you have in mind, I have to visit you at some point to hear that setup in person. 

[LoboLives]

 

[Paul Dither]

Looks definitely nice! Although it doesn't need two wheel sections. 

I remember that Dave has been asked for something like that at the NAMM show 2015, but his reply was ‘no,' so you'd need a good carpenter.

[Paul Dither]

Oh, I just recognized the "20." Naughty…

[Sacred Synthesis]

As for your last sentence, it's due to the fact that I'm not quite there yet.  I really do need another P'08 module or two to achieve what I have musically in mind.  And I also need another Evolver Desktop, because the bass is not as outstanding as I want it to be.  So, it's annoying when the few instruments I need are on the chopping block, yet again.  It makes it all the more difficult to get to that musical plateau that takes several years of climbing to reach.

You're really working on the legend here. If you should really end up building the massive system you have in mind, I have to visit you at some point to hear that setup in person. 

You're on!  One free pass to Ye Olde Music Room.  I may even put in windows for the occasion.

[Sacred Synthesis]

I'm just slightly bewildered by the tone of mourning with regard to the Prophet '08. The synth is not dead or discontinued yet, and even if it would be discontinued in the nearest future, we all know that DSI wouldn't drop their support for it in case anything goes wrong with an individual unit.

The issue is that late winter/early spring is synthesizer buying time for me.  So, winter NAMM is a last chance to get a glimpse at what may be coming out in the next six months or so, and whether or not there's reason to make a change in plans.  Barring the appearance of anything of interest from DSI or any other company, and barring any unforeseen animal attacks to my car, I'll almost certainly take the next step and buy another Prophet '08 Module.  I can get it brand new from DSI with the latest updates.  So, I don't want this instrument to go out of production!

[jdt9517]

I'll almost certainly take the next step and buy another Prophet '08 Module.  I can get it brand new from DSI with the latest updates.  So, I don't want this instrument to go out of production!

Prices are down on them too.  I see them on the  net for about $1000 new (not B Stock).  I got my P-12 Mod for $1299 new on Black Friday from a reputable shop.  I becomes kind of hard to pass them up at that price.

[dsetto]

Totally wild guess - sampler via VCF. Sampler-specific modulation with synthesis. And, it doesn't compete with VCO/DCO, or digital oscillator lines. A broken clock is right some times. 4 octaves, within $3k zone.

Too much over $3k zone doesn't seem to be their m.o.. A "stop-gap" offering while a very new item is still developing would be 5-octave P6 and OB-6's for $500 more. When DS comes out with a truly new offering, it seems it's usually pretty new. If not, it's clearly part of a line. I.e., thus far, for DSI, it's been pretty uncharacteristic to do a mark II, or an appreciably different variation of a recent synth.

Maybe, there's a new X-6 that can be folded into the  X-6 VCO line. Same basic format; different oscillator-filter. Yamaha CS?

At this point, I'm starting to throw out all ideas.

What I want: … I can't afford. What I can afford, that I'd want:
- 61-73 high quality keys
- very satisfying raw sound (all-analog; as discrete as is practical, within $3500 budget)
- bi-timbral, stereo, 4 output
- mostly knob per function except for a deeply programmable under-belly

and that's not going to happen.

--
how much would the following be:
a combined P6-OB6; 61 key, bi-timbral (split/stacked). 10 voice. (Figured 12 is too ideal.)
--
Is that $4k? Is that possible?

--
no chance the following is coming:
an analog piano. great weighted keys- (61/73). synth engine highlighting this focus. 

[eXode]

how much would the following be:
a combined P6-OB6; 61 key, bi-timbral (split/stacked). 10 voice. (Figured 12 is too ideal.)
--
Is that $4k? Is that possible?

I honestly don't think so, but perhaps something like this:
8 Voices
2 VCO's + SUB
2 Filters, SSM LPF + SEM SVF
2 LFO's
61 key
bi-timbral (split/stack)

[DavidDever]

how much would the following be:
a combined P6-OB6; 61 key, bi-timbral (split/stacked). 10 voice. (Figured 12 is too ideal.)
--
Is that $4k? Is that possible?

I honestly don't think so, but perhaps something like this:
8 Voices
2 VCO's + SUB
2 Filters, SSM LPF + SEM SVF
2 LFO's
61 key
bi-timbral (split/stack)

That would be perfectly fine, as far as I am concerned!

[DavidDever]

To that end - the Pro-2 gets the filter complement (SSM + SEM) right, and I can say with certainty that, given judicious use of the Character controls, it's pretty easy to squeeze out an exact match to the Mopho's voicing. I, too, have tried to warm to the Prophet-12's filter, but I just feel as if the DSP tone generation needs something a bit more organic than the Marion/DSI Curtis chip voice.

So - to that end - I would be quite happy with DSP tone generation, waveshaped DCOs, or discrete DSI / chip Curtis VCOs in a future product, provided that it had the SSM + SEM setup per voice. In fact, I would happily shell out full price for a Prophet-8 (or what have you) at retail and not think twice about it.