Global LFO

Tugdual · « **on:** August 29, 2019, 02:59:47 PM »

As you know, LFOs are per voice. Is it possible to emulate a legacy synth with a global LFO affecting all voices together?

Razmo · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2019, 02:33:58 AM »

This is one of the features many have requested over time, along with the LFO slew parameter... Two features Sequential really should think about implementing in the next OS update, instead of the users having to find obscure workarounds.

I know others have talked about a sort of workaround for a global LFO, but I do not remember the thread... Maybe someone else can direct you to it.

Besides, I think a new OS update is overdue... It has been quite some time since we have seen any bugs fixed.

Tugdual · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2019, 05:12:18 AM »

Quote from: Razmo on August 30, 2019, 02:33:58 AM

Besides, I think a new OS update is overdue... It has been quite some time since we have seen any bugs fixed.

Exactly my thoughts, I start thinking the REV2 is a legacy product already in the eyes of Sequential.

Another feature is the FM mod. It was on prophet 5 and not on P8 REV2

panic · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2019, 07:01:27 AM »

The workaround is syncing the LFO of the different voices manually:
- put in unison all voices
- enable keysync for the LFO
- play a note
- turn off keysync and unison

creativespiral · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2019, 10:17:05 AM »

I was playing with this a couple months back -

1. Turn on the gated sequencer
2. Draw out a triangle shape or sine shape over the 16 steps
3. Set the Gated Seq mode to No Gate/Rst (depending on preference for behavior)
4. Leave destination empty for the gated seq
5. In the Mod Matrix route Seq1 source to whatever destination you want (ie: cutoff)
6. For the Mod Matrix amount, set it to whatever you want the maximum amount of lfo swing... values from the Gated Seq will be scaled based on the max you set in Mod Amount.

Now you have a BPM controlled "virtual global LFO"... its not perfect solution, but it can be useful where you need a sort of global motion. You can also play around with seq slew in secondary lane.

Uploaded an example patch / template patch here:
https://www.presetpatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral

panic · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2019, 02:53:50 PM »

Hi spiral,

you corrected me on the behavior of the gated sequencer before, so probably it is just me who does not understand, but how is using the seq in no gate mode different from using a keysynced LFO? both are per voice activated by keypress, no? How does the gated sequencer sync between the voices?

Troy92Evans · « **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2019, 04:36:28 PM »

I’m obviously missing something so I’m curious as to what this means. I’d think putting it in the edit both layers mode, then using an LFO with keysync turned on would take care of this since everything oscillation would start together and have the same rate?

creativespiral · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2019, 05:02:47 PM »

Hmm... not sure about the mechanism for how the gated sequencer(s) align per voice, when in No Gate, No Reset mode.

It might just happen automatically whenever the preset is loaded?, and then is locked to BPM? Might require further testing. Maybe this weekend I'll check it out again.

The key trick of Global LFO behavior is that you don't want it key-sync'd... since you want to be able to hold some keys down and add additional notes, but not have each additional note start a new cycle.

Troy92Evans · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2019, 05:45:47 PM »

Yeah I actually thought about exactly that after I sent it but was driving. Sounds appealing for sure.

guyaguy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2019, 07:08:38 PM »

Quote from: Tugdual on August 30, 2019, 05:12:18 AM

Quote from: Razmo on August 30, 2019, 02:33:58 AM
Besides, I think a new OS update is overdue... It has been quite some time since we have seen any bugs fixed.
Exactly my thoughts, I start thinking the REV2 is a legacy product already in the eyes of Sequential.

Another feature is the FM mod. It was on prophet 5 and not on P8 REV2

It does offer some FM options, albeit no osc to osc FM. Audio Mod is FM. The LFOs also offer audio rate modulation of any parameter in the matrix.

creativespiral · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2019, 11:20:53 PM »

I checked the Gated Seq implementation for this type of Global LFO hack, and tried to "break the functionality"... and did so successfully... doh!

Seems that if you power on the Rev2, and go to this type of Gated Seq Global LFO patch, it works as intended, like a Global LFO. You can also switch around between other patches without the gated sequencer on, or with gated seq on in the same mode or Key Step mode.

However, if you switch to a different patch that has the gated sequencer on in a mode other than No Gate / No Reset or Key Step, then the Gated Sequencer voices can get out of sync, and when you go back to the Global LFO Gated Seq patch, they may not be all in phase any more.

So this method needs an asterisk *

If it could be implemented in a firmware update, it would be nice if the Gated Sequencer voices (and all LFOs per voice) were reset / re-sync'd upon patch initialization (or at least if it were an option in Globals). I think this would make it so you could use any LFO as a Global LFO too... for instance, if you have LFO1 set as no key sync, and all the LFOs are reset when the patch is loaded, then all sixteen LFO1s would run in phase. This would actually improve "sound parity" from session to session with a given patch too.

Am hoping we'll see another update for Rev2 soon... separate from this, there's a bug with the Gated Seq Key Step mode using multiple layers that has been confirmed...and I'm crossing fingers, hoping its fixed soon, as it will improve Voice Modeling and allow for better multi-layer syncopated motion patches.

Razmo · « **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2019, 09:25:26 AM »

In any case, it is ridiculous that so many users have to sit and deal with allthese complex workarounds, just to get a simple global LFO running... Also, such an added LFO would be a welcome addition for the mod matrix FX destinations, since the FX are global as well...

And LFO slew rate would allow for so many more interresting smooth modulation options, especially with more than one slewed LFO going to the same destination parameter...

I simply cannot believe that these two very often requested fearures can be that hard or time consuming to implement, and I seriously hope that Sequential will add them in the next OS update along with bug fixes.

Tugdual · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2019, 01:26:32 AM »

Quote from: guyaguy on August 30, 2019, 07:08:38 PM

Quote from: Tugdual on August 30, 2019, 05:12:18 AM
Quote from: Razmo on August 30, 2019, 02:33:58 AM
Besides, I think a new OS update is overdue... It has been quite some time since we have seen any bugs fixed.
Exactly my thoughts, I start thinking the REV2 is a legacy product already in the eyes of Sequential.

Another feature is the FM mod. It was on prophet 5 and not on P8 REV2
It does offer some FM options, albeit no osc to osc FM. Audio Mod is FM. The LFOs also offer audio rate modulation of any parameter in the matrix.

I actually played with audio mod but couldn’t achieve anything... audible. I guess you need to set the rev mono for a start? If anybody has a practical use of audio mod I would be interested in discovering application domain.
Edit: just found that the question had already been addressed herehttps://forum.sequential.com/index.php?topic=1957.0

guyaguy · « **Reply #13 on:** September 01, 2019, 08:32:01 AM »

Quote from: Tugdual on September 01, 2019, 01:26:32 AM

Quote from: guyaguy on August 30, 2019, 07:08:38 PM
Quote from: Tugdual on August 30, 2019, 05:12:18 AM
Quote from: Razmo on August 30, 2019, 02:33:58 AM
Besides, I think a new OS update is overdue... It has been quite some time since we have seen any bugs fixed.
Exactly my thoughts, I start thinking the REV2 is a legacy product already in the eyes of Sequential.

Another feature is the FM mod. It was on prophet 5 and not on P8 REV2
It does offer some FM options, albeit no osc to osc FM. Audio Mod is FM. The LFOs also offer audio rate modulation of any parameter in the matrix.
I actually played with audio mod but couldn’t achieve anything... audible. I guess you need to set the rev mono for a start? If anybody has a practical use of audio mod I would be interested in discovering application domain.
Edit: just found that the question had already been addressed herehttps://forum.sequential.com/index.php?topic=1957.0

That thread is about Audio Out. Audio Mod is in the filter section and is FM with Osc1 as source and Cutoff as destination. It can be used to add subtle harmonics or for bell tones if you use the filter as an oscillator.

creativespiral · « **Reply #14 on:** September 01, 2019, 10:58:40 AM »

To make audio mod more audible, crank up filter resonance, or max it out.

Of course, also turn up the Audio Mod Amount to max (or high amounts) if you want it more audible.

Then play with the frequency of Oscillator 1. Osc1 is the signal that is used to modulate the cutoff. You'll get very different effects depending on whether you have key tracking on or off for osc1.

OneLittleFonzie · « **Reply #15 on:** September 01, 2019, 12:51:35 PM »

Quote from: Razmo on August 31, 2019, 09:25:26 AM

In any case, it is ridiculous that so many users have to sit and deal with allthese complex workarounds, just to get a simple global LFO running... Also, such an added LFO would be a welcome addition for the mod matrix FX destinations, since the FX are global as well...

And LFO slew rate would allow for so many more interresting smooth modulation options, especially with more than one slewed LFO going to the same destination parameter...

I simply cannot believe that these two very often requested fearures can be that hard or time consuming to implement, and I seriously hope that Sequential will add them in the next OS update along with bug fixes.

I don't think they can implement it with the current architecture. The 8 (or 16) voices are just totally separated mono synths. There are some work-arounds/hacks. The solution with the step step is a nice one. I think an alternative solution could also be to use is (what is called in Cubase ) Auto LFO. That give a nice LFO you can use for a parameter.

Razmo · « **Reply #16 on:** September 01, 2019, 01:22:28 PM »

I don't think creating a global FX is impossibe... but I do not know how they built the REV2, so of course I cannot say... but then at least they could tell people that it's not possible... the silence is deafening...

creativespiral · « **Reply #17 on:** September 01, 2019, 01:42:50 PM »

I think the way I suggested with adding a new setting in Globals for "Reset LFOs on Patch Initialization: OFF | ON " would do it, and should be possible. If the setting was set to ON, then when any new patch is selected/initialized, the Rev would just re-sync the LFOs.

There's obviously an input for sync'ing LFOs, so it would just be a matter of sending a quick sync bit to all voices when a new patch is loaded. Maybe its more complex than that?.. but seems like that would be a good way to give users Global-like LFO functionality, where key-sync is set to OFF in patches.

Tugdual · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2019, 09:59:32 AM »

Quote from: Razmo on September 01, 2019, 01:22:28 PM

I don't think creating a global FX is impossibe... but I do not know how they built the REV2, so of course I cannot say... but then at least they could tell people that it's not possible... the silence is deafening...

I believe that all modulation sources are digital and that also explains why audio out is a source of modulation: the output signal is digitalized to feed effects. If I’m correct it should be possible to keep lfos in sync.

Mark0 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 02, 2019, 06:24:25 PM »

Hi there, first post here.
I just want to clarify something concerning the clock sync with the LFOs.

I've made a 4 bar MIDI sequence containing notes of various length and timing, at 120BPM, in ableton live. I'm sending MIDI out from babyface pro to the REV 2. The REV 2's LFO1 is set to reverse saw, 1 step speed with filter cutoff as destination (=filter stabs). Rev 2 is set to slave no S/S.

That said, even with clock sync enabled for LFO1, the LFO will end up being "de-synced" at some point. Playing the sequence after using the "unison + key sync + play note" workaround to sync the LFO works, but after pressing stop and then playing the sequence again, it ends up not being synced.

I would just like to have one LFO be consistent across all voices, regrdless of when they are played. Is a global LFO function really what I'm looking for or am I just doing something wrong?

Thanks a lot for the help. Feel free to redirect me to the solution if it's already been posted.

Side notes (that may or may not matter):
- In the REV 2's display, BPM nudges from 120 to 121 sometimes while playing back sequence.
- REV 2's display shows BPM not syncing to ableton's BPM right after starting playback (displaying random values from 114ish to 120 for a second before locking to 120).