Looking for an FM based synth.

[vinnyburns1@mac.com]

If you want some good DX FM fun, get a DX5 and a TX816. Both sound great. Love mine.

[Manbird]

After the early analogue synths, the DX7 might become the next collector item for nostalgic people born around 1969. Not because of the great user experience of FM programming on small screens, but because of sentimental value. "Why did I dump it back in 1992?"

I'm frightened by this very thought! I gleefully traded my nearly-new DX7 for a dusty old Prophet 5 back in the day. The music shop thought I was nuts and pitied me my poor decision, so they threw in a TR-707. Anyway, a billion years later and I can't help think, maybe there's something more to the DX7 than the digital wrongness I so didn't like. And given that I'm now willing to give nearly any and every synth a second chance, the DX7 has made its way onto a dangerous list!

[DavidDever]

After the early analogue synths, the DX7 might become the next collector item for nostalgic people born around 1969. Not because of the great user experience of FM programming on small screens, but because of sentimental value. "Why did I dump it back in 1992?"

Ha! I resemble that remark (but I kept mine).

[chysn]

After the early analogue synths, the DX7 might become the next collector item for nostalgic people born around 1969. Not because of the great user experience of FM programming on small screens, but because of sentimental value. "Why did I dump it back in 1992?"

It's an interesting thought. We are a generation predictably ruled by nostalgia. So predictably, in fact, that I think this would have happened already.

I always say that if I were to play in a band again, I'd buy a DX7 again. I loved its rock organ sounds. And I had a painstakingly-crafted acoustic piano patch that really sounded like an acoustic piano when slightly buried in a mix. Also, durable. It was made to last for decades.

Now... I do have a soft spot for the 8-algorithm 4-op Yamaha synths, particularly the TX81Z. I've owned like three of those things, and the non-sine operator waveforms really blew some doors open. My first actual synthesizer was a DX100, and I still remember discovering that the DX100 had 192 sounds in ROM instead of the obvious 92. These things make me think that I'd probably enjoy a Reface DX, despite its 4-op architecture.

[jdt9517]

The odds of a DX-7 becoming a collectors item is pretty low.  There were more than 200,000 of them made.  According to Wiki, it was the best selling synth of all time.  To think I unloaded my P-5 after getting a DX back in that heyday.  My crystal ball had broken just a few days before...    Still have the DX.  Wish I had the P-5.

[eXode]

Now... I do have a soft spot for the 8-algorithm 4-op Yamaha synths, particularly the TX81Z. I've owned like three of those things, and the non-sine operator waveforms really blew some doors open. My first actual synthesizer was a DX100, and I still remember discovering that the DX100 had 192 sounds in ROM instead of the obvious 92. These things make me think that I'd probably enjoy a Reface DX, despite its 4-op architecture.

Yeah, the Reface DX doesn't seem too bad (if it weren't for those small keys!). The sound seem very good and the fact that is has positive and negative feedback on each OP is a plus. Apparently this feedback shapes the operator from a sine to something like a square or a saw respectively at each extreme, giving it more possibilities than the DX100.

[DavidDever]

The odds of a DX-7 becoming a collectors item is pretty low.  There were more than 200,000 of them made.  According to Wiki, it was the best selling synth of all time.  To think I unloaded my P-5 after getting a DX back in that heyday.  My crystal ball had broken just a few days before...    Still have the DX.  Wish I had the P-5.

I don't bother listing it on my DSI forum profile, as it wasn't really that long ago that people were giving them away (mostly).

That said–there might be a serious aftermarket in replacement keys (easy) / contact PCBs (not as easy, not shared with M1 / DX7 mk II, etc.).

[LoboLives]

A friend of mine suggested a Nordwave but I don't know if that's really FM based. It sounds more sample oriented.

[Razmo]

Well... I've had quite a few FM synths over the years... ORLA DSE-24, DX7II, TX7, TX81Z, FS1R, TG77, FB-01, TG33, TX802... maybe even more, I don't remember.

If you want TRUE FM synthesis, you'd go for one of the older ones... they sound considerably warmer than the newer ones, and even the newer ones sound better than any software I've heard... much more punchy, and with much less aliasing.

The reason is that they all use custom FM chips... operating in megahertz rates, instead off all the newer software bandlimited ones running at 48Khz...

Also... many of the newer ones that offer more synthesis features like P12, even though they can sound FM'ish, they are usualy harder to program, than a real FM synth architecture... just try and create feedback-loops with the P12... it's not that easy, and you have to think in another way than when programing a real FM synth.

Also.. as I mentioned earlier, programing IS hard, and the outcome is rarely what you want it to be, so having an arsenal of other peoples presets is key (for me at least), since most other has very few... so if you go for these newer synths, you will have to start programing if you want a lot of options... that's why I myself, would go for a simple TX802 any day... it has 16bit DAC, it sounds warm, it's DX7 compatible and use custom FM chips.

[DavidDever]

Well... I've had quite a few FM synths over the years... ORLA DSE-24, DX7II, TX7, TX81Z, FS1R, TG77, FB-01, TG33, TX802... maybe even more, I don't remember.

If you want TRUE FM synthesis, you'd go for one of the older ones... they sound considerably warmer than the newer ones, and even the newer ones sound better than any software I've heard... much more punchy, and with much less aliasing.

The reason is that they all use custom FM chips... operating in megahertz rates, instead off all the newer software bandlimited ones running at 48Khz...

The original Rohm BA9221 12-bit ladder DAC in the DX7 runs at 48 kHz as well, with no oversampling (NOS), etc., giving it that slightly gritty, aliased sound to it. It's not anything special by any means.

The DX7 mkII and TX802 both use a stereo PCM54HP 16-bit ladder DAC, also NOS and running at 48 kHz, with no built-in effects. It is said that the data words are still 12-bit, extending the linearity but not effectively changing the data input into the DAC.

The SY-77 and -99 use a single-channel 4x-oversampling (176.4 kHz) multi-bit PCM56 DAC which is sampled-and-held, then multiplexed across four analogue outputs (effectively running at 44.1 kHz, rather than 48 kHz, per output channel).

It can be argued that the SY-series approach may provide a smoother-sounding output due to the S&H subsystem, though it's not strictly an FM-only synthesizer (has built-in effects + AWM synthesis as well).

So - in short, the later units actually run at a lower (CD-quality) sample rate, but with much better DACs.

[LoboLives]

Well... I've had quite a few FM synths over the years... ORLA DSE-24, DX7II, TX7, TX81Z, FS1R, TG77, FB-01, TG33, TX802... maybe even more, I don't remember.

If you want TRUE FM synthesis, you'd go for one of the older ones... they sound considerably warmer than the newer ones, and even the newer ones sound better than any software I've heard... much more punchy, and with much less aliasing.

The reason is that they all use custom FM chips... operating in megahertz rates, instead off all the newer software bandlimited ones running at 48Khz...

Also... many of the newer ones that offer more synthesis features like P12, even though they can sound FM'ish, they are usualy harder to program, than a real FM synth architecture... just try and create feedback-loops with the P12... it's not that easy, and you have to think in another way than when programing a real FM synth.

Also.. as I mentioned earlier, programing IS hard, and the outcome is rarely what you want it to be, so having an arsenal of other peoples presets is key (for me at least), since most other has very few... so if you go for these newer synths, you will have to start programing if you want a lot of options... that's why I myself, would go for a simple TX802 any day... it has 16bit DAC, it sounds warm, it's DX7 compatible and use custom FM chips.

You know I just tried a Montage today and the FM sounds are huge. Tron-strings, the classic low bell from Top Gun, classic FM piano, marimbas etc.  Even the FM sound design demos on Youtube really showcase the possibilities with just a single operator so you can imagine the sound with several. It's tricky if you are doing it from scratch but I have patience and I can always expand and manipulate the presets in the machine. I just wish...like I said...it was FMX only as there's enough Acoustic Modeling Engine synths out there. We'll have to see what comes out at Namm.

[Razmo]

I'm sure the Montage is cool... but it's way too expensive for what it does... so yes... like you, I'm waiting for Yamaha to distract the FM part of it, and put it into a new 1U rackmount unit ... I've been close to getting the Reface DX, but it is not DX7 compatible, and that is an absolute MUST in my case before I buy anything FM... I want access to that 15.000 preset library out there

[Razmo]

Well... I've had quite a few FM synths over the years... ORLA DSE-24, DX7II, TX7, TX81Z, FS1R, TG77, FB-01, TG33, TX802... maybe even more, I don't remember.

If you want TRUE FM synthesis, you'd go for one of the older ones... they sound considerably warmer than the newer ones, and even the newer ones sound better than any software I've heard... much more punchy, and with much less aliasing.

The reason is that they all use custom FM chips... operating in megahertz rates, instead off all the newer software bandlimited ones running at 48Khz...

The original Rohm BA9221 12-bit ladder DAC in the DX7 runs at 48 kHz as well, with no oversampling (NOS), etc., giving it that slightly gritty, aliased sound to it. It's not anything special by any means.

The DX7 mkII and TX802 both use a stereo PCM54HP 16-bit ladder DAC, also NOS and running at 48 kHz, with no built-in effects. It is said that the data words are still 12-bit, extending the linearity but not effectively changing the data input into the DAC.

The SY-77 and -99 use a single-channel 4x-oversampling (176.4 kHz) multi-bit PCM56 DAC which is sampled-and-held, then multiplexed across four analogue outputs (effectively running at 44.1 kHz, rather than 48 kHz, per output channel).

It can be argued that the SY-series approach may provide a smoother-sounding output due to the S&H subsystem, though it's not strictly an FM-only synthesizer (has built-in effects + AWM synthesis as well).

So - in short, the later units actually run at a lower (CD-quality) sample rate, but with much better DACs.

I've not dived that much into it, but I've been playing with FM chips in the past, and they are clocked in megahertz rates... I'm aware that this has to be divided down because of the many voices etc... and even if the end result is in the 44.1 to 48Khz area, I can still hear a remarkable difference to softsynth versions... they simply sound better to my ears... what exactly cause that I cannot say with certainty, but I really don't care either... I'll go for what sounds the best

Personaly I like the earlier models because they have more warmth... I like the architecture of the FS1R, but it is harshly cold and digital in it's sound in comparison to a DX7 or even an FB-01. This is why I'd go for a TX802... it has a cleaner output than the DX7, but still sounds warmer than an FS1R...

[LoboLives]

I'm sure the Montage is cool... but it's way too expensive for what it does... so yes... like you, I'm waiting for Yamaha to distract the FM part of it, and put it into a new 1U rackmount unit ... I've been close to getting the Reface DX, but it is not DX7 compatible, and that is an absolute MUST in my case before I buy anything FM... I want access to that 15.000 preset library out there

Maybe the Montage was just testing the waters to see what the interest in FM was as well as paying tribute to their past products. You never know...we might see a new DX keyboard AND rack unit next year. Fingers crossed.

[DavidDever]

Is availability of a wide variety of six-operator DX7-compatible patches really that important?

I thought that the point of this was to make music (yes, sure, keep telling yourself that  ), but also to make good use of the synthesis tools provided. In order to do this, you'd probably need some notion of how to assemble a working patch, right? If not - you'd want to get some notion quickly.

Perhaps this is just familiarity bias on my part, but one of the first things I do when I buy a synth is to clear out a range of empty patch locations (if the manufacturer has not already kindly done so, thanks Dave!). That, for me, was the way I learned how to program Yamaha FM units.

[Razmo]

Is availability of a wide variety of six-operator DX7-compatible patches really that important?

I thought that the point of this was to make music (yes, sure, keep telling yourself that  ), but also to make good use of the synthesis tools provided. In order to do this, you'd probably need some notion of how to assemble a working patch, right? If not - you'd want to get some notion quickly.

Perhaps this is just familiarity bias on my part, but one of the first things I do when I buy a synth is to clear out a range of empty patch locations (if the manufacturer has not already kindly done so, thanks Dave!). That, for me, was the way I learned how to program Yamaha FM units.

Sure... I'm a programmer type as well... but as with music, different people have different "flavours" of what they do, and I personally like to be able to use other peoples presets too... both because they come up with stuff I could not have made, but also do my own... and additionally, the availability of many presets is key to my productivity and inspiration... if I had to do all presets myself, I'd be spending too much time programing and too little making actual music... it simply gives you more options, and I like that

[Razmo]

I actually just bought a used TX802 today... and instantly I have more than 13.500+ presets available to me... giving me a whole new dimension to my projects, as these sounds have a different character than any other synth I've got.

[Razmo]

I'm sure the Montage is cool... but it's way too expensive for what it does... so yes... like you, I'm waiting for Yamaha to distract the FM part of it, and put it into a new 1U rackmount unit ... I've been close to getting the Reface DX, but it is not DX7 compatible, and that is an absolute MUST in my case before I buy anything FM... I want access to that 15.000 preset library out there

Maybe the Montage was just testing the waters to see what the interest in FM was as well as paying tribute to their past products. You never know...we might see a new DX keyboard AND rack unit next year. Fingers crossed.

Well... I hope to see a modern FM synth, that focus only on the FM part... or at least, if it has AWM2 onboard as well, will let you create your own samples ... one of the bad things of the Montage is that it does not allow for usage of the AWM inside the FM engine like the good old TG77..

My honest opinion about what I would like to see (and I have been wanting this for years!), is a FM synth, in a hybrid setup... where every voice has an analog VCF/VCA... you could say, or argue, that the P12 is just that, and to some extend it is, but I'd still like to see it happen using a "normal" FM programing approach.

But I don't think this will happen...

[jdt9517]

If you want TRUE FM synthesis, you'd go for one of the older ones...I can still hear a remarkable difference to softsynth versions... they simply sound better to my ears... what exactly cause that I cannot say with certainty, but I really don't care either... I'll go for what sounds the best

Personaly I like the earlier models because they have more warmth...

What I understand the differences are in the DAC's.  The differences in warmth don't come from the digital side. 

What amazes me is the interest in FM shown here. I thought FM was pretty much dead.  Once I studied it and got where I understood the basics, I found it fascinating.  Also, the combining of analog and FM makes for some great sound. My P-08 and DX work really well together.  The blended sound can be amazing!

[LoboLives]

If you want TRUE FM synthesis, you'd go for one of the older ones...I can still hear a remarkable difference to softsynth versions... they simply sound better to my ears... what exactly cause that I cannot say with certainty, but I really don't care either... I'll go for what sounds the best

Personaly I like the earlier models because they have more warmth...

What I understand the differences are in the DAC's.  The differences in warmth don't come from the digital side. 

What amazes me is the interest in FM shown here. I thought FM was pretty much dead.  Once I studied it and got where I understood the basics, I found it fascinating.  Also, the combining of analog and FM makes for some great sound. My P-08 and DX work really well together.  The blended sound can be amazing!

Reminds me of Dave Lawson's thunderous bass drones which were Prophet 5 rev 2 and Synclavier layered together. Mmmm delicious.