Looking for an FM based synth.

[LoboLives]

I'm looking for a new synthesizer to compliment a lot of the analog gear I have. I was interested in FM or VS or Wavetable style synths (trying to obtain sounds much like the FM of the DX7 or Synclavier or the VS of the Prophet VS etc) but couldn't decide which direction to go. While I think the DX Reface is neat it's a bit too small and it can't do splits or layers. The Waldorf Blofield is really attractive (PCM samples, Wavetable and FM synthesis) but I'm not too familiar with it. Most of my sequencing is going to come from my Kurzweil 2600XS so I'm not too worried about it having a sequencer but it would be a nice addition. I was also thinking about the Yamaha Montage although it is about $4k in Canada for the 61 keys (the one I'm interested in) and I don't know if it's worth it to get only for the FM sounds. Basically I'm looking for something that can do splits and layers and preferably can have multiple parts sequenced either internally or externally. Can anyone recommend any suggestions for a modern FM based synth?

[jdt9517]

How are you going to use it?  Do you plan to use it for live work, or part of a DAW?  If it is the latter, I would suggest finding a used DX-7 which is in good condition.  I wouldn't buy a reface because it only has 4 operators vs 6 in the original.   You can create the layers with additional tracks if they are important to you, but the instrument is not that layer friendly.  Do the layers in the DAW. 

There are so many DX's around, they can be had in nice condition for $250-$300. That's dirt cheap for something so capable. They are also really bullet proof.  So one which has had TLC will work just like a new one.  The DX7 is an amazing synth which few people have really tapped into its capabilities - because FM Synthesis is so difficult to master. Also, experience in analog synthesis is almost a detriment to learning FM

Have you programmed in FM before?  If you haven't, it's completely different from analog programming.  If you are not already proficient in FM programming, I would suggest two books to study - 1) Dr. John Chowning's book "FM Theory & Applications, By Musicians for Musicians".  It is out of print, but you can get used copies on Amazon.  The second book you can download from the net "The Complete DX7" by Howard Massey.

I was recently thinking of buying a Montage 8 and retire my S-90, but a P-12 module was offered to me at a price I couldn't pass up.  So, I got it.  I was looking at the montage for its FM capabilities, but it's going to have to wait awhile.  But alas, my S-90 and DX-7 are incredible.  The more I dig in to them, the more interesting possibilities I find.

The P-12 is supposed to have true Chowning style FM synthesis incorporated.  It will be interesting to see that it is like.  It may meet the standard of the DX or could fall perilously short.  It remains to be seen - but dollar for dollar, the DX will have about everything beat in the FM world. 

[DavidDever]

Within the Yamaha stable, I'd recommend an SY77 keyboard - they are relatively inexpensive (about US$300 used) and provide a nice five-octave DX7-style keybed, sixteen 6-operator AFM voices (45 algorithms / 3 feedback operators / 16 waveforms) across four simultaneous parts, with built-in effects, in addition to the usual AWM fare. They also seem to be more reliable (and lighter) than the 76-key SY99 models. The SY77 also supports 16-part multitimbrality, at the expense of some flexibility.

The FS1R rackmount is even better (similar to the FM-X capabilities of the Montage, 8-operator / 88 algorithms, etc.), but still relatively expensive.

A "vintage" DX7 mkII unit is not as well supported IMHO on the MIDI side without the now-unobtainable Grey Matter Response E! upgrade, so not worth bothering with. They also seem to be irrationally expensive on the used market.

TG77 is the rackmount equivalent, though you should consider a replacement display as a necessary purchase (similar to that used for a Kurzweil K2000).

https://chrisarndt.de/files/yamaha/SY%20Programming%20v0.40.pdf

[Razmo]

The most advanced around is still the Yamaha FS1R, hands down... but it's a nightmare to edit with it's small interface, so unless you use it with a computer editor, it will prove hard to program, but most FM synths are that, it's just that more complicated because it has literally thousands of parameters per Performance set.

One thing you might want to consider, is if the synth you want, has DX7 patch compatibility, because if you can/will not make your own (and it's complicated, if you do not know FM synthesis well), then you won't have many preset choices unless you have access to the huge DX7 library out there.

FS1R are the only one I know that can take DX7 presets.

[eXode]

FS1R are the only one I know that can take DX7 presets.

You can load DX7 presets into the Volca FM! Shame about the 3 voices because it comes with a chorus and pretty interesting sequencing features and ways to interact with the timbre.

Sadly it's about the same price as the Montage but there's the "MOD-7" in the Korg OASYS/Kronos. MOD-7 also reads DX7 sysex if I recall correctly.

I think the SY77 is a good tip since it offers both FM and AWM (ROMPLER) synthesis in the same box.

[LoboLives]

Some great suggestions but I was looking at a modern synth as opposed to just getting a vintage one. I don't have anything particularly against it but I just prefer a modern piece of equipment. I haven't programmed any FM hands on personally but I am reading John Chowning's book. I've programmed a lot with the Kurtzweil V.A.S.T. system which took some time but was well rewarding.

I don't personally like doing a lot of overdubs. I prefer just hitting record and just going for it in one shot. I may do one or two overdubs but mostly just fills.

Other than the Reface and the Montage is there no FM based synths on the market currently?

[chysn]

A DX7 would be a good choice. Not modern, not the best classic implementation (that's probably the TG77/SY77), but if you find a nice one it'll last forever.

But, if you must go modern, I would suggest checking into the TF7 app for iOS. If you don't have an iPad, you could get an iPad Mini and a MIDI interface for less than the cost of most synths. TF7 with all the options isn't very expensive, and is a very capable FM implementation.

[LoboLives]

A DX7 would be a good choice. Not modern, not the best classic implementation (that's probably the TG77/SY77), but if you find a nice one it'll last forever.

But, if you must go modern, I would suggest checking into the TF7 app for iOS. If you don't have an iPad, you could get an iPad Mini and a MIDI interface for less than the cost of most synths. TF7 with all the options isn't very expensive, and is a very capable FM implementation.

I'm trying to stay away from VSTs personally.

[LoboLives]

I may wait until NAMM...you never know what might come out. Maybe Yamaha will do a synth that is FMX only as opposed to having it be part of a larger system.

Anyone have any experience with the Blofield? Thoughts on it?

[eXode]

What about the Prophet 12 btw? Considering it has a lot of oscillators, added Linear FM support, and it can be split/layered. It also gives you digital waveforms on top of that. The module is quite reasonable priced imho, if you don't want/need another keyboard.

[LoboLives]

What about the Prophet 12 btw? Considering it has a lot of oscillators, added Linear FM support, and it can be split/layered. It also gives you digital waveforms on top of that. The module is quite reasonable priced imho, if you don't want/need another keyboard.

As crazy as it sounds...I wasn't impressed with the sound of the P12 and I think for that price point I'd sooner get the Montage. I would never pay that much for a module. That's just me though.

[jdt9517]

@LobusLives - There are few modern synths which use Chowning FM Synthesis, probably for good reason.  When the DX-7 came out, it took over the industry.  However, within five years or so, FM synthesis became not much more than a memory.  This is because FM programming is difficult to master, and so different than analog.  Also, there was no way to get any good training on FM in the day.  So, FM was pretty much abandoned.  Even today, there is very little on FM programming.  Chowning's and Massey's books came out around the the close of the FM digital era.  Most had moved on to wavetable/sampling synthesis by then.  It is a shame because FM can do so much amazing sound.

The only synth I know which is doing serious FM is the Montage.  I understand that the P-12 has upgraded its firmware to allow linear FM - which I do not know whether it is equivalent to Chowning's FM or not.  However, I do not have any experience I related to the P-12.  I did buy the P-12 module on Black Friday.  So, I can probably update you by Christmas.  The problem with the P-12 though is it only has 4 oscillators albeit them allowing more complex waveforms.  If you approach FM with sine waves like Chowning did, you will be down two oscillators from the DX-7.  So, I doubt the P-12 will be a true replacement for the DX.

Since you are going through the Chowning book, I would suggest that you get a first series DX-7 so you can do the exercises - even if you decide not to use it as you primary FM synth.  (MKII and Grey Matter not needed).  Those exercises are really important to understanding and ultimately mastering FM.   Massey's book also uses the DX for the exercises.  AFAIK, those are the only two books out that are practical training manuals for FM.   Once you get the basics of FM under your belt, you will be more equipped to decide what synth will fit your requirements. 

Personally, I still like my old DX.  It is capable of some really amazing sounds.  For FM, my upgrade will be to the Montage.  However, given the cost, it will probably be a little while before that happens.  This upgrade will have the added benefit of upgrading my Yamaha S90.  so, I will be looking at the Montage for more than FM.

[eXode]

As crazy as it sounds...I wasn't impressed with the sound of the P12 and I think for that price point I'd sooner get the Montage. I would never pay that much for a module. That's just me though.

Is this from trying it out in person? Considering how it on paper ticks several of your boxes. The Montage and Kronos are still completely digital while the Prophet 12 has a dual analog filter setup. Horses for courses though.

The only synth I know which is doing serious FM is the Montage.  I understand that the P-12 has upgraded its firmware to allow linear FM - which I do not know whether it is equivalent to Chowning's FM or not.  However, I do not have any experience I related to the P-12.  I did buy the P-12 module on Black Friday.  So, I can probably update you by Christmas.  The problem with the P-12 though is it only has 4 oscillators albeit them allowing more complex waveforms.  If you approach FM with sine waves like Chowning did, you will be down two oscillators from the DX-7.  So, I doubt the P-12 will be a true replacement for the DX.

There was a video by DSI with Smith and Chowning on the release of the linear FM update. They also claim in the manual that it's the same implementation as in the DX synths iirc.

I don't quite understand your comparison with the DX7. The DX7 use 6 sine wave operators - the Prophet 12 use 4 operators if you look at it from that perspective. Although the hardwired FM in Prophet 12 is cascaded (4->3->2->1->4), you can route them freely in the mod matrix afaik. You could probably replicate all the algorithms from the DX7's little brother - the DX100 via the Mod Matrix. On top of this, the Prophet 12 also allows stacking/layering so you could build two separate 4 OP patches and stack on each other

Finally. The Prophet 12 offers various waveforms that greatly expand the timbral possibilities, not to mention the analogue filters that can help shape the sound even more.

Of course you're free to mix and match and use one layer with 4 OP FM and the other with digital waves and analog filter approach - Not far from the aforementioned SY77 if you think about it.

[LoboLives]

As crazy as it sounds...I wasn't impressed with the sound of the P12 and I think for that price point I'd sooner get the Montage. I would never pay that much for a module. That's just me though.

Is this from trying it out in person? Considering how it on paper ticks several of your boxes. The Montage and Kronos are still completely digital while the Prophet 12 has a dual analog filter setup. Horses for courses though.

The only synth I know which is doing serious FM is the Montage.  I understand that the P-12 has upgraded its firmware to allow linear FM - which I do not know whether it is equivalent to Chowning's FM or not.  However, I do not have any experience I related to the P-12.  I did buy the P-12 module on Black Friday.  So, I can probably update you by Christmas.  The problem with the P-12 though is it only has 4 oscillators albeit them allowing more complex waveforms.  If you approach FM with sine waves like Chowning did, you will be down two oscillators from the DX-7.  So, I doubt the P-12 will be a true replacement for the DX.

There was a video by DSI with Smith and Chowning on the release of the linear FM update. They also claim in the manual that it's the same implementation as in the DX synths iirc.

I don't quite understand your comparison with the DX7. The DX7 use 6 sine wave operators - the Prophet 12 use 4 operators if you look at it from that perspective. Although the hardwired FM in Prophet 12 is cascaded (4->3->2->1->4), you can route them freely in the mod matrix afaik. You could probably replicate all the algorithms from the DX7's little brother - the DX100 via the Mod Matrix. On top of this, the Prophet 12 also allows stacking/layering so you could build two separate 4 OP patches and stack on each other

Finally. The Prophet 12 offers various waveforms that greatly expand the timbral possibilities, not to mention the analogue filters that can help shape the sound even more.

Of course you're free to mix and match and use one layer with 4 OP FM and the other with digital waves and analog filter approach - Not far from the aforementioned SY77 if you think about it.

When I was decided which Prophet to get I tested them all at Long And McQuade and did not enjoy the P12 at all. I went with the Prophet 6 as it best suited my needs and creative approach.

[LoboLives]

@LobusLives - There are few modern synths which use Chowning FM Synthesis, probably for good reason.  When the DX-7 came out, it took over the industry.  However, within five years or so, FM synthesis became not much more than a memory.  This is because FM programming is difficult to master, and so different than analog.  Also, there was no way to get any good training on FM in the day.  So, FM was pretty much abandoned.  Even today, there is very little on FM programming.  Chowning's and Massey's books came out around the the close of the FM digital era.  Most had moved on to wavetable/sampling synthesis by then.  It is a shame because FM can do so much amazing sound.

The only synth I know which is doing serious FM is the Montage.  I understand that the P-12 has upgraded its firmware to allow linear FM - which I do not know whether it is equivalent to Chowning's FM or not.  However, I do not have any experience I related to the P-12.  I did buy the P-12 module on Black Friday.  So, I can probably update you by Christmas.  The problem with the P-12 though is it only has 4 oscillators albeit them allowing more complex waveforms.  If you approach FM with sine waves like Chowning did, you will be down two oscillators from the DX-7.  So, I doubt the P-12 will be a true replacement for the DX.

Since you are going through the Chowning book, I would suggest that you get a first series DX-7 so you can do the exercises - even if you decide not to use it as you primary FM synth.  (MKII and Grey Matter not needed).  Those exercises are really important to understanding and ultimately mastering FM.   Massey's book also uses the DX for the exercises.  AFAIK, those are the only two books out that are practical training manuals for FM.   Once you get the basics of FM under your belt, you will be more equipped to decide what synth will fit your requirements. 

Personally, I still like my old DX.  It is capable of some really amazing sounds.  For FM, my upgrade will be to the Montage.  However, given the cost, it will probably be a little while before that happens.  This upgrade will have the added benefit of upgrading my Yamaha S90.  so, I will be looking at the Montage for more than FM.

This is why I'm curious if Yamaha would release an synth that's dedicated to FMX as opposed to just having it as part of a larger workstation. A Yamaha DX2000 perhaps?

Actually it would be interesting to see Dave collaborate with John Chowning to develop a pure FM based synth or perhaps...Cameron Jones?

[jdt9517]

@eXode-  I don't have any hands on experience with the P-12, and AFAIK what you are saying about the P-12 is true.

The stacking will be able to approximate a DX-100.  However, even with the splitting of the P-12, you cannot obtain a stack of 6 per voice.  There are workarounds such as using a square or saw tooth wave in place of two sine waves.  What I found though is two sines do not truly replicate a square or saw.  There are differences that when looked at in isolation do not amount to much, but in course of a larger program are meaningful.  Minor differences in sidebands at one level can create significant differences in the sidebands of another. 

No doubt, the P-12 has much more sound design capabilities.  That's one of the reasons why I just bought the module.    But if you are learning programming of pure FM, you must look away from relying on filters, etc.   It's just part of the discipline.  Once the discipline is learned, then the other sound design tools can be used with the FM with marvelous results.    By learning FM, you are taking on a difficult task, but you will be glad you did it when you emerge on the other side!

[jdt9517]

This is why I'm curious if Yamaha would release an synth that's dedicated to FMX as opposed to just having it as part of a larger workstation. A Yamaha DX2000 perhaps?

Actually it would be interesting to see Dave collaborate with John Chowning to develop a pure FM based synth or perhaps...Cameron Jones?

i would really like it too.  Hopefully, that day will come!

[eXode]

When I was decided which Prophet to get I tested them all at Long And McQuade and did not enjoy the P12 at all. I went with the Prophet 6 as it best suited my needs and creative approach.

Ok, still makes me wonder if you approached it in the same vein as the Prophet 6 or if you tried it for the needs you are describing now - esp with regards to the linear FM. The two prophets are not very similar except for in name. Horses for courses.

Moving on. The Waldorf Blofeld is not FM any more than you can FM between the three wavetable oscillators, but it's quite far from DX style FM - if that's what you're looking for, the Blofeld isn't it.

The simple sad truth is that the options for new FM synths are quite slim. The Reface DX has been mentioned already, then the tiny Korg Volca FM with only three voices, and then there's the expensive Yamaha Montage or the Krog Kronos, or Oasys left afaik. If neither of those are an option then I'm afraid the used market will be your best bet.

You just mentioned the DX200. That might be a good instrument to look for, it is also patch compatible with the DX7.

[Jan Schultink]

After the early analogue synths, the DX7 might become the next collector item for nostalgic people born around 1969. Not because of the great user experience of FM programming on small screens, but because of sentimental value. "Why did I dump it back in 1992?"

[LoboLives]

When I was decided which Prophet to get I tested them all at Long And McQuade and did not enjoy the P12 at all. I went with the Prophet 6 as it best suited my needs and creative approach.

Ok, still makes me wonder if you approached it in the same vein as the Prophet 6 or if you tried it for the needs you are describing now - esp with regards to the linear FM. The two prophets are not very similar except for in name. Horses for courses.

Moving on. The Waldorf Blofeld is not FM any more than you can FM between the three wavetable oscillators, but it's quite far from DX style FM - if that's what you're looking for, the Blofeld isn't it.

The simple sad truth is that the options for new FM synths are quite slim. The Reface DX has been mentioned already, then the tiny Korg Volca FM with only three voices, and then there's the expensive Yamaha Montage or the Krog Kronos, or Oasys left afaik. If neither of those are an option then I'm afraid the used market will be your best bet.

You just mentioned the DX200. That might be a good instrument to look for, it is also patch compatible with the DX7.

I just approached the P12, P08 and P6 in terms of creating a patch from scratch...I actually preferred not having a menu while doing it...analog synth wise anyway. While I do appreciate the P12 and P08 I just wasn't impressed with the sound. The P12 came off two sharp to my ears (which I know can be dialed back in programming) and the 08 I found to be a bit too much menu diving...which like I said I don't mind in terms of digital patch creating (I've done Kurzweil's V.A.S.T.) but for analog I'd rather just keep it hands on and on the front panel.


Actually I mentioned the DX2000...I made it up saying that Yamaha should bring a new DX out with FMX only. ....catchy name huh?

I think I'll just wait it out for now like I said.