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Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?

Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?
« on: October 25, 2016, 09:38:13 PM »
Hello,

I'm anxiously awaiting my first Pro 2. I paid for it yesterday and now I have to wait for it to arrive. It's hard being patient.

While waiting I had a question about how the oscillators cycle when in paraphonic mode. If my understanding is correct, the oscillators cycle 1-4 as triggered, so playing a note five times would trigger all four oscillators in order, before eventually landing back on oscillator 1. Is there any mode that would also allow the cycle to always restart, so if one note was played it would always be oscillator 1? Adding each subsequent oscillator with the addition of notes. This would make it so note 1 was always oscillator 1, note 2 was always oscillator 2, and so on.

This seems like it would be so useful since every oscillator can have its own unique wave form and tuning. Playing paraphonically would be like having a split sound without the limitation of a split point. Pair this up with the ability to route oscillators to either filter and it'd be just such an incredibly powerful mode.

So, is this already possible and I just haven't found it in any of the documentation or threads on the forums?

When I daydream about this, I also imagine the ability to assign the output of each filter to its own output. If the amp articulation per note is digital (in paraphonic mode), it would be amazing if it were possible to bypass the single analog amplifier section in this mode and assign filter 1 to the left and filter 2 to the right. At that point it would be more like having two paraphonic mono synths with their own dedicated output.

Have I already started dreaming too big? 😀

Re: Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2016, 02:45:08 AM »
Hi Elliot, welcome to the forum and congratulations on ordering a Pro 2!

If my understanding is correct, the oscillators cycle 1-4 as triggered, so playing a note five times would trigger all four oscillators in order, before eventually landing back on oscillator 1.

This is correct.

Is there any mode that would also allow the cycle to always restart, so if one note was played it would always be oscillator 1? Adding each subsequent oscillator with the addition of notes. This would make it so note 1 was always oscillator 1, note 2 was always oscillator 2, and so on.

No, there is no such option.

When I daydream about this, I also imagine the ability to assign the output of each filter to its own output. If the amp articulation per note is digital (in paraphonic mode), it would be amazing if it were possible to bypass the single analog amplifier section in this mode and assign filter 1 to the left and filter 2 to the right. At that point it would be more like having two paraphonic mono synths with their own dedicated output.

That's not possible due to hardware restrictions. You would technically need two of each type of the filters in order to do that: one for the left side, one for the right. In other words, it would require a true stereo signal path where everything is hardwired to either the right or the left output.

Re: Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2016, 08:25:32 AM »
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've enjoyed your Pro 2 YouTube videos as I wait for my own to arrive.

I'm sure there may be hardware limitations that would block what I'm hoping for, but I'm not sure two of each filter would be required. Since the output of both filters ends up being heard on both left and right outputs of the Pro 2, it could be possible to have them routed to their own output with a balance control to determine how much of the mono output from either filter would be applied to the left or right outputs. Of course this would be dependent on the hardware allowing for this kind of routing.

The hardware limitation could also be that both filters must go through a single mono amplifier circuit, which would sum them to mono and not allow the balance control I'm describing. Or it could be a limitation of routing possibilities as I described earlier.

If I could determine the source of Delay 1 was Filter 1 and the source of Delay 2 was Filter 2, I could set minimum delay times, maximum mix level, and hard pan each delay. I'm assuming that the delays are all in series, with the input at the end of a summed to mono chain.

Is there a block diagram of the signal flow for the Pro 2 anywhere?

Re: Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2016, 03:24:06 PM »
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've enjoyed your Pro 2 YouTube videos as I wait for my own to arrive.

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed them.

I'm sure there may be hardware limitations that would block what I'm hoping for, but I'm not sure two of each filter would be required. Since the output of both filters ends up being heard on both left and right outputs of the Pro 2, it could be possible to have them routed to their own output with a balance control to determine how much of the mono output from either filter would be applied to the left or right outputs. Of course this would be dependent on the hardware allowing for this kind of routing.

The problem is that each one of the filters doesn't have its own controllable output balance. They affect the signal of both stereo channels to the same degree. And I'm sure that the hardware wouldn't simply allow for an added "filter pan" mod destination.

The hardware limitation could also be that both filters must go through a single mono amplifier circuit, which would sum them to mono and not allow the balance control I'm describing. Or it could be a limitation of routing possibilities as I described earlier.

Well, the filters are mono too, even though the Pro 2 has stereo outputs. True stereo filters would mean to have two of each filter: one hard-wired to the left, the other one to the right. The Evolver does that.

If I could determine the source of Delay 1 was Filter 1 and the source of Delay 2 was Filter 2, I could set minimum delay times, maximum mix level, and hard pan each delay. I'm assuming that the delays are all in series, with the input at the end of a summed to mono chain.

I think you're confusing audio path and mod slot here, or maybe I misunderstood. But the filters can't be selected as a mod source, only their envelopes.

Is there a block diagram of the signal flow for the Pro 2 anywhere?

No, but I attached the one from the Prophet 12 from the according manual. Not the same, but there are of course a few parallels.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 03:30:31 PM by Paul Dither »

Re: Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2016, 09:45:00 PM »
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the Prophet 12 diagram. I really would love to see one for the Pro 2. Although if it were similar to the P12 diagram it might not shed as much light on the topic as I would like. For example, the VCA block represents an entire section but does not show the connection details for all 12 voices. It's a nice bird's eye view of the functional blocks and general flow - I just wish there was something that showed a little more detail. Thanks again, for sharing it.

I'm sure there may be hardware limitations that would block what I'm hoping for, but I'm not sure two of each filter would be required. Since the output of both filters ends up being heard on both left and right outputs of the Pro 2, it could be possible to have them routed to their own output with a balance control to determine how much of the mono output from either filter would be applied to the left or right outputs. Of course this would be dependent on the hardware allowing for this kind of routing.

The problem is that each one of the filters doesn't have its own controllable output balance. They affect the signal of both stereo channels to the same degree. And I'm sure that the hardware wouldn't simply allow for an added "filter pan" mod destination.

The hardware limitation could also be that both filters must go through a single mono amplifier circuit, which would sum them to mono and not allow the balance control I'm describing. Or it could be a limitation of routing possibilities as I described earlier.

Well, the filters are mono too, even though the Pro 2 has stereo outputs. True stereo filters would mean to have two of each filter: one hard-wired to the left, the other one to the right. The Evolver does that.
Yes, it's true that two filters of each type would be required in order to process a stereo audio source, but this is not what I am describing. What I'm describing would be like taking a mono channel of audio in a DAW (let's say, an oscillator) into a mono plugin (let's say, a filter) and then rotate the pan knob which takes the post-filter audio and balances between the left and right outputs. Of course, the routing may not be available in the Pro 2...or maybe it is. I kind of doubt that it is (mainly because I think both filters are likely routed to a single VCA) but hope for the possibility.

And of course, one could accomplish what I'm describing with two discreet filters as you've imagined, but this is a more expensive solution for what I've described and definitely not supported by the current architecture...otherwise there would be four filters, allowing for articulated filter envelopes per note.
If I could determine the source of Delay 1 was Filter 1 and the source of Delay 2 was Filter 2, I could set minimum delay times, maximum mix level, and hard pan each delay. I'm assuming that the delays are all in series, with the input at the end of a summed to mono chain.

I think you're confusing audio path and mod slot here, or maybe I misunderstood. But the filters can't be selected as a mod source, only their envelopes.
Actually I'm still only referring to signal path here. When I say source I mean the audio source for the delays. Imagine there are four auxiliary busses in your DAW, each with their own delay plugin. My hope was that it would be possible to send each oscillator to their own delay, similar to taking four discreet tracks and using a send level to route the audio to each delay. I can see how it would be easy for us to have some misunderstanding considering the usage of terms and their many meanings in the world of synthesis/audio.

All of that dreaming aside, I'd still really like the option to have the oscillators reset when notes aren't held. It would make it possible to make the first two notes I play the bass voice, with its own oscillator wave shapes and filter (via the routing already available) while the second two notes could be a lead or chordal voice with their own oscillator wave shapes and filter. Or a single waveform for oscillator 1 which I would always play first while the remaining 3 oscillators could have another wave form for tritones. I think it would be a really useful paraphonic mode and could simply be a second paraphonic option under the note priority menu.

Has there been any discussions about this kind of functionality before? Is there a best way to submit feature suggestions to DSI?

Thanks again, Paul

Re: Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2016, 02:38:39 AM »
Yes, it's true that two filters of each type would be required in order to process a stereo audio source, but this is not what I am describing. What I'm describing would be like taking a mono channel of audio in a DAW (let's say, an oscillator) into a mono plugin (let's say, a filter) and then rotate the pan knob which takes the post-filter audio and balances between the left and right outputs. Of course, the routing may not be available in the Pro 2...or maybe it is. I kind of doubt that it is (mainly because I think both filters are likely routed to a single VCA) but hope for the possibility.

Gotcha. So that would basically require a parameter for filter panning or filter output panning. Not sure whether that's possible for the reasons you've already mentioned.

Actually I'm still only referring to signal path here. When I say source I mean the audio source for the delays. Imagine there are four auxiliary busses in your DAW, each with their own delay plugin. My hope was that it would be possible to send each oscillator to their own delay, similar to taking four discreet tracks and using a send level to route the audio to each delay. I can see how it would be easy for us to have some misunderstanding considering the usage of terms and their many meanings in the world of synthesis/audio.

It's definitely not possible to send each oscillator to its own delay, since the Pro 2 is still a mono synth. Under the current circumstances what you have in mind would mean to assign 1/4 of the voice to one of the four delays, which are all shared by a single voice. One conventional solution for that would be quadruple multitimbrality, but that would require a 4-voice and not a mono synth with paraphonic capabilities.

All of that dreaming aside, I'd still really like the option to have the oscillators reset when notes aren't held. It would make it possible to make the first two notes I play the bass voice, with its own oscillator wave shapes and filter (via the routing already available) while the second two notes could be a lead or chordal voice with their own oscillator wave shapes and filter. Or a single waveform for oscillator 1 which I would always play first while the remaining 3 oscillators could have another wave form for tritones. I think it would be a really useful paraphonic mode and could simply be a second paraphonic option under the note priority menu.

Again, I think this is rather something one could only achieve with multitimbrality. I don't think there is any way to make 1/4 of a single voice behave like one voice on a 4-voice synth.

Has there been any discussions about this kind of functionality before? Is there a best way to submit feature suggestions to DSI?

I can't remember these specific aspects being discussed, but you can always send a message to support@davesmithinstruments.com

Re: Paraphonic Oscillator Cycle?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 04:00:37 PM »
Hi Elliot, welcome to the forum and congratulations on ordering a Pro 2!

If my understanding is correct, the oscillators cycle 1-4 as triggered, so playing a note five times would trigger all four oscillators in order, before eventually landing back on oscillator 1.

This is correct.

Is there any mode that would also allow the cycle to always restart, so if one note was played it would always be oscillator 1? Adding each subsequent oscillator with the addition of notes. This would make it so note 1 was always oscillator 1, note 2 was always oscillator 2, and so on.

No, there is no such option.

Hi,

I see that with OS 1.3.4, a related feature was added:

Feature: Mono record to tracks 2-4 in Paraphonic Record mode

Does this affect the cycling behavior in any way? I have patches designed around oscillator split and cycling, and would hate to lose them. Thanks.