What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2016, 01:51:28 AM »
There's one element that hasn't been appreciated enough in our discussions, and Jdt9517 just hinted at it: the unique sonic character of the Prophet '08.  I think the P'08 has somewhat suffered from its beginning as being merely the portion that was extracted from the Poly Evolver.  From the start, it was conceived as only the analog portion of the PEK, and not as a unique instrument in its own right with its own voice.  This image has stuck to it.  Regardless, the P'08 is often viewed as a compromised instrument or one that falls short of all sorts of marks.  It falls short of the Prophet 5 mark, the Prophet 600 mark, the Poly Evolver mark, and now even the Prophet-6 mark.  It falls short also of the analog mark, because its oscillators are digitally controlled and therefore sound thin!  Honestly, I can't think of another synthesizer about which I've read more online criticism.  If you want to attract some, simply post a compliment about it under some one's P'08 video, and the critics will come out of the woodwork soon enough.  It baffles my mind.

That's not quite accurate though, or only if you focus on the negative comments that tend to be louder most of the times, which makes them stand out more I guess. But I happened to come across a lot of positive comments about the Prophet '08 as well. After all, it's also still selling or otherwise it would have been retired a while ago already. You'll hardly find any retailer site with negative reviews about it (it's an 4.5 to 5 out of 5 stars product almost anywhere you look), same goes for the trade press. Last year, the German online magazine Amazona.de even did a comparison between the Prophet-6, the Prophet '08, and the Prophet-5 (with the latter being excluded from the competition for obvious reasons), which more or less ended up in favor of the Prophet '08, especially with regard to its price and features.

Other than that, you'll find lovers and haters for almost every synth. The Prophet '08 doesn't really stand out or carries a heavier burdon in that regard. I've read and heard lots of negative comments about the Prophet-6 and OB-6 as well. Such as: "the Prophet-6 sucks because it's no Prophet-5 Rev. 2, its keyboard is too short, it doesn't sound any better than software, it doesn't provide enough CV connectivity, it lacks modulation options, and doesn't have enough voices," or: "the OB-6 sucks because even Arturia's iSEM sounds more like a real Oberheim, you can't layer or split voices, I hate blue stripes, it is at least $1,500 too expensive, and nobody cares about it in a mix anyway, etc."

The reason why almost any comment about the Prophet '08 seems to have stood out a little more - especially in its first years -, is the fact that it used to be the only analog poly synth choice that was available brand new. Once the Andromeda was gone, there was nothing. Then came the Prophet '08 without any further competition for years. So that automatically increases the focus towards one particular product, and that includes positive and negative comments. Even Moog went through something similar with the Voyager before you could choose between 3-5 newly introduced analog mono synths each year.

I certainly don't regard the Prophet '08 as an "insiders' tip" - it's much too well known and used for that. And as for its prospective follow-up: For now it's still around, so no one really has to worry. If a synth like the DeepMind 12 will be a thread has yet to be seen. If yes - for all the right and wrong reasons -, DSI will draw their conclusions. But then, DSI also always used to surprise us. So maybe the next release, or one of the upcoming releases, will make these concerns irrelevant anyway. One thing's for sure though: Nothing will hinder anyone to just enjoy his or her Prophet '08.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 01:53:03 AM by Paul Dither »

eXode

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Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2016, 06:12:29 AM »
A bigger potential threat imho is if Korg does a bigger brother to the Minilogue.

Perhaps a lot of classic examples that some people don't like but I still think it shows off the potential (the guy can play)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5fS75_ZRKA

Another demo of individual sounds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi3FKousIPM
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 06:47:14 AM by eXode »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2016, 06:55:38 AM »
A bigger potential threat imho is if Korg does a bigger brother to the Minilogue.

That depends on how much Korg would be willing to expand Tatsuya Takahashi's playground.

PS: Great sound examples, btw. Not all to my taste, but it certainly shows the potential that could be unfolded by a bigger model.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 06:57:35 AM by Paul Dither »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2016, 06:57:08 AM »
Interesting tread, so let me join :)

As a happy OB6/P6 owner I'm curious as well what DSI will offer next. IMO the Deepmind 12 will have an impact on the scene in general, but not on plans from DSI. What I heard so far from the Deepmind sounds more modern, in a way virtual analogue and fx loaded then any of the DSI Synths. DSI synths always had this classic vintage vibe (except for the P12), which I didn't heard yet on any Deepmind Demos. So I think they don't have a lot of common ground. The Deepmind has of course the analogue tag all over, as that's what ppl want. But to me it sounds very VST like. Those demos I heard from Deepmind (and I liked them actually) where drowning in effects. (Check the Ben Crosland and the new Sonic State videos). Well, I have to wait to play that on my own...always tricky to judge after Youtube only. But for now I see the Deepmind as a competitor for Roland only.

But now, what could DSI do next? I think, they should stick to their premium tag and not follow the trend of doing cheaper synths. On the contrary I think they should build now a even bigger masterpiece. Yes, maybe it will cost 4-5k, but ppl will buy. I imagine something like the Roland JD-XA. A mix between Prophet 12 and Prophet 6. 6 Digital Osc with Wavetables and 6 VCO's. Throw in the two analogue Filters, modulations and CV Connections from Pro2...bam! :) So you have really a huge hybrid.

like this, DSI would do the opposite from what the Behringers, Korgs and Rolands are doing.

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2016, 07:30:17 AM »
If I could have my Prophet '08 wish list it would be

Add a high pass filter
Add four additional voices so I can split/layer 6+6. That's kind of the sweet spot.
Add more pitch resolution
Use a faster processor for faster modulation
Have finer modulation in general
Add feedback and sub oscillator from the Mopho series
Add more modulation slots

Others have asked for longer envelopes and extended slop. That would be great too.

The trouble with such a synth is that you'd have to do an entire new development cycle with a new MCU but you get relatively few features for the time you put into it. It would also be quite a bit more expensive than the P '08. Anyway, loving the P '08 just as it is.

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2016, 07:57:55 AM »
The trouble with such a synth is that you'd have to do an entire new development cycle with a new MCU but you get relatively few features for the time you put into it. It would also be quite a bit more expensive than the P '08. Anyway, loving the P '08 just as it is.

I don't think that this would be that big of a deal, to be honest - that said, many smaller manufacturers look at new product development as rolling R&D expenditure (and cost it that way from an accounting perspective).

Chances are, there's not going to be a radical shift in development platforms (PIC micros, Analog Devices SHARCs, the odd FPGA here and there are all fairly stable from a sourcing perspective), and like most good embedded shops, there is typically a fair bit of code reuse where possible.
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

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Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2016, 08:11:34 AM »
Somehow it seems unlikely at the same time that Korg will do something more premium than the Minilogue. At least not something with full keys. :D

I wonder if Moog will do a Poly. I've heard such rumors in the past from fairly reliable sources but it remains to be seen. I guess a lot of that speculation came from Mike Adams visit at Dave Smith Instruments last year.

The design that Dave did for the Prophet 6 seem excellent as a base for a polyphonic Moog imho. Imagine similarly to the OB-6, a polyphonic synth with Moog voice cards based on i.e. the Sub Phatty voice or something along those lines.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 08:58:26 AM by eXode »

Sacred Synthesis

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2016, 08:57:07 AM »
There's one element that hasn't been appreciated enough in our discussions, and Jdt9517 just hinted at it: the unique sonic character of the Prophet '08.  I think the P'08 has somewhat suffered from its beginning as being merely the portion that was extracted from the Poly Evolver.  From the start, it was conceived as only the analog portion of the PEK, and not as a unique instrument in its own right with its own voice.  This image has stuck to it.  Regardless, the P'08 is often viewed as a compromised instrument or one that falls short of all sorts of marks.  It falls short of the Prophet 5 mark, the Prophet 600 mark, the Poly Evolver mark, and now even the Prophet-6 mark.  It falls short also of the analog mark, because its oscillators are digitally controlled and therefore sound thin!  Honestly, I can't think of another synthesizer about which I've read more online criticism.  If you want to attract some, simply post a compliment about it under some one's P'08 video, and the critics will come out of the woodwork soon enough.  It baffles my mind.

That's not quite accurate though, or only if you focus on the negative comments that tend to be louder most of the times, which makes them stand out more I guess.

I stand by my words. 

Of course I'm not implying that other synthesizers - that all synthesizers - do not receive their share of criticism.  Nor am I denying that many have highly praised the Prophet '08.  But I am saying that the Prophet '08 has received a remarkable amount of criticism, and so much of it is based on comparisons.  So, too, did the Voyager versus the Model D, and the Prophet '08 situation has been similar.  But the Prophet '08 had an odd sort of origin, in that it was extracted from another instrument.  That led to a rough start in itself, in that it appeared as a bit more than half of another synthesizer.  But it also had to carry the weight of being the first modern Prophet synthesizer coming from the hands of the Prophet synthesizer-maker, Dave Smith.  That made its circumstances unique, and it has resulted in a stubborn tendency among synthesists towards judgment by comparison that has unusually failed to judge the instrument as a unique and brilliant synthesizer in its own right.  Yes, it happens all the time, but my point is that the P'08 has had an unusually large share of it, due to its unique circumstances.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 10:01:36 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2016, 10:04:59 AM »
Of course I'm not implying that other synthesizers - that all synthesizers - do not receive their share of criticism.  Nor am I denying that many have highly praised the Prophet '08.  I'm quite familiar with both sides of the issue.  But I am saying that the Prophet '08 has received a remarkable amount of criticism, and so much of it is based on comparisons.  So, too, did the Voyager versus the Model D, and the Prophet '08 situation has been similar.  But the Prophet '08 had an odd sort of origin, in that it was extracted from another instrument.  That led to a rough start in itself, but the instrument also had to carry the weight of being the first modern Prophet synthesizer coming from the hands of the Prophet synthesizer-maker, Dave Smith.  That made its circumstances unique, and it has resulted in a stubborn tendency among synthesists towards judgment by comparison that has unusually failed to judge the instrument as a unique and brilliant synthesizer in its own right.  Yes, it happens all the time, but my point is that the P'08 has had an unusually large share of it.

But the Voyager is actually a good example. It was not meant to be a Minimoog, a title that was only added for marketing purposes later, which provoked constant comparisons with the classic. Funnily, now the re-issue is out, some folks keep both and take the Voyager for what it is: a completely different synth with its own voice.

The perception of marketing - and giving a synth a name is already marketing - plays a huge role inasmuch as it creates expectations, especially if a product is released whose name is based on products that used to carry the same name. With the Prophet name things have always been a bit inconsistent of course, since it never indicated any specific type of engine and has been used for very different instruments: analog polys, samplers, and hybrids. But maybe the perception of the Prophet '08 would have been a tad different if it didn't carry that tag.

The rest has of course to do with the fact that "DCO" became a dirty word. And indeed - as one can see in a video I posted somewhere else on here - it's really a matter of engineering how much the analog element is actually a significant part of a DCO. Some are indeed more digital than others depending on how the clock control has been facilitated. Whether one cares about these differences at all is a matter of taste and personal goals. If you want rather precise oscillators, the Prophet '08 is fine. If you want the analog drift and thickness typically associated with VCOs then it probably won't do - unless you add quite a bit of extra programming, since the slop won't get you there. But not a lot of people like a lot of extra programming, not only because preset users are still in the majority, but also because people prefer instant gratification, preferably in the shape and form of a single untreated sawtooth wave blowing your socks off already, which is the reason the Minimoog is still liked by so many.

What I'm saying is that the Prophet '08's strength - its flexibility based on a rather neutral tone and sound if you don't do anything - can also be preceived as a weakness, depending on the patience and expectations of the customers. And the fact that the Prophet '08 was alone on the market for most of its time just put additional weight on that.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 10:08:44 AM by Paul Dither »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2016, 10:17:20 AM »
Somehow it seems unlikely at the same time that Korg will do something more premium than the Minilogue. At least not something with full keys. :D

I wonder if Moog will do a Poly. I've heard such rumors in the past from fairly reliable sources but it remains to be seen. I guess a lot of that speculation came from Mike Adams visit at Dave Smith Instruments last year.

The design that Dave did for the Prophet 6 seem excellent as a base for a polyphonic Moog imho. Imagine similarly to the OB-6, a polyphonic synth with Moog voice cards based on i.e. the Sub Phatty voice or something along those lines.

Yes - everything lines up about this from a technical perspective, though I'm not sure as to how that would work out from a chain-of-custody perspective.

Moog has both in-house analog design + manufacturing capabilities, but far less digital electronics expertise than DSI (and far more invested in the Moog brand legacy); Marion Systems, on the other hand, uses contract manufacturing, so a licensing / technology-sharing deal with DSI would seem (on the surface, anyway) to have been an easier exercise for Tom Oberheim.

Everything else about the Prophet-6/OB-6 platform would make it an obvious choice for a made-in-USA Moog-(co-)branded polysynth, except for the lack of external analogue patchability–perhaps THAT is what we'll see in January (i.e., an updated or extended platform with Pro-2 style patch points)...or twelve-voice versions.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 10:19:04 AM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2016, 10:25:13 AM »
Moog has both in-house analog design + manufacturing capabilities, but far less digital electronics expertise than DSI.

That's actually not true. Amos Gaynes is mainly responsible for developing firmware, editors, and plug-ins. And let's not forget that they hired Geert Bevin to help developing the Model 15 app, which is not Moog's first app. In terms of MIDI and control the Model 15 app is pretty much state of the art.

eXode

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Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2016, 10:37:31 AM »
Also, the Taurus III, the Minitaur, the Sub Phatty, and the Sub 37 all have digital envelopes and LFO(s), which is why Amos could add features such as the looping envelopes etc to the firmware of the Sub Phatty. So Moog does have some knowledge about digital control at any rate. :)

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2016, 04:24:02 AM »
Moinmoin,

I see the P'08 in a tradition: As on the P5 - the first synthesizer with a useable memory function - every single parameter is instantly controlled by a "dedicated knob". When the P'08 came out, it was - at least to my knowledge - the only synth with this feature. This is what I looked for and this is why I still love it.
Even if You concider me as being strange, the sound itself just comes on top. I read John Medeskis answer to a question about the difference between a real Hammond and good clones. He said that today's clones are so good, that even skilled listeners to a CD probably will not realize the difference any more. The musician playing it, however, surely does and thus will be influenced in his playing.
For me, this property of an instrument is far more important than e.g. the sound of the pure sawtooth, that is seldom used at least by me.

Whatever DSI will bring next: I hope they will not follow those people who "prefer instant gratification". Even if they are a majority, as Paul Dither assumed with good reason, a comparably small and specialized company will probably not feed the mainstream successfully and sustainably, so this may not be good for DSI.
My personal wish is, that they will stick to their "decent knobs"-philosopy, as I like to spend time and engage myself with my instruments and tools. Whether pure analog or a little bit more digital: It should be something with as much flexibility of modules a live-useable instrument allows, wherever this compromise will exactly be. The sound in practice then will be my responsibility...

Martin

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2016, 05:59:23 AM »
Also, the Taurus III, the Minitaur, the Sub Phatty, and the Sub 37 all have digital envelopes and LFO(s), which is why Amos could add features such as the looping envelopes etc to the firmware of the Sub Phatty. So Moog does have some knowledge about digital control at any rate. :)
Fair enough. And I would certainly agree that their collective, high-level application software expertise certainly exceeds that of DSI in its current incarnation, to be fair - the Moog editors, as well as the iOS apps, are in fact quite good.
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2016, 06:58:51 AM »
Moinmoin,

I see the P'08 in a tradition: As on the P5 - the first synthesizer with a useable memory function - every single parameter is instantly controlled by a "dedicated knob". When the P'08 came out, it was - at least to my knowledge - the only synth with this feature. This is what I looked for and this is why I still love it.
Even if You concider me as being strange, the sound itself just comes on top. I read John Medeskis answer to a question about the difference between a real Hammond and good clones. He said that today's clones are so good, that even skilled listeners to a CD probably will not realize the difference any more. The musician playing it, however, surely does and thus will be influenced in his playing.
For me, this property of an instrument is far more important than e.g. the sound of the pure sawtooth, that is seldom used at least by me.

Whatever DSI will bring next: I hope they will not follow those people who "prefer instant gratification". Even if they are a majority, as Paul Dither assumed with good reason, a comparably small and specialized company will probably not feed the mainstream successfully and sustainably, so this may not be good for DSI.
My personal wish is, that they will stick to their "decent knobs"-philosopy, as I like to spend time and engage myself with my instruments and tools. Whether pure analog or a little bit more digital: It should be something with as much flexibility of modules a live-useable instrument allows, wherever this compromise will exactly be. The sound in practice then will be my responsibility...

Martin

I absolutely agree, Martin. My previous comments didn't articulate my personal preferences, just observations and conclusions from all around.

And with regard to the DeepMind 12: I personally don't like Behringer for reasons of business ethics and find the obtruding way in which Uli Berhinger himself tries to snow his prospective disciples rather awkward, which rather makes me feel ashamed for him. And the synth itself looks to me like a Woolworth or a Walmart keyboard.

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2016, 08:02:17 AM »
And with regard to the DeepMind 12: I personally don't like Behringer for reasons of business ethics and find the obtruding way in which Uli Berhinger himself tries to snow his prospective disciples rather awkward, which rather makes me feel ashamed for him. And the synth itself looks to me like a Woolworth or a Walmart keyboard.

Separating the product from the producer, I do believe that they missed a trick as far as the graphic design goes (such ugly fonts!), though that could easily be rectified with a Synthgraphics Lexan overlay. (I actually believe that the Juno look is a bit cheesy anyway.)

As far as the producer goes–time has weathered the perception that Behringer, and the Music Group companies in general, are copycat artists–I, for one, commend their stand against Bain Capital & Guitar Center with regard to the latter's supplier mistreatment, which had the net effect of emboldening many smaller companies to enforce invoice payment and distressed item terms without fear of reprisals. And I surely believe that the typical professional is smart enough to understand the difference between utility-grade and specialist gear–a quality perception that Behringer itself (and Uli, by association) will never be able to escape.

So - back on point - where does this leave a product such as the Prophet '08?

One of the key things with DCOs has been the consistent performance (both live and in the studio) of an individual instrument over its lifespan, regardless of manufacturer. If you replace the DCO frequency clock + waveshaper elements with a DSP, you've eliminated a whole layer of additional circuitry that, in the age of 24-bit DACs, is largely superfluous (with a bit of clever design thrown in for good measure).

Arguably, the same might be said for analogue filters, provided that a DSP-based equivalent can sound as good–so I'd guess with a reasonable certainty that the '08's replacement will certainly have more of this, without sterilizing the final result.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 08:16:01 AM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Sacred Synthesis

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2016, 08:23:05 AM »
For me, this property of an instrument is far more important than e.g. the sound of the pure sawtooth, that is seldom used at least by me.

An excellent post in general, MartinM.  As for the above comment, I do use pure single sawtooths, as well as other pure single wavesforms.  And before I'll buy a synthesizer, I must know that its pure single unadorned unaffected voice is satisfactorily musical.  Hence, I'm suspicious of instruments that lack fundamentals but have an abundance of onboard effects.  To me, its dessert without the meat and potatoes.  I'm sold on simple patches, not those that have everything piled on.  I want to hear one oscillator of a sawtooth, and then a narrow pulse, and then a square with a delayed vibrato and a touch of reverb - and nothing else.  That's how I begin to assess a synthesizer.  For me, the Prophet '08 easily and happily passes this test, even a bit better than does the Poly Evolver. 

If I were to list the reasons I prefer DSI to other synth companies, I would place this at the top: simplicity and directness of design together with an architecture that is strong and complete in the fundamentals of synthesis.  And I'm more than willing to give my hard earned money for such instruments.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 08:39:44 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2016, 08:37:05 AM »
The perception of marketing - and giving a synth a name is already marketing - plays a huge role inasmuch as it creates expectations, especially if a product is released whose name is based on products that used to carry the same name. With the Prophet name things have always been a bit inconsistent of course, since it never indicated any specific type of engine and has been used for very different instruments: analog polys, samplers, and hybrids. But maybe the perception of the Prophet '08 would have been a tad different if it didn't carry that tag.

That perception also carried across to the OB6. It hinted at being a real OB but came with a short key bed and only 6 voices :-)

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Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2016, 11:35:24 PM »
I don't care too much about built in FX. There are lots of great hardware and software effects. If the choice is between FX or one or two more LFO's, the choice is simple. Modulation wins every time.

Like I've stated before, I think a VCO / SSM based Prophet-8 with layer and split, x-mod/poly-mod, and perhaps the SEM low pass filter thrown in for 2-pole mode (or 2 pole designed from the SSM circuit) with same amount of LFO's, and 61 key bed as it's predecessor would be a great thing. I also think it would fit nicely within their current product line, in my opinion. :)

Re: What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2016, 06:38:51 AM »
Moinmoin,

Sacred Synthesis'
Quote
simplicity and directness of design
is the reason I prefer analog vs. digital equipment. I like to have an instant reaction on my action. I have yet to see fully digital equipment doing exactly that with every parameter and without having to access menus.
Currently my band is in the process of pre-production, and we use logic's virtual instruments a lot. The sound as final result may be even Ok, but the way and work necessary to achieve it just drives me mad.
And how shall this make me inspired or set me in another mood than anger.


Martin (full of anticipation regarding our next live gig ... :))