What Will Follow the Prophet '08, and When?

[Sacred Synthesis]

Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.

"That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming."


Really?  I missed that comment.  What exactly was said - just that DSI would not produce an all-digital instrument?

[Paul Dither]

Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.

"That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming."


Really?  I missed that comment.  What exactly was said - just that DSI would not produce an all-digital instrument?

Over here: http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,536.0.html

Quote: "Nothing like that is on the horizon, but with any of our digital effects if we're going to take the time to develop them we might as well design them well enough to use in other applications. Who knows what we'll think of down the road; it's nice to have a large toolbox to draw from."

[Sacred Synthesis]

The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.

However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.

Right, which seems to relate it back to its Juno 106 origins.  These shortcomings put the Prophet '08 ahead of the Deepmind 12 by a mile.  There's just no comparing the two instruments.  The P'08 stands firmly in the classic Dave Smith analog poly synth tradition; the Deepmind 12 is more of an interesting oddity that can make great sounds but lacks fundamental features.   

[Sacred Synthesis]

Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.

"That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming."


Really?  I missed that comment.  What exactly was said - just that DSI would not produce an all-digital instrument?

Over here: http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,536.0.html

Quote: "Nothing like that is on the horizon, but with any of our digital effects if we're going to take the time to develop them we might as well design them well enough to use in other applications. Who knows what we'll think of down the road; it's nice to have a large toolbox to draw from."

Thanks, Paul.  I wasn't following that thread very carefully.

[Paul Dither]

The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.

However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.

Right, which seems to relate it back to its Juno 106 origins.  These shortcomings put the Prophet '08 ahead of the Deepmind 12 by a mile.  There's just no comparing the two instruments.  The P'08 stands firmly in the classic Dave Smith analog poly synth tradition; the Deepmind 12 is more of an interesting oddity that can make great sounds but lacks fundamental features.

I'm sure that view will change in the coming weeks; not yours necessarily, but the one of the many potential buyers. I assume there are going to be dozens of reviews, which will cover lots of the PR work for Behringer. You can be certain that everyone from SonicState to Marc Doty will stream something about it (well, the SonicState review is actually upcoming). Also: No matter how you look at it: the DM12 is filled with numerous features and people will be really attracted to it due to its price already. It's certainly going to change something.

[eXode]

The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.

However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.

Right, which seems to relate it back to its Juno 106 origins.  These shortcomings put the Prophet '08 ahead of the Deepmind 12 by a mile.  There's just no comparing the two instruments.  The P'08 stands firmly in the classic Dave Smith analog poly synth tradition; the Deepmind 12 is more of an interesting oddity that can make great sounds but lacks fundamental features.

There's no denying that you get a lot of bang for your buck with the Deep Mind 12, but personally I can't quite stand synthesizers that have too many shared controls, but that is my preference. I think the menu diving aspect (how simple it may be) of the Deep Mind 12 is extremely off putting from what I've seen. While I know that the Prophet 08 has some menu diving too, I appreciate that the most important sound sculpting features are accessed from the front panel without shared controls, even the two oscillators have separate controls. Before the Prophet 6 or OB-6 I think the Prophet 08 was DSI's best synth from a UX perspective.

I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.

Would be quite cool with a VCO based 8 voice with the filter section from the Pro 2, and layer/split, etc. It wouldn't be cheap though.

[Paul Dither]

I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.

A VCO-based synth with everything else being digital and only one knob and an OLED display. 

[Sacred Synthesis]

The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.

However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.

Right, which seems to relate it back to its Juno 106 origins.  These shortcomings put the Prophet '08 ahead of the Deepmind 12 by a mile.  There's just no comparing the two instruments.  The P'08 stands firmly in the classic Dave Smith analog poly synth tradition; the Deepmind 12 is more of an interesting oddity that can make great sounds but lacks fundamental features.

I'm sure that view will change in the coming weeks; not yours necessarily, but the one of the many potential buyers. I assume there are going to be dozens of reviews, which will cover lots of the PR work for Behringer. You can be certain that everyone from SonicState to Marc Doty will stream something about it (well, the SonicState review is actually upcoming). Also: No matter how you look at it: the DM12 is filled with numerous features and people will be really attracted to it due to its price already. It's certainly going to change something.

I agree with most of what you've said, but I'm skeptical that the Deepmind 12 will have a drastic effect on the synth universe.  It will put so much within reach of those with less cash, and that alone could result in major sales, which will have some effect on DSI sales.  But I don't think it will substantially fill the DSI position.  Again, the Deepmind 12 strikes me as an interesting, but a handicapped, instrument. 

[Sacred Synthesis]

I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.

Would be quite cool with a VCO based 8 voice with the filter section from the Pro 2, and layer/split, etc. It wouldn't be cheap though.

I would certainly expect to see at least a prototype at NAMM this year.

And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08.  That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode.  I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard.  Bull's eye!

[Paul Dither]

I agree with most of what you've said, but I'm skeptical that the Deepmind 12 will have a drastic effect on the synth universe.  It will put so much within reach of those with less cash, and that alone could result in major sales, which will have some effect on DSI sales.  But I don't think it will substantially fill the DSI position.  Again, the Deepmind 12 strikes me as an interesting, but a handicapped, instrument.

Oh, I didn't mean that it could affect DSI on a larger scale, but maybe the sales of the Prophet '08. I agree that both are not fully comparable, but there's the novelty aspect and then the price, which I suspect will draw lots of peoples' attention towards it.

[Sacred Synthesis]

I agree with most of what you've said, but I'm skeptical that the Deepmind 12 will have a drastic effect on the synth universe.  It will put so much within reach of those with less cash, and that alone could result in major sales, which will have some effect on DSI sales.  But I don't think it will substantially fill the DSI position.  Again, the Deepmind 12 strikes me as an interesting, but a handicapped, instrument.

Oh, I didn't mean that it could affect DSI on a larger scale, but maybe the sales of the Prophet '08. I agree that both are not fully comparable, but there's the novelty aspect and then the price, which I suspect will draw lots of peoples' attention towards it.

Agreed.

[eXode]

And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08.  That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode.  I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard.  Bull's eye!

Yeah, that would be great!

I also sincerely hope that if they make a new synth it will have more than one LFO. My biggest gripe with both the Prophet 6 and the OB 6 is the single LFO.

[Paul Dither]

I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.

Would be quite cool with a VCO based 8 voice with the filter section from the Pro 2, and layer/split, etc. It wouldn't be cheap though.

I would certainly expect to see at least a prototype at NAMM this year.

And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08.  That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode.  I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard.  Bull's eye!

I'm pretty sure there's going to be an announcement at Winter NAMM. I don't believe it's going to be a duotimbral VCO-based 8 voice with the Pro 2's filter section. For some reason that seems to be too redundant, as it would basically be a product made up of recycled elements only that have been released in some other shape or form since summer 2014.

[eXode]

I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.

Would be quite cool with a VCO based 8 voice with the filter section from the Pro 2, and layer/split, etc. It wouldn't be cheap though.

I would certainly expect to see at least a prototype at NAMM this year.

And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08.  That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode.  I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard.  Bull's eye!

I'm pretty sure there's going to be an announcement at Winter NAMM. I don't believe it's going to be a duotimbral VCO-based 8 voice with the Pro 2's filter section. For some reason that seems to be too redundant, as it would basically be a product made up of recycled elements only that have been released in some other shape or form since summer 2014.

On the other hand, one could argue that it's exactly what they did with the synth on a chip products:
Prophet 08 - MoPho - Tetra - MoPho Keyboard - MoPho X4.

[Paul Dither]

On the other hand, one could argue that it's exactly what they did with the synth on a chip products:
Prophet 08 - MoPho - Tetra - MoPho Keyboard - MoPho X4.

That is true. But with the last couple of years' focus on the Prophet 12/Pro 2 and the Prophet-6/OB-6, I would expect something that doesn't continue either of those lines. If I were Dave, I couldn't imagine anything less exciting after the past couple of years. But then, I am not Dave, so maybe you'll be lucky. Either way, I've never found it that hard to predict where DSI would go next.

[Sacred Synthesis]

And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08.  That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode.  I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard.  Bull's eye!

Yeah, that would be great!

I also sincerely hope that if they make a new synth it will have more than one LFO. My biggest gripe with both the Prophet 6 and the OB 6 is the single LFO.

Same here - the single LFO issue.  But that's where morphing into a Prophet '08 saves the day.  Four big beautiful LFOs!  Of course, we're crossing over the magic $3,000 line with this one.

[Sacred Synthesis]

On the other hand, one could argue that it's exactly what they did with the synth on a chip products:
Prophet 08 - MoPho - Tetra - MoPho Keyboard - MoPho X4.

That is true. But with the last couple of years' focus on the Prophet 12/Pro 2 and the Prophet-6/OB-6, I would expect something that doesn't continue either of those lines. If I were Dave, I couldn't imagine anything less exciting after the past couple of years. But then, I am not Dave, so maybe you'll be lucky. Either way, I've never found it that hard to predict where DSI would go next.

As Robot Heart often says, there's no shortage of new ideas at the DSI office.

This whole situation makes it unusually challenging to imagine what DSI will come out with next.  I had thought a purely digital instrument was their most likely option, but apparently not.  Along the remaining analog or analog/digital hybrid lines, it's really hard to guess this one.  It's much easier to guess which instrument will be retired next.   

[tumble2k]

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I don't think the Prophet '08 is going to be retired any time soon. I also think DSI is really well positioned to deal with the competition from the likes of Deep Mind 12.

Deep Mind is a remake of a Juno, an entry-level synth of its time. It still is an entry level synth. It specs out better than Prophet '08 because of its added effects and four voices, but it's lacking in key areas that have been pointed out already. The Deep Mind dramatically changes the low range of the polysynth market and may well kill the Mopho X4 (the Minilogue must be hurting the same). However, DSI has already moved out of the low end monosynth market and can cede the low end polysynth market.

If the Deep Mind had been available when I bought the Prophet '08 I would have seriously considered it but given the street price of the Prophet '08 I would probably still have gone for it because it's a more serious and higher end machine with better design.

DSI's advantage here is that they have a portfolio of high end synths that are very well designed for their purpose: streamlined sound design and musical performance. Creating instruments like these will be difficult for low end manufacturers because they will need to make compromises to reach a price point. So as long as DSI can hold the high end it can stay in business.

If you want a 8 voice polyphonic analog synth, DSI has a keyboard and module for you. If you want to relive the days of VCO past DSI has two for you, and both come in keyboard and module form. If you want the ultimate sound design playground, DSI has a keyboard and module and mono version for you! But to a customer that feels a 12 voice poly synth is the same as any other 12 voice poly synth, the Dave Smith instruments are going to be too luxurious to justify.

[jdt9517]

The only thing I'm sure of is that each time I've questioned DSI about the Prophet '08's future, I've been told the instrument is still a big seller.  Although the Deepmind 12 may somewhat affect this, I doubt it will be a Prophet '08 killer.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it."

Dave Smith's analog instruments live on the legacy of the P-5.  There are a lot of cheaper keyboards out there but none have the DSI sound or reputation.  In this day of age I doubt a competitor synth will be able to do to the P-08 what the DX-7 did to the P-5.

So what would DSI be able to make that would make me want to replace my P-08?  Probably nothing.   If I was buying something in the DSI line, I would probably go with a Pro 2 (which I did) or a P-12.  I would do that to compliment my P-08 rather than replace it. 

If I am just coming into the analog market, I would want something analog with the most modern features.  There is a lot to be said about DCO's over VCO's.  SS already discussed it, and I won't repeat it here.  If you are a VCO purist, then it is the P-6.  That person won't consider a P-08 type synth anyway.

If you're willing to go DCO (which I think is superior to VCO) then an upgraded format of the P-08 is about as good as it gets.  So I go with SS's thought of a P-08 Mk II.  Stick with the P-08 approach and modernize it with the latest features.  If I had my wish list, I would include the on-board effects, high pass or variable filter like on the OB-6, and audio over USB.  I would also update the sequencer like on the Pro 2.   

Finally, I would put the power transformer into the unit rather than a wall wart.  There is something very cheap feeling about a wall wart.  I don't use my P-08 for gigs, but if I did, I would be very concerned about the thin wires breaking and having to replace the transformer regularly.  If I was still working professionally, this may have been a deal breaker for me.  Even without gigging, I don't like moving the P-08 for fear of putting stress on the wall wart wires and connection.  That's not something I should have to deal with on a pro level instrument.   DSI put internal transformers in the P-12 and Pro 2.  The P-08 deserves an internal transformer. 

Other than the above, I wouldn't try to improve on an already successful (and potentially classic) product. 

[Sacred Synthesis]

I've found the last two posts really encouraging.  I only wish you guys worked for DSI!

There's one element that hasn't been appreciated enough in our discussions, and Jdt9517 just hinted at it: the unique sonic character of the Prophet '08.  I think the P'08 has somewhat suffered from its beginning as being merely the portion that was extracted from the Poly Evolver.  From the start, it was conceived as only the analog portion of the PEK, and not as a unique instrument in its own right with its own voice.  This image has stuck to it.  Regardless, the P'08 is often viewed as a compromised instrument or one that falls short of all sorts of marks.  It falls short of the Prophet 5 mark, the Prophet 600 mark, the Poly Evolver mark, and now even the Prophet-6 mark.  It falls short also of the analog mark, because its oscillators are digitally controlled and therefore sound thin!  Honestly, I can't think of another synthesizer about which I've read more online criticism.  If you want to attract some, simply post a compliment about it under some one's P'08 video, and the critics will come out of the woodwork soon enough.  It baffles my mind.

In my opinion, the Prophet '08 sounds fantastic.  I've quite fallen in love with its distinctive voice.  It doesn't need chorus, phaser, flanger, or tons of reverb and delay to sound beautiful, although it sounds as lush as the best when drenched in reverb.  Its classic string and brass sounds are second to none.  Its single-voice mono patches admittedly can't match a Model D, although I found they could nearly stand up to a Voyager.  I would put its sawtooth and square leads right next to an ARP Odyssey.  My point is, I think the P'08 sets its own marks.  It can stand as a fully capable mono or poly synth, and this because it has its own tone - one that is sweet, pleasant, and recognizable.  I simply don't compare it to anything else. 

It will be a sad day when the Prophet '08 is retired.  What could possibly fill its place?  Certainly not a Deep Mind 12, nor a Prophet 12, nor a Propher-6, nor even a Poly Evolver Keyboard.  Here's the best proof I can offer:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-CSFEgC2tTydFcvrBITryRPZHg4tUde5