The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?

Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« on: October 14, 2016, 11:43:17 PM »
I just got a pro 2 and I noticed something unusual with the VCA envelope.

Basically when I set a long release time and then play two notes back to back, the second one doesn't seem to re-trigger the enveloper despite the "retrigger" option being set to "ON".

Here's how to reproduce the problem:
1) Initialize to the basic patch (via the global menu)
2) Set the "attack" of the amp enveloper to its max value.
3) Set the "release" of the amp enveloper to its max value.
4) Make sure retrigger is "on" in the misc params menu
5) Press and hold a key on the keyboard, then release it
6) While the previous note is still audible and is fading out as part of the release phase, press another note.

At this point notice that the second note plays instantly as if the attack was set to 0,  instead of retrigger the envelope and playing a slow attack.

The only way I can get the slow attack to trigger again is by waiting for the release phase of the previous note to finish.

This makes playing pad-like sounds rather awkward because only the first one plays with a slow attack while subsequent notes play as if the attack was 0.

Another way to trigger this problem is simply by playing two notes in "machine gun" style (e.g. rapidly play one then the other and repeat).  Despite the attack being set to the slowest value, notice how the notes start to play rapidly.

Hopefully that explanation made sense.

Is anyone else experiencing this or is there something wrong with my unit?

Thanks!

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2016, 01:17:13 AM »
Retrigger doesn't seem to do anything, no idea why.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2016, 11:56:55 AM »
Retrigger doesn't seem to do anything, no idea why.

Well that's a bit of a bummer  :(

Do you know if there are any plans to fix this in a firmware update?

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2016, 12:10:57 PM »
Might be worth you sending an email to support@davesmithinstruments.com they can probably give you some more info.

P.S. If they let you know how to get it working can you post here because I would love to know!

NLB

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2016, 02:24:57 AM »
I can confirm this behaviour and offer some additional info.

Try this:

- Set Amp attack to maximum and release to zero.
- Now try machine-gunning two notes - you will notice that the envelope correctly re-triggers from the start of the attack phase, and you should hear nothing.
- Now turn-up the release to about 9 O'clock and try again. You notice that the envelope is re-triggering, but from the wrong position, not start of attack phase, but from a position related to the release setting.
- Repeat the test at different release settings and you'll hear the difference.

The problem also occurs when retrigger is set to off. The envelopes do seem to retrigger, but after the attack stage. There is no smooth transition between notes as you would expect when plaything legato with glide.
EDIT: scratch that - tried again and retrigger off does work as expected. I'll re-examine the patches where i noticed the problem.


Using OS 1.2.0.2

Cheers!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 03:28:31 AM by NLB »

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2016, 09:17:54 AM »
Ok I just received an email back from DSI.  It looks like this is the intended behavior :(.  Ah well, I guess we'll just have to live with this quirk.

The email (I hope it's ok that I'm posting it here):
Quote
Thanks for contacting us here at DSI. This is the intended and normal operation of the Pro 2. The Pro 2 is monophonic with paraphonic capability. This means that while it plays a single note at a time, it can also play up to 4 notes at a time but, in both cases using the same VCA. In either case, this means that when the VCA has a long envelope release and is triggered, playing a new note will not trigger from the initial attack of the envelope but where the envelope is currently in its cycle. Therefore, where ever the envelope is within its release stage is where the new note will start and thus your example of not being able to play slow fading in pad type sounds is a direct result of the VCA's behavior.

In Paraphonic mode, you can play up to 4 notes on the Pro 2, even though it is a monophonic instrument due to the fact that each oscillator can be assigned to a separate key e.g., 4 oscillators, 4 notes. Once a fifth note is played, the first note will be stolen.

This is the architecture of the instrument and therefore normal operation. I hope this answers your question and enjoy your Pro 2.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2016, 12:23:05 PM »
I have found some strange behavior in regards to the envelope retrigger. I am still on 1.1.0

With a paraphonic patch, with a slow arpeggio on, and a relatively long Amp release, the Amp envelope will retrigger with every note, regardless if "retrigger" is on or off. However, if I push the "Hold" button, with Retrigger on, play some notes, then switch retrigger off (with hold still engaged), the amp envelope behaves as I would like to (with sustained notes). This does not work if hold is not engaged, and each time I pull up the patch, I have to go through the same process to get the desired sound.

I also have the LFOs set to slow cycles, but have "wave reset" on. This causes the wave to be reset with each note trigger. Normally, the LFOs would have almost no effect, as the cycles are set to 6, 8 and 16 quarter notes, while the arp is set to quarter notes. However, when I do the "hold" trick, the LFOs will run through their full cycle, each starting at the exact point in their cycle that I have them set to.

I hope this makes sense to someone...finding it hard to explain.

NLB

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2016, 06:42:22 AM »
Ok I just received an email back from DSI.  It looks like this is the intended behavior :(.  Ah well, I guess we'll just have to live with this quirk.

The email (I hope it's ok that I'm posting it here):
Quote
Thanks for contacting us here at DSI. This is the intended and normal operation of the Pro 2. The Pro 2 is monophonic with paraphonic capability. This means that while it plays a single note at a time, it can also play up to 4 notes at a time but, in both cases using the same VCA. In either case, this means that when the VCA has a long envelope release and is triggered, playing a new note will not trigger from the initial attack of the envelope but where the envelope is currently in its cycle. Therefore, where ever the envelope is within its release stage is where the new note will start and thus your example of not being able to play slow fading in pad type sounds is a direct result of the VCA's behavior.

In Paraphonic mode, you can play up to 4 notes on the Pro 2, even though it is a monophonic instrument due to the fact that each oscillator can be assigned to a separate key e.g., 4 oscillators, 4 notes. Once a fifth note is played, the first note will be stolen.

This is the architecture of the instrument and therefore normal operation. I hope this answers your question and enjoy your Pro 2.

Hey, thanks for getting back with the info.
What DSI are saying makes sense, but I'm still confused as to the difference between the trigger modes.

I would have thought that re-trigger on would re-start the Amp envelope from zero as long as there are no other keys held down. The only monosynth I can compare atm is Waldorf Pulse v1 which can be set to behave this way.

Not a showstopper for me by any means, but would still like to understand the difference between retrigger on and off, if there is one.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2016, 10:45:54 PM »
That sounds really weird.  If what DSI is saying is true, the only way to get back to Attack and Decay is for the Release to finish the cycle.  So then when playing a series of notes it will be ADSR - SR -SR, etc., unless you manage to have the release short enough for it to finish its cycle before pressing the new note.  That's unlike any synth I have ever played.  I have always understood that in a mono synth, pressing another note makes the ADSR retrigger from the beginning regardless of where you are in the envelope.  So, regardless of where you are in the envelope, you always go back to "A" when you press a new note. 
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 01:22:02 AM »
That sounds really weird.  If what DSI is saying is true, the only way to get back to Attack and Decay is for the Release to finish the cycle.  So then when playing a series of notes it will be ADSR - SR -SR, etc., unless you manage to have the release short enough for it to finish its cycle before pressing the new note.  That's unlike any synth I have ever played.  I have always understood that in a mono synth, pressing another note makes the ADSR retrigger from the beginning regardless of where you are in the envelope.  So, regardless of where you are in the envelope, you always go back to "A" when you press a new note.

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. Are we really saying that the Pro2 cannot retrigger the amp envelope on each key press in mono mode? This would mean bass sequences with long releases would not be possible?

I was under the impression that the Pro 2 was a mono synth first and formost and it's paraphonic abilities were an addition to that?

My pro 2 has been sitting packed away due to unforeseen personal circumstances but am soon to revisit it, and this has seriously thrown a spanner in the works, if true. Maybe DSIs response has been misinterpreted ?

I hope so  :-[



NLB

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 09:17:40 AM »
That sounds really weird.  If what DSI is saying is true, the only way to get back to Attack and Decay is for the Release to finish the cycle.  So then when playing a series of notes it will be ADSR - SR -SR, etc., unless you manage to have the release short enough for it to finish its cycle before pressing the new note.  That's unlike any synth I have ever played.  I have always understood that in a mono synth, pressing another note makes the ADSR retrigger from the beginning regardless of where you are in the envelope.  So, regardless of where you are in the envelope, you always go back to "A" when you press a new note.

I think there is some confusion here. DSI seem to be mainly referring to paraphonic mode, where the 4 notes share the same Amp envelope. So that does seem to be normal behaviour.

Same when playing in normal monophonic mode - the amp envelope stays open until you release all keys. When you then press a new key, the attack stage should pick-up from the decay level. This also seems to me to be normal behaviour for retrigger off mode. Try it and see.

I've also found that re-trigger mode does work, but is best heard when using the filter. Set a filter envelope with a medium attack and try both modes.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 10:36:08 AM by NLB »

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2016, 10:28:55 PM »
I finally had a chance to investigate this on my own.   What Bloodsample said is what happens in mono mode on my Pro 2 also.  So, I went to my ARP Odyssey (Korg Reissue) to see what it did.  The circuitry in the reissue is nearly identical to the original.  To my surprise, it did the same thing.  To get the long swells that re-triggered, I had to use the ADSR on the cutoff filter.  Sure enough, when I went back to the Pro 2, the ADSR on the filter re-triggered so I could create the long re-triggering swells that way.

So, DSI is correct.  You cannot use the VCA envelope to create re-triggering long swells.  It must be done through the filter ADSR.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2016, 02:08:14 AM »
I finally had a chance to investigate this on my own.   What Bloodsample said is what happens in mono mode on my Pro 2 also.  So, I went to my ARP Odyssey (Korg Reissue) to see what it did.  The circuitry in the reissue is nearly identical to the original.  To my surprise, it did the same thing.  To get the long swells that re-triggered, I had to use the ADSR on the cutoff filter.  Sure enough, when I went back to the Pro 2, the ADSR on the filter re-triggered so I could create the long re-triggering swells that way.

So, DSI is correct.  You cannot use the VCA envelope to create re-triggering long swells.  It must be done through the filter ADSR.

So how would you retrigger a sound which starts at full volume and slowest dimishes in volume with a long release all with the filter fully closed ?

Using the filter ADSR, the sound would start with a more open filter and slowly close the filter I would have thought. I dunno.

Does this happen with every synth, as in this is synth 101 and i should know this?

 I'm in an unfortunate situation where I cannot even try at the moment, so appreciate the responses.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2016, 08:24:12 AM »
Well, that's what I thought too.  I always thought that attack of the VCA envelope re-triggered.  When it did not on either the Pro 2 or the Odyssey, that's telling me this is a not-so-obvious part of synth 101.  Maybe someone else out there with a different mono synth, e.g., Voyager, could do the experiment and see what happens on those synths.   

This would explain something else.  On another thread Sacred Synthesis was complaining how the P-08 in mono mode would "click" when re-triggering notes.  This is probably why.  Since the amp does not turn off and re-trigger, there is an immediate sound of the note going through the re-triggering process.  Hmm.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 07:43:47 AM »
What is the consensus on this "retrigger"? I also find it does not work. The setting ON or OFF doesn't make any difference. Isn't "everything" supposed to be retriggered? Both filter-, amp-, and aux-envelopes? If I play only one key, or if I release the key before pressing the next, it retriggers regardless of the retrigger setting is ON or OFF. If I press another key before releasing the first one it does not retrigger, regardless of the retrigger setting is ON or OFF.

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2019, 08:57:18 AM »
Itís worth pointing out that envelope retrigger is not the same as envelope reset.

Retrigger means that each subsequent keypress after the first will continue from where the envelop was (if it has not been allowed to complete its full travel). (This is Iím contrast to legato, where the envelope continues unaffected through each subsequent keypress.)

Reset is where each keypress returns the envelope to its initial postition.

The Pro 2 has the first behaviour but not the second. I submitted envelope reset as a feature request via a support ticket.


Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 09:17:56 AM »
Thanks! That was a clear explanation. But does this retrigger affect all envelopes (filter-, amp-, and aux-) as I assume?

Re: Envelope doesn't re-trigger until release completes. Bug?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 01:45:24 AM »
I assume so as there is no individual separate setting for filter EG and amp EG as there is on the Moog Subsequent (which also has separate reset buttons for each envelope).