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Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator

Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« on: September 08, 2016, 01:16:19 PM »
Hello
I have been trying to wrap my head around this.. In the manual, page 5 states the following concerning Paraphonic mode.

"...In this mode, the four main oscillators can be triggered independently,
each with its own envelope..."

"...Each oscillator is triggered with an envelope set by the VCA shape..."

I cannot find where this is done. What screen allows me to choose which of the 4 Oscillators  and where to adjust this VCA shape for that specific Oscillator?

Thanks..

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 02:10:41 PM »
The envelopes are all the same, they share the single amp Env.

But they can be triggered separately, so you have four instances of the same envelope shape.

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 02:57:06 PM »
Thanks. Not really the answer I expected based on how its described. Thanks again....

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 03:17:10 PM »
Isn't it possible that each of four oscillators have dedicated VCA with EG but share the same common Amp EG controller knobs, so that the resulting outcome sounds much more like a polysynth sort of articulation??

The VCFs are however, only a single shared by all four oscillators though.
DSI: PRO2, evolver keyboard, ensoniq: VFX-SD, Roland: V-Synth, JD-XA, TB-3, Clavia: nord wave, Kurzweil: PC361, Arturia: microBrute, KORG 800DV, monotribe, monotron, monotron DUO, kaossilator 2, MakeNoise 0-Coast, lots of iOS/Mac soft-instruments
Roland A-50, KMI QuNexus
Logic Pro, KORG SQ-1

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 05:51:58 PM »
The envelopes are all the same, they share the single amp Env.

But they can be triggered separately, so you have four instances of the same envelope shape.

If velocity-sensitive, shaped as the last note played; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLMurxbeTTw#t=04m47s
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 06:02:28 PM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Prophet 2000

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2016, 02:54:37 PM »
The envelopes are all the same, they share the single amp Env.

But they can be triggered separately, so you have four instances of the same envelope shape.

If velocity-sensitive, shaped as the last note played; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLMurxbeTTw#t=04m47s

Yeah, as I said all the oscillators pass through the same filters, the video shows this VCFs sharing effect, not VCA.
On the other hand, I suppose the PRO2 has four VCAs and four Amp EGs each dedicated to each oscillators, but share the single set of knobs for shaping the Amp EG. This explains the reason why the PRO2 has better articulation closer to a polysynth, compared with other paraphonic synths like vintage MP-4 Mono/Poly or moog Sub37.
DSI: PRO2, evolver keyboard, ensoniq: VFX-SD, Roland: V-Synth, JD-XA, TB-3, Clavia: nord wave, Kurzweil: PC361, Arturia: microBrute, KORG 800DV, monotribe, monotron, monotron DUO, kaossilator 2, MakeNoise 0-Coast, lots of iOS/Mac soft-instruments
Roland A-50, KMI QuNexus
Logic Pro, KORG SQ-1

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2016, 12:42:22 AM »
Hi Guys,

As far as I know (and as always I could be wrong) there is only one analog VCA and there is also one filter Env that is re-triggered with every note.

In Para mode there are 4 extra digital envelopes on the outputs of the oscillators. So each oscillator passes through its own digital Env/VCA, then the filter (with re-triggered Env) and then the real VCA (triggered from first note).

So any subsequent notes attack phase will be limited to the real VCAs level as defined by the Amp env from the first note played.

There is some strangeness with all this as if you have the release of the Amp env down low it doesn't work correctly and the VCA seems to be re-triggered, I'm not sure if this is by design or a bug!


Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2016, 07:20:09 AM »
You can also use the left-right waves to modulate the (pre-filter) outputs of the individual oscillators, in addition to the individual auto-generated (pre-filter) output levels. And if you use the LFOs to modulate the filter at a slow rate, rather than the envelopes, there are even more options (including LFO re-triggering as a consideration).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 07:26:49 AM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Prophet 2000

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2016, 02:56:39 PM »
The amp envelope does articulate each oscillator in paraphonic mode. To demonstrate this, turn the envelope retriever off, set the amp envelope to have a longish attack, play and hold one note and listen to the attack, then add subsequent notes while holding the first and you will hear each have their own attack. This is unique. It gets more complicated and less traditionally "polysynth" when you take the sustain down.

Since there are five, freely assignable envelopes, you would think one could assign the osc level of each osc to a separate env and get a traditional poly synth, but as far as I know, on the Pro 2, the individual osc levels don't do anything in paraphonic mode; their levels are simultaneously controlled by the "quad level" (or whatever it's called...not around my synth right now).

Marc Doty has a couple of long videos dedicated to polyphony on the Pro 2 that may be of interest. Personally, I love the quirks of polyphony on the Pro 2. I love to set each osc to a different shape, or different tuning, or both, and just hit one note over and over. With long amp release times, this can get very interesting. With different mode added to each osc on top of that...there is such an incredible amount to do in paraphonic mode.

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 04:38:28 PM »
This demo may be of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFPCbtDEYXI
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Paraphonic mode, Separate Envelope for each Oscillator
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 05:29:50 PM »
So - based on the video linked above, and at least as I understand it, it looks as if the (pre-filter) mix levels of the held notes are inversely biased, or "ducked", when the envelope is re-triggered.

1 trig:  ^----------.
osclvl: _---v-v-v-v-._

2 trig:     ^-------.
osclvl: ____--v-v-v-._

3 trig:       ^.^---.
osclvl: ______-.--v-._

4 trig:           ^-.
osclvl: __________--._

gate:    ^--^-^-^-^-.


The amount of the ducking is inversely proportional to the envelope level itself, which allows existing notes to remain at the same level while they are held, while at the same time decoupling the filter(s) and VCA envelopes from needing to know anything about the state of an individual oscillator (the only relevant state is the keyboard gate, and the trigger generated each time a new key is pressed).

In essence, the filter and VCA envelopes are retriggering, but the output levels of each oscillator are ducked prior to the input to the filter(s), providing the illusion of being held at a continuous value. That ought to be patented....
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 05:49:46 PM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Prophet 2000