Presets

Re: Presets
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2023, 11:22:45 AM »
Though my ultimate sound-quest is more steered to emulation.  Making a patch that actually sounds like a cymbal is one goal, and not that tacky drum machine sound.  I got pretty close on the Summit, importing real waveforms from a crash cymbal.  The harmonics after the initial crash ebb and flow in complex manner on a real cymbal, so I think that's the challenge.

This got me thinking about something. There are so many electronic drum manufacturers that are constantly racing for better sampling and pad response time but none of them are looking into physical modelling or other forms of synthesis which (hearing the Nord Drum 3P) really come off far more organic sounding than some of the $5000 modules out there.

In many ways you are doing exactly what these machines were initially attempting to do, mimic other instruments. This is likely why your music comes off as incredibly organic sounding despite being synthesized...same with Sacred Synthesis’ work.


Thanks for the compliment Lobo Lives.   If I'm doing any serious drum track I think I would rather just use my acoustic drums, but mic-ing them up and Eq'ing them for a recoding is a real pain if you're not a pro at that aspect.  Not to mention that I'm rusty as hell anymore on the actual kit.  At one point I considered getting a higher end Roland Electric drum set to use for my synth mixes, but I wasn't about to drop 3K  to get the quality I wanted.  It seems until you get to the really high end electric drum sets they all have the same canned sounds.  I haven't checked out the Nord yet, but I'll do that.
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Re: Presets
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2023, 12:38:57 PM »
Though my ultimate sound-quest is more steered to emulation.  Making a patch that actually sounds like a cymbal is one goal, and not that tacky drum machine sound.  I got pretty close on the Summit, importing real waveforms from a crash cymbal.  The harmonics after the initial crash ebb and flow in complex manner on a real cymbal, so I think that's the challenge.

This got me thinking about something. There are so many electronic drum manufacturers that are constantly racing for better sampling and pad response time but none of them are looking into physical modelling or other forms of synthesis which (hearing the Nord Drum 3P) really come off far more organic sounding than some of the $5000 modules out there.

In many ways you are doing exactly what these machines were initially attempting to do, mimic other instruments. This is likely why your music comes off as incredibly organic sounding despite being synthesized...same with Sacred Synthesis’ work.


Thanks for the compliment Lobo Lives.   If I'm doing any serious drum track I think I would rather just use my acoustic drums, but mic-ing them up and Eq'ing them for a recoding is a real pain if you're not a pro at that aspect.  Not to mention that I'm rusty as hell anymore on the actual kit.  At one point I considered getting a higher end Roland Electric drum set to use for my synth mixes, but I wasn't about to drop 3K  to get the quality I wanted.  It seems until you get to the really high end electric drum sets they all have the same canned sounds.  I haven't checked out the Nord yet, but I'll do that.

I think you’ll really like the Nord, physical modelling, FM, Virtual analog all on-board and incredibly simple to use. Reminds me of old school Simmons drums but you can take it a lot further with the onboard effects and features. I saw a video recently and it was all ambient atmospheric pad sounds...all done using hand percussion on the unit.

LPF83

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Re: Presets
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2023, 07:54:54 AM »
Throughout this discussion, it dawned on me that it may be worth it to take a step back, and pose the question:

What constitutes the use of a preset, specifically, to you?

When I think of "using a preset", I am typically talking about using anything other than init patch as the basis for sound design.   So the definition of a preset could be a sound other than init that came on the synth from the factory, via another soundbank, or even a patch that I have saved as part of a previous sound design session (regardless of whether it started as an init patch or not).

So, in my current day workflow, I very regularly use something other than init patch as a starting point for tweaking.  It rarely ends up sounding anything remotely like the raw material I started from.  In addition to sculpting the sound via synthesis (oscillators/filters/env/modulation), by the time I run it through EQ and FX there is guaranteed to be no part of that sound which would be recognizable to the original sound designer (even if I am the original sound designer).

I can think of a few occasions when I did in fact use presets as-is.   In my early 20s, a friend of mine who was fascinated by my gear and music making hobby would come over and we would throw together some cheesy/fun novelty tracks.  One synth I had at the time was the Yamaha TX81Z, and because of the crappy panel editing as it relates to FM synth programming, it was not rare to just settle on one of the presets.  I remember the patch named Lately Bass distinctly, because it was such a recognizable bass sound, yet so much could be done with it;  it is now regarded as a iconic patch that reguarly gets recreated on other synths (sometimes faithfully, other times not so much), and many popular tracks were made with that bass preset.

But in general, now a preset is merely a starting point for me.  The end product is never very close to the original sound.

More food for thought -- for those familiar with genetic patch creation and morphing of editors like the Soundtower and Codeknobs editors, does creating mutations of existing patches fall under the category of using presets?  By that, I mean let's say I take a pad that I like from a third party sound bank, another pad from the factory presets, generate a hundred or so offspring mutants by making a few curated parameter range choices, then choose 1 or 2 of the best of and save it. 

Does that constitute relying on presets?  And where is the line begin and end between preset reliance and effective use of technology?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 07:56:42 AM by LPF83 »
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Presets
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2023, 08:42:42 AM »
I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve heard the D50’s Digital Native Dance patch on a soundtrack. It was everyone’s “go to”.

LPF83

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Re: Presets
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2023, 09:12:17 AM »
I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve heard the D50’s Digital Native Dance patch on a soundtrack. It was everyone’s “go to”.

There was also a patch called Soundtrack from the D-50 that got an absurd amount of use across Film/TV, new age music and who knows what else.  Some of those iconic patches are the reason Omnisphere exists today, I think Omnisphere is pretty much the modern incarnation of the D50.

I will say though, that I rarely use highly elaborate presets like those, where the sound consists of layers that contain their own arp/sequence or similar motion.  It's not that they can't be modified/morphed into something else, it's just that somehow unwrapping an existing sound that already seems "highly pre-produced" doesn't appeal to me.  I think this is one reason I never got on with Omnisphere... I felt too many of the sounds were playing themselves.  It is a very flexible synth/rompler that does a great deal of things right and certainly sounds good, but I just never found myself inspired either by the UI itself or the sounds. 
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Presets
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2023, 12:10:38 PM »
I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve heard the D50’s Digital Native Dance patch on a soundtrack. It was everyone’s “go to”.

There was also a patch called Soundtrack from the D-50 that got an absurd amount of use across Film/TV, new age music and who knows what else.  Some of those iconic patches are the reason Omnisphere exists today, I think Omnisphere is pretty much the modern incarnation of the D50.

I will say though, that I rarely use highly elaborate presets like those, where the sound consists of layers that contain their own arp/sequence or similar motion.  It's not that they can't be modified/morphed into something else, it's just that somehow unwrapping an existing sound that already seems "highly pre-produced" doesn't appeal to me.  I think this is one reason I never got on with Omnisphere... I felt too many of the sounds were playing themselves.  It is a very flexible synth/rompler that does a great deal of things right and certainly sounds good, but I just never found myself inspired either by the UI itself or the sounds.

I not only have the Soundtrack patch of the D50 sampled in my Prophet X, there is a factory Prophet X patch that emulates it and I also did my own version of it as well lol. With the Prophet X’s samples plus synthesis you can emulate and create a lot of D50 style patches (see my new video in the PX section of the forum).

I am still convinced with so many software VSTs being ported over to standalone hardware, I wonder if Omnisphere might follow suit. Yes there are synths now that can pull it off (PX, Quantum etc) but I really would like to see what Eric Persing (who helped make the D50 and founded Spectronics/Omnisphere) could approach a new hardware synth.

Re: Presets
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2023, 03:49:01 AM »
And where is the line begin and end between preset reliance and effective use of technology?

There is no line. Who cares about the story of the sound? How many tweaks before it is ‘new’?

If you make music with it then it’s effective use of technology

I just think of the countless classic tunes made with “presets”…