Pro3 Envelope Tips

Elric

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Pro3 Envelope Tips
« on: February 14, 2023, 04:31:01 PM »
>> "explicit envelope stage curve adjustment "

I think this has been requested/wished many times. I do hope they can do this, but also... do you know you can create envelope curves in the Modulation Matrix with something like (depending on the Envelope name):

Env [LPF]  >>  #  >>  Env [Filter] Decay

Though it works much better for curving the Decay than it does for curving the Attack. [Because of the envelopes' logarithmic(?) nature.]
(I haven't tried 'curving' the Release, but I did have fun modulating the Release with some FM! (AM really, I guess. Unless you are controlling the pitch with an Aux Envelope.)

Osc #  >>  #  >>  Env [VCA] Rel


>> " and finer velocity control of envelopes"

I almost never use the Velocity buttons for the envelopes.
You get much better control from the Mod Matrix.

Velocity  >>  #  >>  Env Amt [Filter/VCA/Aux 1/Aux 2]


Also, a Mod Matrix tip:  When you hold the Modulation / 'Source' button and you press a note/key multiple times, it cycles thru Velocity / Pressure / Note Num, as the Source.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 04:45:30 PM by Elric »
:Elric:
Kurzweil K, Pro3, TX81z, K1r, Triton w/MOSS, Wavestation EX in a bag in the corner.

chysn

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Re: Pro3 Envelope Tips
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2023, 07:03:37 PM »
Moderator note: This is split from the “When is the next update?” topic. It’s kind of a non sequitur for that topic, but contains helpful information about programming techniques. I’m going to try these myself!
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Re: Pro3 Envelope Tips
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2023, 08:44:18 PM »
>> "explicit envelope stage curve adjustment "

I think this has been requested/wished many times. I do hope they can do this, but also... do you know you can create envelope curves in the Modulation Matrix with something like (depending on the Envelope name):

Env [LPF]  >>  #  >>  Env [Filter] Decay

Though it works much better for curving the Decay than it does for curving the Attack. [Because of the envelopes' logarithmic(?) nature.]
(I haven't tried 'curving' the Release, but I did have fun modulating the Release with some FM! (AM really, I guess. Unless you are controlling the pitch with an Aux Envelope.)

Osc #  >>  #  >>  Env [VCA] Rel


>> " and finer velocity control of envelopes"

I almost never use the Velocity buttons for the envelopes.
You get much better control from the Mod Matrix.

Velocity  >>  #  >>  Env Amt [Filter/VCA/Aux 1/Aux 2]


Also, a Mod Matrix tip:  When you hold the Modulation / 'Source' button and you press a note/key multiple times, it cycles thru Velocity / Pressure / Note Num, as the Source.

Yes, well aware of being able to use the mod matrix to adjust envelope state curves but it’s a bit of a fiddly process compared to a direct control that morphs log-lin-exp (cf. Hydrasynth, Moog One). Also, the visual representation could be given via the current envelope graphic on the display.

As for velocity, again I know this can be done in the matrix. Your point kind of backs up my request, namely that the velocity buttons are a bit redundant in their current guise as they are just on/off. My suggestion was that pressing the button ought to allow the current soft knob on the display to set a value of 0-127 velocity depth as opposed to just on/off.

Elric

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Re: Pro3 Envelope Tips
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2023, 10:40:44 PM »
set a value of 0-127 velocity depth as opposed to just on/off.

Yes.

In any Envelope, in the "Env Amt" tab, the "Vel: On/Off" should be 0-127. (But that also would create a new Mod entry.)

[Actually, a HUGE problem here is that the Velocity buttons make the Envelope respond from zero to whatever the Amount setting is. If you set the Velocity control from the Mod Matrix, it goes from what the Amount setting is, to the +/- value you set there. Making it essentially the opposite control. So you can't easily switch from one to the other.]

But... that's getting pretty deep into re-programming.  --  Though, believe me, I have HUGE wishes for the 2.0 update for the Pro3 that I hope they can get to. (Including having the Envelope graphic represent the negative envelopes (flip it vertically), and include the Delay value in the graphic, and put a notch at the end of the Sustain so you can more easily see the release line's length...)

Anyway, yea, I get it.  I have more wishes than I have posted.  (And how about multiply and other *simple* math functions for the Matrix math! [The CPU should handle simple math well.])

Anyway, yea. I get you...

But then, somebody else will come back with, "You can't expect so much!"  Haha.  :/   Boooo.
Yes, I can.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 11:07:10 PM by Elric »
:Elric:
Kurzweil K, Pro3, TX81z, K1r, Triton w/MOSS, Wavestation EX in a bag in the corner.

Re: Pro3 Envelope Tips
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2023, 12:39:22 AM »
set a value of 0-127 velocity depth as opposed to just on/off.

Yes.

In any Envelope, in the "Env Amt" tab, the "Vel: On/Off" should be 0-127. (But that also would create a new Mod entry.)

[Actually, a HUGE problem here is that the Velocity buttons make the Envelope respond from zero to whatever the Amount setting is. If you set the Velocity control from the Mod Matrix, it goes from what the Amount setting is, to the +/- value you set there. Making it essentially the opposite control. So you can't easily switch from one to the other.]

But... that's getting pretty deep into re-programming.  --  Though, believe me, I have HUGE wishes for the 2.0 update for the Pro3 that I hope they can get to. (Including having the Envelope graphic represent the negative envelopes (flip it vertically), and include the Delay value in the graphic, and put a notch at the end of the Sustain so you can more easily see the release line's length...)

Anyway, yea, I get it.  I have more wishes than I have posted.  (And how about multiply and other *simple* math functions for the Matrix math! [The CPU should handle simple math well.])

Anyway, yea. I get you...

But then, somebody else will come back with, "You can't expect so much!"  Haha.  :/   Boooo.
Yes, I can.

I also submitted a request for the velocity-to-filter envelope behaviour to be amended:

It probably comes down to a question of design philosophy but for me the velocity-to-envelope-depth control seems backwards. When setting up a patch, I’d want the sound made when the velocity button is on and a key is struck at maximum velocity to always be exactly the same as the sound made when when the velocity button is turned off. So maximum velocity from the keys should always trigger the depth set by the envelope depth knob, irrespective of the velocity-to-envelope-depth value set. The velocity-to-envelope-depth value, I feel, should simply scale the depth achieved by the lowest velocity. So a value of 0 velocity-to-envelope-depth should sound exactly the same as when the velocity button is simply turned off, i.e. no velocity scaling is being applied.

Implemented as above makes sound design easier as one can program the sound without velocity first and then, when adding it, only one variable is being altered as the depth value is set, namely what depth the lowest velocity produces; maximum velocity will always achieve whatever was initially programmed. As soon as the velocity switch is turned on and a depth of anything other than maximum is set, the originally programmed sound is unobtainable without having to adjust the envelope depth knob to compensate. This obviously causes difficulty if a desired sound already has the envelope depth knob at or near maximum before the velocity switch was enabled.

Furthermore, from a sound design point of view, one may also not always want for the lowest velocity to produce zero envelope depth. Your current implementation unfortunately does not allow for the lowest velocity to produce a non-zero envelope depth when the velocity switch is engaged.

(For reference, my suggestion is how velocity-to-envelope-depth is implemented on synths such as the Moog Subsequent 37.)

Please would you consider changing the implementation as suggested to allow for better control over what happens at the lower velocity values. I realise that there may be some reluctance as it may cause already-programmed patches to sound different. In which case, much as you did with the addition of vintage mode for P6 and OB-6, perhaps you could make the new behaviour be a globally selectable option so that current patch behaviour could be preserved, if desired.