Akai MPC

[LPF83]

What are your thoughts on the Force LPF83? My girlfriend has actually just got into music production and is working with Ableton and just got the Arturia Minilab 3 and is getting really into it. I caught her watching some videos on the Force and I sat and watched it with her and she actually said she might be interested in it and the more I read up and watched videos on it the more I think that I’d prefer it over an MPC.

Unfortunately I have no experience with the Force, therefore no basis for comparison; I would suggest researching well (watching a lot of videos) because they seem to be very different.  As I understand it, one of Force's strengths is arrangement (something the MPC is weak at), but for my particular use case, arranging on the unit itself wasn't something I was after.  Espen Kraft recently made a video about how buying the Force was a mistake for his particular use case (live shows), which may be worth checking out.  I think most that have the Force are happy with it but I've read the workflow is not as fast as the MPC.  I will link below a thread on the mpc forums which might be helpful.  If I wanted a standalone Ableton-like device, I think I would have to look hard at Push 3.  To me, part of the magic of the Live 2 is the battery and speaker and being able to drop it unwired on my lap, which not many devices offer (I think the Push 3 does but the battery life is less than half of the Live 2).

https://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=212155

[chysn]

So, let's say I have a composition in a song form. I have "part A" which is 84 beats long, "part B" which is 64 beats long, an intro of 8 beats, and a 32-beat bridge. The song goes Intro-A-A-B-A-Bridge-B.

Does MPC make it easy (or possible) to deal with compositional structure? Specifically

(1) Can you work with parts independently? Record or edit only part B, for example.
(2) Can you change the order of parts easily? For example, if you want to go A-B-A-B instead of A-A-B.
(3) Can tracks be independently enabled or muted for each instance of a part?

Essentially what I'm looking for is an MMT-8 but with the ability to record audio. Parts in the MMT-8 can be a few hundred beats long, which is plenty, and a Song can chain many (up to 100, IIRC) parts, and each step in the chain could independently mute any combination of the 8 tracks. I'd have an MMT-8 now, except it's MIDI-only, which means one synth per track. I cannot afford eight Prophets 5!

[LPF83]

So, let's say I have a composition in a song form. I have "part A" which is 84 beats long, "part B" which is 64 beats long, an intro of 8 beats, and a 32-beat bridge. The song goes Intro-A-A-B-A-Bridge-B.

Does MPC make it easy (or possible) to deal with compositional structure? Specifically

(1) Can you work with parts independently? Record or edit only part B, for example.
(2) Can you change the order of parts easily? For example, if you want to go A-B-A-B instead of A-A-B.
(3) Can tracks be independently enabled or muted for each instance of a part?

Essentially what I'm looking for is an MMT-8 but with the ability to record audio. Parts in the MMT-8 can be a few hundred beats long, which is plenty, and a Song can chain many (up to 100, IIRC) parts, and each step in the chain could independently mute any combination of the 8 tracks. I'd have an MMT-8 now, except it's MIDI-only, which means one synth per track. I cannot afford eight Prophets 5!

I don't think its strength is in arrangement at all; in fact that's probably its most cited shortcoming.  It is only an idea springboard for me, so there are a lot of potential uses for it that I haven't explorered, so I don't want to say it can't do what you're asking, but I would say that if you aren't able to find a video on Youtube demoing the specific behavior you want, then I would assume it can't do it.  I've never used an MMT-8 so I don't have a point of reference.  You can certainly have sequences of different lengths (even of multiple tempos), but I rarely use it that way.  The reason I don't think of it as an 8 track recorder is simply because I don't even know if you can combine parts of audio from different tracks onto each other.  The touch screen interface has never invited me to try that, so if I record something into say track #4 or whatever, it just stays there with minor edit.  I guess I've just gotten spoiled by the DAW when it comes to arranging, and using anything without a mouse to do that just doesn't appeal to me.  I will say that I tried it briefly as a looper, as it does have that function, but I was not impressed by that aspect of it.

On the subject of DAW, however, it can export projects to Ableton format -- which I think is kind of the intended flow once one is at the point of needing to arrange.  Oddly though, I haven't even done that yet. 

[LPF83]

@chysn : Also, I haven't even tried the MPC software, but I wonder if some of the software options there (for example MPC Beats is free, iMPC Pro 2 for iPad is only ten bucks) might help you consider whether the platform is right for you?  Not sure about Beats but with MPC 2.0 (the full DAW) you can swap projects back and forth between the standalone hardware, or use the hardware as a controller for the software (which some folks prefer to do when their computers are more powerful).  So the first two options might be a free or cheap way to dip a toe in the water so to speak.

https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-software

For me part of the magic is being able to just plop it into my lap and go, so adding yet another DAW to my studio (already using Ableton and Cubase and occasionally FLS) isn't hugely appealing.. but having most of that functionality in a compact and wireless form, and such an amazing and inspiring sampling device, is the real draw for me.
I don't think its strength is in arrangement at all; in fact that's probably its most cited shortcoming.  It is only an idea springboard for me, so there are a lot of potential uses for it that I haven't explorered, so I don't want to say it can't do what you're asking, but I would say that if you aren't able to find a video on Youtube demoing the specific behavior you want, then I would assume it can't do it.  I've never used an MMT-8 so I don't have a point of reference.  You can certainly have sequences of different lengths (even of multiple tempos), but I rarely use it that way.  The reason I don't think of it as an 8 track recorder is simply because I don't even know if you can combine parts of audio from different tracks onto each other.  The touch screen interface has never invited me to try that, so if I record something into say /

[chysn]

@LPF83, thank you, I appreciate your insights as usual. I don't mind learning a new workflow, but I'll either have to seriously get into watching MPC videos, or just buy one already and see if I like it.

This one looks promising:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpiqoaKuyj4

This looks like it's exactly what I wanted, actually. Make a bunch of sequences, chain their order in the Song Mode. Then you can export as audio, or export as a totally new sequence, whatever. I'm not sure why people would complain about that, in terms of an arranger. In any event, it's super-close to the MMT-8 way.

The only thing I don't see is the ability to mute tracks on a per-step basis. The only parameters appear to be tempo and number of repeats. That can be worked around by copying the sequence, in the worst case, and I still have much to learn.

Anyway, the odds of me buying an MPC just went up quite a bit to like 85%.

[LPF83]

This looks like it's exactly what I wanted, actually. Make a bunch of sequences, chain their order in the Song Mode. Then you can export as audio, or export as a totally new sequence, whatever. I'm not sure why people would complain about that, in terms of an arranger. In any event, it's super-close to the MMT-8 way.

Not having ever used an MMT-8, and just glancing at it, my instinct is that the MPC goes way beyond that in terms of overall functionally.  About song mode, I haven't used it that much myself, but most of the complaints I've heard are just that MPC users want something more like the image/discussion at this thread: https://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=1829092 ....

... which, I guess maybe the Akai Force attempts to address more directly.  I think the MPC is fine the way it is, actually.  One of the things I enjoy about mine is that the workflow feels different enough from the normal computer/DAW setup I'm used to, that it gets me thinking about music in different ways -- and what I end up creating turns out differently than when I'm making music in my full-size setup.

[chysn]

most of the complaints I've heard are just that MPC users want something more like the image/discussion at this thread: https://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=1829092 ....

Apparently that suggestion is Force-like, but it seems unnecessarily complicated to me. Although Song Mode could be fleshed out a bit, it looks perfectly serviceable for my kind of composing which tends, after all, toward an instrumental song structure.

Not having ever used an MMT-8, and just glancing at it, my instinct is that the MPC goes way beyond that in terms of overall functionally.

No doubt. The MMT-8 is a MIDI-only sequencer, and from the late 80s. It basically became an extension of my brain when I used it. I'd happily use one today, but if my goal is to do everything with a Prophet 5 sans computer, I need audio recording and MIDI sequencing in one box. Sampling will be icing on the cake.

[LPF83]

most of the complaints I've heard are just that MPC users want something more like the image/discussion at this thread: https://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=1829092 ....

Apparently that suggestion is Force-like, but it seems unnecessarily complicated to me. Although Song Mode could be fleshed out a bit, it looks perfectly serviceable for my kind of composing which tends, after all, toward an instrumental song structure.

Not having ever used an MMT-8, and just glancing at it, my instinct is that the MPC goes way beyond that in terms of overall functionally.

No doubt. The MMT-8 is a MIDI-only sequencer, and from the late 80s. It basically became an extension of my brain when I used it. I'd happily use one today, but if my goal is to do everything with a Prophet 5 sans computer, I need audio recording and MIDI sequencing in one box. Sampling will be icing on the cake.

It is great at capturing MIDI, and as long as you don't need more than 8 audio tracks you'd probably be happy with it.  For me though, audio is where the inflection point is that I feel the need to move my ideas to the DAW*, because I'm used to working with audio clips in a linear workflow.  I haven't even tried to copy portion of audio from one track to another on the MPC, I assume it can probably be done but I haven't used it that way.  In this video, Ben Correll talks a bit about wanting that linear workflow in order to make the MPC a full production machine: 

https://youtu.be/EqTiTg6IrTk

* Oddly enough, I still haven't actually exported a project from my MPC to the DAW.  The way it's worked for me so far is I get an idea for chord progression or melody going on the MPC and refine the idea and then physically walk into my studio room to quickly recreate it in the DAW on a 61 key keyboard while it's fresh in my mind.  One of these days I do plan to experiment with saving the project bones to the SD card and taking the card onto the PC for import, and maybe even experimenting with connecting the MPC directly to the studio and using it as an instrument in itself.  But for now I'm enjoying that separation of "compact setup" where I can power everything up with a single power switch (MPC providing power to keyboard and Roland SH4d)... the MPC is very good at "rapid creation", so having that instant-on ability is huge for me.

[LoboLives]

I must admit, the Force looks more and more tempting each time I look into it.

[chysn]

Okay, well, I bought an MPC One+. After a couple solid hours with it, I'm pretty sure I love it. I was able to accomplish:

(1) Recording a MIDI sequence from the Prophet 5 via Bluetooth MIDI
(2) Recording this sequence to an audio track
(3) Recording the same sequence to a second audio track with another Prophet 5 sound
(4) Recording a second sequence
(5) Using Song mode to create a composition with multiple sequences

I know I've just scratched the surface of the thing, but now I know that it'll handle my non-negotiable musical tasks, and the workflow is fast and fun, and the device is sufficiently responsive. It's more enjoyable (for me) than using Ableton. I was able to do everything without referring to any external resources, although external resources will eventually help me go further.

I'm glad I waited for the One+. Bluetooth is well worth it (for me), and of course I always like red everything. Additionally, I get one free plug-in with my purchase! I'm sure I'll eventually get more plug-ins, but I'm deciding between Stage Piano and OPx-4. Air Jura and Mini D are tempting, of course, but I really don't need a VA, what with an Actual Prophet Effing 5 sitting right there. I like the idea of having a decent digital synth, but my immediate composition need is for a piano.

I kind of wish they had a "stupid generic 90s ROMpler" plug-in. I'm going to try a trial of OPx-4, but pretty sure I'm going with Stage Piano.

@LPF83, thank you for your generous guidance on this, in answering all my random questions. I'm really happy with this decision!

[LPF83]

Okay, well, I bought an MPC One+. After a couple solid hours with it, I'm pretty sure I love it. I was able to accomplish:

(1) Recording a MIDI sequence from the Prophet 5 via Bluetooth MIDI
(2) Recording this sequence to an audio track
(3) Recording the same sequence to a second audio track with another Prophet 5 sound
(4) Recording a second sequence
(5) Using Song mode to create a composition with multiple sequences

I know I've just scratched the surface of the thing, but now I know that it'll handle my non-negotiable musical tasks, and the workflow is fast and fun, and the device is sufficiently responsive. It's more enjoyable (for me) than using Ableton. I was able to do everything without referring to any external resources, although external resources will eventually help me go further.

I'm glad I waited for the One+. Bluetooth is well worth it (for me), and of course I always like red everything. Additionally, I get one free plug-in with my purchase! I'm sure I'll eventually get more plug-ins, but I'm deciding between Stage Piano and OPx-4. Air Jura and Mini D are tempting, of course, but I really don't need a VA, what with an Actual Prophet Effing 5 sitting right there. I like the idea of having a decent digital synth, but my immediate composition need is for a piano.

I kind of wish they had a "stupid generic 90s ROMpler" plug-in. I'm going to try a trial of OPx-4, but pretty sure I'm going with Stage Piano.

@LPF83, thank you for your generous guidance on this, in answering all my random questions. I'm really happy with this decision!

Congrats on joining the exclusive insider-sequential-mpc-club   I'm not sure how many others here have one of these, but yeah my initial reaction was like yours -- super fast to get ideas down, instant love.  I initially bought mine for travel purposes, not yet knowing how useful it was for everything else.

About the 90's ROMpler, I'm not sure they have a plugin yet that directly addresses that need, but I'm pretty confident in saying that they probably will cover all bases at some point at their current pace -- I see nothing but more options emerging on the verizon in terms of plug-ins, and what's great about the ones so far from AIR is that they feel so right at home on the touch screen and integrate well into the whole MPC vibe -- this is something that various plugins on a PC sometimes get right and sometimes not. 

Short term, an option you could consider that doesn't cost a lot is a Roland JD-08, if the original JD-800 sound is your thing.  At least, I think of that as a quintessential 90's synth.

[chysn]

Short term, an option you could consider that doesn't cost a lot is a Roland JD-08, if the original JD-800 sound is your thing.  At least, I think of that as a quintessential 90's synth.

It seems like the Hype plug-in covers a lot of those bases, including meh pianos.

I did get the Stage Piano plug-in with my free voucher. The Activate Plug-Ins screen shows a green "Activate" button next to the Stage Piano plug-in, but when I touch it, it says that my license isn't valid. So that kind of sucks. I get the very same message when I try to install trials. I've even logged out of my account and back in a couple times, and my InMusic account shows that I own it. So I'm not sure what's going on there. Nobody on the internet has a solution, so I'll keep trying. I'm sure that if somebody pays $100 for something, they usually expect to get it!

[LoboLives]

What about Fabric XL for your Rompler needs?

[chysn]

What about Fabric XL for your Rompler needs?

I’ll take a look. Fabric was not one of the free options. And if they’re going to have licensing difficulties, I won’t even consider spending more on plug-ins and just use what I have, which is already formidable.

[LPF83]

Short term, an option you could consider that doesn't cost a lot is a Roland JD-08, if the original JD-800 sound is your thing.  At least, I think of that as a quintessential 90's synth.

It seems like the Hype plug-in covers a lot of those bases, including meh pianos.

I did get the Stage Piano plug-in with my free voucher. The Activate Plug-Ins screen shows a green "Activate" button next to the Stage Piano plug-in, but when I touch it, it says that my license isn't valid. So that kind of sucks. I get the very same message when I try to install trials. I've even logged out of my account and back in a couple times, and my InMusic account shows that I own it. So I'm not sure what's going on there. Nobody on the internet has a solution, so I'll keep trying. I'm sure that if somebody pays $100 for something, they usually expect to get it!

Of the existing available plug-ins, Hype is indeed probably closest to a 90s VA synth (Virus, JP8080, etc), and it's decent but I don't use it a lot.  They didn't have the free plug-in offer when I bought my Live II, probably because the hardware itself was discounted so I didn't redeem a voucher, so I didn't have that particular pain.  I did have a minor glitch that resulted in a duplicate purchase and was very pleased with how good (and fast) tech support was, so I'd suggest reaching out to them at support@inmusicstore.com to solve the activation issue.  For the most part, subsequent plug in purchases have been just a matter of buying at the site, and tapping activate on the device screen.

[LPF83]

What about Fabric XL for your Rompler needs?

I’ll take a look. Fabric was not one of the free options. And if they’re going to have licensing difficulties, I won’t even consider spending more on plug-ins and just use what I have, which is already formidable.

I think the issue with the voucher is probably non-typical.  I have had voucher redemption issues like that with other vendors in the past where it took some extra effort to fully get what is offered, I'm not sure why it seems to throw a monkey wrench into the machine to redeem a code, but I'm never surprised when it does.

[chysn]

I think the issue with the voucher is probably non-typical.  I have had voucher redemption issues like that with other vendors in the past where it took some extra effort to fully get what is offered, I'm not sure why it seems to throw a monkey wrench into the machine to redeem a code, but I'm never surprised when it does.

Yeah, I tried it once again in the morning, and it activated and downloaded just fine. Maybe there was just a delay in setting up accounts. I really like Stage Piano. I would have made do with the sampled piano in Hype, but the models in Stage Piano are miles better, appropriate for recording.

I also got the 10-day trial of Jura, which was something I couldn't do yesterday. I can see the appeal, but I don't think I'll buy it. It's super bright and punchy, and that's pretty much all it does. It sounds good, but it doesn't sound like I remember Junos sounding.

Meanwhile, Hype is growing on me. It sits there and says, "I'm a digital synth, what'cha gonna do about it?" It has a pretty wide scope. My next purchase will most likely be OPx4.

[LPF83]

I think the issue with the voucher is probably non-typical.  I have had voucher redemption issues like that with other vendors in the past where it took some extra effort to fully get what is offered, I'm not sure why it seems to throw a monkey wrench into the machine to redeem a code, but I'm never surprised when it does.

Yeah, I tried it once again in the morning, and it activated and downloaded just fine. Maybe there was just a delay in setting up accounts. I really like Stage Piano. I would have made do with the sampled piano in Hype, but the models in Stage Piano are miles better, appropriate for recording.

I also got the 10-day trial of Jura, which was something I couldn't do yesterday. I can see the appeal, but I don't think I'll buy it. It's super bright and punchy, and that's pretty much all it does. It sounds good, but it doesn't sound like I remember Junos sounding.

Meanwhile, Hype is growing on me. It sits there and says, "I'm a digital synth, what'cha gonna do about it?" It has a pretty wide scope. My next purchase will most likely be OPx4.

I got the impression Hype, as you've described is unapologetically digital.  I haven't used it a lot... not because of the sound which I thought was good on the presets...but because of the overall workflow (and I didn't invest a lot of time so I may be wrong about some things here).  For example, you apparently have to commit to the type of patch you're going to create at init time.  You can't just start a new patch with analog oscillators, then later swap out osc2 for a sample, which feels limiting compared to what I'm used to.  Also, if I start with an analog type patch, I couldn't see that I can modulate the pulse width of a square wave.  Those are things that matter to me during sound design, but doesn't stop me from reaching for it for some of the presets when I'm just sketching out some ideas.  Jura, for my usage is in a different league, as it behaves more according to the typical subtractive analog workflow that I prefer, and I think it captures the Juno vibe well enough for my needs, it is still my favorite as far as synth plug-ins on the MPC go.  I haven't really put it head to toe against the System 8 or JU-06 (which are considered some of the better options for an authentic Juno sound) to see how it fares, but I was impressed with the sound enough to be left wondering if I even need the JU-06 anymore (since I bought it as a compact companion synth for the MPC).

[chysn]

I haven't evaluated the plug-ins for their ease of sound design. I'll certainly do some sound design on the MPC, but probably not lots of it. I do agree that the Jura way is pretty nice, though, in how its parameters are laid out. The MPC One+'s screen size and interface would necessitate either really simple synths, or tons of patience for tabbing around.

[chysn]

If I had known how perfect the MPC would be for my musical vision, I might have opted for the Live II instead of the One+. The battery, speaker, form factor, and second internal drive aren't compelling to be individually, but in aggregate, I'd find them useful.

Theoretically, it's not too late to take advantage of Guitar Center's 14-day no-questions-asked return policy. But seriously, I'm happy enough with the One+. Also the very thought of going through all that retail rigamarole fills me with a profound sense of boredom that I can't quite explain. Anyway, I've grown fond of this panic-button-red thing, and my view is that an MPC One+ is probably the biggest bang-for-the-buck in music production.

Once I was satisfied that it would do what I bought it for, I started playing around with things I never thought I'd appreciate, like the XY pad, resampling, the Looper, Clip programs. This weekend, I'm going to spend some time with CV.

Right now I'm at the point where I think all I need is Finale, my Prophet 5, and an MPC.