Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?

Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« on: January 28, 2023, 05:04:57 PM »
I own the P6 and the OB 6 and while they each of course have a distinct charm, I still often question if I really need both of them, especially since I'm mostly a hobbyist - and space is at a premium in my little bedroom studio. But when I try to decide which I'd part with, I just can't decide.
In comes the Trigon! As soon as I found out the filter is switchable between 2 and 4 pole modes, a light bulb went off: could this single synth essentially replace both of the others? I know it's a different filter from either, and again, it too has it's own sound, but c'mon. They're all kinda varied flavors of the same basic form factor and architecture.
Could the 4 pole mode basically cover P6 territory while the 2 pole mode covers OB 6 territory, recognizing there are some differences?
I know not many have had their hands on one yet since it's so new, but if anyone has experience with all three, or if you want to just join in the totally unsubstantiated conjecture like I'm doing, I'd love to hear from you. :)

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2023, 10:39:48 PM »
My personal take on it:
 
First, it doesn't sound distinctive enough to justify replacing my OB6 which I love the sound of.
Second, if it had 8 voices and a five-octave keyboard, maybe I'd be perhaps tempted.
Third, no, it doesn't sound like a Memorymoog. It sounds like another Sequential synth.

So, for someone who doesn't already have a P6 or OB6, it can be interesting.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 10:41:46 PM by AlainHubert »
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2023, 01:00:52 PM »
Switchable 2 / 4 pole filter?

8 voices?

5 octave keyboard?

Sounds like someone needs a Prophet 08!

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2023, 10:40:04 PM »
Switchable 2 / 4 pole filter?

8 voices?

5 octave keyboard?

Sounds like someone needs a Prophet 08!

I've already got a 16 voice Prophet REV2 and don't really like it. It's definitely not a Prophet 6 or OB6, or even Trigon 6 as far as sound quality is concerned. Its 2 pole filter mode is useless (resonnance quasi inexistant).

That's why I said that the Trigon 6 should have been a Trigon 8...
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2023, 02:22:03 AM »
It was just a tongue in cheek joke really :)

Though I will always disagree about ‘sound quality’ (whatever that means), I love the Prophet 08. I also love the 2 pole mode on it!

In regards the original post, we live in a world now where there are so many incredible choices for synths. Lots of synths cover a lot of ground, some are a little more specific in what they do.. but most good polysynths can do most things with the right programming. There is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ answer really, my advice is to do as much research as possible and really think about what you are after, and of course play with a potential new synth as much as you can before buying, if possible - especially if it’s to replace existing instruments.

LPF83

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Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2023, 04:57:52 AM »
I've already got a 16 voice Prophet REV2 and don't really like it. It's definitely not a Prophet 6 or OB6, or even Trigon 6 as far as sound quality is concerned. Its 2 pole filter mode is useless (resonnance quasi inexistant).

As an owner of 3 out of 4 above, I totally agree the sound of the Rev2 differs greatly from the P6 and OB6 (which also differ greatly from each other), and compared side by side on a per sound basis, the P6 and OB6 do impress my ear more immediately.  But the Rev2 is a DCO synth...  I think of it as more of a modern Juno than a Prophet.  DCO synths excel in very specific areas, one of which is versatility and playing well with other synths in a mix.   I think the Rev2 is brilliant at this, let's not even get into the voice count (on the 16 voice version), the modulation options, the 5 octave keybed which feels amazing (including the AT implementation), etc.   But what puzzles me is the fact that you've mentioned multiple times you don't like your Rev2...   Why would you not sell it?

To roll a side topic back into the subject of the thread, re:  can a Trigon replace a P6 or OB6.....

... I'm going to say that probably depends on what you want from a 6 voice VCO poly.  The envelopes+filter combinations on both the P6 and OB6 can produce extremely punchy bass sounds.  I rarely hear the same kind of sound coming from any ladder filter synth, and I have not yet heard what I would call punchy synth bass coming from a Trigon 6.  That's not to say it's not capable, it just means I haven't heard these sounds coming from it yet.  To me (and so far), the Trigon 6 sounds great, but it's a different sound than the P6 or OB6.  Combined that with the fact that ladder filters have different fundamental characteristics than Prophet or Oberheim style filters, and also that Dave believed in "each synth having their own personality" and designed the Trigon 6 to supplement the P6 and OB6 (not replace them), I would have to say that more than likely the Trigon 6 is not a suitable replacement for the P6/OB6. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 04:59:48 AM by LPF83 »
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2023, 07:27:16 AM »
Probably.

But why do manufacturers persist with keyboards? How many keyboards can we accommodate! Desktops are surely the way forward - at the end of this particular 'golden era' of synths?

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2023, 09:12:03 AM »
I've already got a 16 voice Prophet REV2 and don't really like it. It's definitely not a Prophet 6 or OB6, or even Trigon 6 as far as sound quality is concerned. Its 2 pole filter mode is useless (resonnance quasi inexistant).

The envelopes+filter combinations on both the P6 and OB6 can produce extremely punchy bass sounds.  I rarely hear the same kind of sound coming from any ladder filter synth

..apart from the scores of classic records which utilised any Moog bass sounds from the 60s onwards! :)

I haven't played on a Trigon, nor do I plan on getting one, but I would bet it can make great bass sounds, or 'punchy' bass sounds (whatever that means anyway). What would make you think it can't?

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2023, 09:14:14 AM »
Probably.

But why do manufacturers persist with keyboards? How many keyboards can we accommodate! Desktops are surely the way forward - at the end of this particular 'golden era' of synths?

I have to strongly disagree. I think it's great to be offered both. For me personally, I much prefer having a standalone instrument I can take with me to a practice, a gig or just a friend's house for a jam!

LPF83

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Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2023, 09:55:47 AM »
I've already got a 16 voice Prophet REV2 and don't really like it. It's definitely not a Prophet 6 or OB6, or even Trigon 6 as far as sound quality is concerned. Its 2 pole filter mode is useless (resonnance quasi inexistant).

The envelopes+filter combinations on both the P6 and OB6 can produce extremely punchy bass sounds.  I rarely hear the same kind of sound coming from any ladder filter synth

..apart from the scores of classic records which utilised any Moog bass sounds from the 60s onwards! :)

I haven't played on a Trigon, nor do I plan on getting one, but I would bet it can make great bass sounds, or 'punchy' bass sounds (whatever that means anyway). What would make you think it can't?

Most of the bass I hear coming out of the Model D in the 70s doesn't qualify for my definition of punchy.  Honestly I think the first Moogs I ever heard that sounded punchy like a ProOne or Juno60 were probably the Multimoog or Moog Source.

Don't confuse that with "good" bass..  A lot of 70s / 80s funk had good bass, but either got its snap via sampling, layering with something else, or it just didn't have the snap I'm referring to.

I'm not saying the Trigon 6 can't do it.. just that I haven't heard examples yet.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2023, 01:39:48 PM »
What’s a ‘punchy’ bass sound? It may mean different things to different people! Could you give an example?

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2023, 01:47:08 PM »
Probably.

But why do manufacturers persist with keyboards? How many keyboards can we accommodate! Desktops are surely the way forward - at the end of this particular 'golden era' of synths?

I have to strongly disagree. I think it's great to be offered both. For me personally, I much prefer having a standalone instrument I can take with me to a practice, a gig or just a friend's house for a jam!

I’d go a step further, I really wish they’d offer their keyboards in a third variant with at least a 61-key keyboard. The main reason I never bought any of the 6 series is due to the short keyboard. And no, I don’t really want to hook up a desktop to a master keyboard if at all possible, I’d like a self-contained instrument.

LPF83

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Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2023, 04:34:00 PM »
What’s a ‘punchy’ bass sound? It may mean different things to different people! Could you give an example?

Punchy may indeed mean different things to different folks..  many may consider "punch" to be "prominent" in the mix.  But the actual sound "synth bass" typically means a certain category of sound, at least according to the presets on most synths.  Usually if you dial in a sound labeled synth bass it's a very staccato (fast attack, nearly non-existent release) that is almost like a low end pluck.  It's usually in and out fast, and gives rhythm to the track more than really low end presence.  And yes compression and EQ techniques can take any bass sound and make it punchier, but some synths just tend to do it really well.  It comes down to certain characteristics of the envelopes (which the Model D to my knowledge was never known for having particular fast ones) as well as the filter itself.

For example, the Prophet 10 is not what I would consider a super punchy "synth bass" synth.  It can do it, and it has a few sweet spots where the oscillators can be combined in a certain way to give it a certain special snap, but it's primarily better at other things.  Contrast that with the AS-1 (which to me is the modern ProOne)...  It just BEGS to do this out of the box, you almost have to tame it.  There's no searching for sweet spots if you want punchy bass from that synth.

I just reached for some of the first examples that came to mind, not necessarily the best examples (and also YT may not convey the original punch very well).

Smalltown Boy (ProOne I believe)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc

Don't Go (ProOne)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sQGwDeambg

Everything she wants (Juno60)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf_Lwe6p-Cg

Also go through some of Luke Millions videos, he does a good job of getting snappy bass out of many of his synths, especially the Multimoog.. most of them don't seem to come off his Model D:
https://www.youtube.com/@lukemillionmusic/videos
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 04:53:44 PM by LPF83 »
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2023, 06:00:29 PM »
Snappy is the new punchy!
Moog maybe does deep more than it does punchy, if we're being perfectly objective here. I've got a Pro One, a P5 and a Prophet 6 - any of those can land a snappy punch, but the Pro One is my go-to for 80s 8th-note bass. When I want the lowness of tone, though, my Grandmother gets the gig.

LPF83

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Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2023, 06:07:17 PM »
Snappy is the new punchy!
Moog maybe does deep more than it does punchy, if we're being perfectly objective here. I've got a Pro One, a P5 and a Prophet 6 - any of those can land a snappy punch, but the Pro One is my go-to for 80s 8th-note bass. When I want the lowness of tone, though, my Grandmother gets the gig.

I always associate Moog with deep, and creamy / oozy sounding bass, or more commonly the "funk bass" sound (which doesn't really need to be as punchy as it is expressive).  It's not that Moog synths aren't capable of punchy, it's just not their primary forte.  I can get some pretty punchy sounds out of my Slim Phatty, it's just that it takes some menu diving and tweaking to find a particular sweet spot that other synths do so naturally.  I'm envious of your Pro One...  but yeah, P5/10 can do it with some work, the Prophet 6 is exceptionally good at it for a poly synth, and the AS-1 is the master and what I imagine a Pro One is like.  Which is strange because an AS-1 was supposed to be just a P6 with a single voice, but somehow through the rest of the hardware and differences in FX it emerged as more than that, as a bass synth.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2023, 01:05:54 AM »
What’s a ‘punchy’ bass sound? It may mean different things to different people! Could you give an example?

Punchy may indeed mean different things to different folks..  many may consider "punch" to be "prominent" in the mix.  But the actual sound "synth bass" typically means a certain category of sound, at least according to the presets on most synths.  Usually if you dial in a sound labeled synth bass it's a very staccato (fast attack, nearly non-existent release) that is almost like a low end pluck.  It's usually in and out fast, and gives rhythm to the track more than really low end presence.  And yes compression and EQ techniques can take any bass sound and make it punchier, but some synths just tend to do it really well.  It comes down to certain characteristics of the envelopes (which the Model D to my knowledge was never known for having particular fast ones) as well as the filter itself.

For example, the Prophet 10 is not what I would consider a super punchy "synth bass" synth.  It can do it, and it has a few sweet spots where the oscillators can be combined in a certain way to give it a certain special snap, but it's primarily better at other things.  Contrast that with the AS-1 (which to me is the modern ProOne)...  It just BEGS to do this out of the box, you almost have to tame it.  There's no searching for sweet spots if you want punchy bass from that synth.

I just reached for some of the first examples that came to mind, not necessarily the best examples (and also YT may not convey the original punch very well).

Smalltown Boy (ProOne I believe)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc

Don't Go (ProOne)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sQGwDeambg

Everything she wants (Juno60)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf_Lwe6p-Cg

Also go through some of Luke Millions videos, he does a good job of getting snappy bass out of many of his synths, especially the Multimoog.. most of them don't seem to come off his Model D:
https://www.youtube.com/@lukemillionmusic/videos

If that's the kind of thing..how about Donna Summer - I Feel Love? Literally the first thing that came to mind, created on a Moog (with a ladder filter).

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2023, 01:30:48 AM »
I've already got a 16 voice Prophet REV2 and don't really like it. It's definitely not a Prophet 6 or OB6, or even Trigon 6 as far as sound quality is concerned. Its 2 pole filter mode is useless (resonnance quasi inexistant).

The envelopes+filter combinations on both the P6 and OB6 can produce extremely punchy bass sounds.  I rarely hear the same kind of sound coming from any ladder filter synth

..apart from the scores of classic records which utilised any Moog bass sounds from the 60s onwards! :)

I haven't played on a Trigon, nor do I plan on getting one, but I would bet it can make great bass sounds, or 'punchy' bass sounds (whatever that means anyway). What would make you think it can't?

Most of the bass I hear coming out of the Model D in the 70s doesn't qualify for my definition of punchy.  Honestly I think the first Moogs I ever heard that sounded punchy like a ProOne or Juno60 were probably the Multimoog or Moog Source.

Don't confuse that with "good" bass..  A lot of 70s / 80s funk had good bass, but either got its snap via sampling, layering with something else, or it just didn't have the snap I'm referring to.

I'm not saying the Trigon 6 can't do it.. just that I haven't heard examples yet.

..also worth mentioning that both the Multimoog and the Moog Source had ladder filters!

LPF83

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Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2023, 04:39:48 AM »
..also worth mentioning that both the Multimoog and the Moog Source had ladder filters!

Alongside snappy envelopes....and this is why I knew I was going to regret trying to post examples.  Anyway my point is I haven't heard snappy bass out of a Trigon 6 yet.  It's possible it can do it, I just haven't heard it yet and I've found it to not be a strength of ladder filter synths.  Whether it is a strength or not is completely unrelated to whether ladder filter synths can be made to sound snappy/punchy.  But I'm not going to get into an endless debate about that.. you can find plenty of that on Gearspace.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2023, 04:53:11 AM »
Probably.

But why do manufacturers persist with keyboards? How many keyboards can we accommodate! Desktops are surely the way forward - at the end of this particular 'golden era' of synths?

I have to strongly disagree. I think it's great to be offered both. For me personally, I much prefer having a standalone instrument I can take with me to a practice, a gig or just a friend's house for a jam!

I’d go a step further, I really wish they’d offer their keyboards in a third variant with at least a 61-key keyboard. The main reason I never bought any of the 6 series is due to the short keyboard. And no, I don’t really want to hook up a desktop to a master keyboard if at all possible, I’d like a self-contained instrument.

Yeah. I get that those white and black things are convenient for data entry to the synth but the £700 premium each time plus the space required is my issue. The synth itself is complete. Fwiw, I think the Trigon project could have been a bit more radical.

Re: Could the Trigon replace both the P6 and OB 6?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2023, 05:49:02 AM »
..also worth mentioning that both the Multimoog and the Moog Source had ladder filters!

Alongside snappy envelopes....and this is why I knew I was going to regret trying to post examples.  Anyway my point is I haven't heard snappy bass out of a Trigon 6 yet.  It's possible it can do it, I just haven't heard it yet and I've found it to not be a strength of ladder filter synths.  Whether it is a strength or not is completely unrelated to whether ladder filter synths can be made to sound snappy/punchy.  But I'm not going to get into an endless debate about that.. you can find plenty of that on Gearspace.

Earlier on you said "I rarely hear the same kind of sound coming from any ladder filter synth, and I have not yet heard what I would call punchy synth bass coming from a Trigon 6" in answer to the original question (which this is all about). I asked for examples because I wasn't sure exactly what you meant by 'punchy' bass and I wasn't convinced that simply the fact of a synth having a ladder filter this would mean it is not able to produce that kind of sound. I understand though that when discussing sound in words there is lots of grey, and lots of subjectivity - I also don't want to get into an endless debate about particular sounds either - so all good! :)