Line 6 Helix as Synth effects unit....

Shaw · « **on:** August 07, 2016, 06:02:04 PM »

Curious to hear you guys thoughts on using a Line 6 Helix as a synth effects unit... I've been thinking about synth effects for a while, and this came to mind because it accepts line level inputs. And it could be used without any amp modeling at all -- or use a synth friendly amp model like the Roland Jazz Chorus.

Curious to hear what you guys think... Or whether there are other effects units I should consider. And yes, I did consider my own advice (EVENTIDE H9!), but I was thinking more of a multi-effects unit (3 EVENTIDE H9s!)

Thanks in advance for your wisdom!

Paul Dither · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2016, 07:31:39 PM »

I have no experience with the Line 6 Helix, but it certainly looks like a beast - well built and all that. I didn't watch out for guitar effects in the past couple of years, or effect boards that have been manufactured with guitars in mind in the first place, except maybe for the Pigtronix Infinity Looper, which is still on my list.

At first I was wondering where the stereo inputs are, but then I learned that returns 1/2 and 3/4 can act as stereo input blocks, which is good. What I would personally like about a box like this is that you can switch everything with your feet. It's not precisely what you'd call affordable although it offers a lot. The thing is, though, that most of the stuff is aimed at guitarists and I'm not sure how much you would profit from that unit as a synth player. You might not need it at all for your Prophet-6 and OB-6 at least. Given that also the Pro 2 and the Prophet 12 provide distortion and delays, I would maybe look out for a more specialized unit for reverbs especially, just like the H9 for example, which also offers nice delays.

Together with a synth, the sound might also get a bit too mushy in conjunction with the Line 6 Helix. I mean, think of how relatively simple the clean output signal of a guitar is compared to a synth patch.

In the end it of course depends on how much of an effects nerd you are, meaning whether you like effects of all kinds (Flanger, Chorus, Distortion, Overdrive, Phaser, Pitch Shifter, Ring Mod, Fuzz, Tremolo, Uni-Vibe, Leslie, etc.), or if you're mainly looking for selected types of effects.

I personally am very plug-in based when it comes to global effects like Delays and Reverbs, since my stuff is always set up in conjunction with Ableton Live anyway. So there I use Valhalla DSP stuff (Room, VintageVerb, and Shimmer), and u-he's Satin as a tape echo emulation that also does nice choruses and flangers. My only current hardware effect box is Moog's MF-104 Analog Delay. The only stuff I'd be interested to add (apart from the above mentioned looper) would be either a H9 too, or a Strymon BigSky, and this little fellow: http://www.knasmusic.com/products/moisturizer/moisturizer.php

BobTheDog · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2016, 11:28:10 PM »

I have a Helix here, the floor one.

I have not run any synths through it yet.

It's a good box of tricks, I would highly recommend it for guitar use.

But....

The individual parts are not the best in class, for example the amp modelling is not up to the standard of the Kemper and the FX are no where near the standard of Eventide stuff.

What you do get is a fantastic integrated package, editing is fantastic, actually a joy. Setting things up to be controlled by the switches/pedal is also pretty powerful. I haven't tried setting it up from external midi yet but that also looks pretty powerful.

You can have 4 individual chains of FX each with it's own input and output. If you use the return pairs as inputs then two of these FX chains can be stereo in to stereo out. So you can actually treat it as four separate FX units.

The Guitar in and Aux in are guitar level with the guitar in allowing you to change the input impedance.

The send/returns can be set as guitar or line level, 4 in and 4 out.

There is a Mic in with switchable phantom power.

SPDIF in and out, 44.1K to 96K

You also get 3 stereo inputs/outputs via USB.

Two expression pedal inputs are there as well, and of course the midi control.

So the connectivity is very good!

The FX units though are not great, they are just not up to the standard of "good" units or "good" plugins, the Pitch stuff is laughably bad when compared to Eventide gear, actually all the FX is pretty bad when compared to Eventide stuff but then for what you get in the Helix price wise it smashes the Eventide gear.

I'm not saying that the fX is not useable it certainly is but it doesn't give you that "wow" factor.

So the Helix is a great unit because of it's combination of parts rather than the parts being fantastic.

Razmo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2016, 11:49:15 PM »

I have never considered Line 6 to be honest... but it certainly looks flexible.

I think it's a bit hard to judge on this because people tend to have different opinions on FX as anything else. Personaly I want a really good sounding reverb, since I'm into ambient... that does not leave many options, especially in the low-price market, so I almost always use a Lexicon or T.C. Electronics.

Another thing is, that I personally do not like the guitar-pedal format. If it takes Line Level, it's a lot better because I've tried several times to get guitar pedals working with synths, and while it is certainly possible, it's almost certainly always a noisy experience (but that's mostly because the FX I want is analog oldies of course).

But I don'r see why you should not be able to use the Line 6 with synths... it looks flexible, and if you don't mind the guitar-pedal format... try it.

The next time I'm to have an external FX unit it will most likely be a Lexicon PCM92...

BobTheDog · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2016, 11:51:57 PM »

Theres a rack as well:

Shaw · « **Reply #5 on:** August 08, 2016, 10:11:44 AM »

Thanks for the input fellas... I had a Helix, but traded it for a Kemper because the Kemper Amp Models sound better (to my ears anyway).
The Helix effects were cool in that you could arrange them in so many flexible ways, but Bob was right... the effects were generally "good" but not on the "Eventide level". And when I think back on the Helix, the thing I really liked most about it was the flexibility of routing --- sadly enough, the sound quality of the amps or effects should be the thing I liked most.

And for the money, I could get 3 Eventide H9 Cores -- since I have an H9 Max in my guitar setup, all three Cores would have access to all of the H9 algorithms as soon as I register them under my account. I don't think I need 3, but that would easily be more than enough mush (today's Ditherism) for a synth signal.

.... and I've come full circle. Taking my own advice: get an H9 or the best Eventide box you can afford...

Which leads me to the next question... For the Helix money, I could be looking at 3 H9s or an Eventide Eclipse. Anyone have thoughts on that choice?

Thanks again for everyone's valued input!

Shaw

BobTheDog · « **Reply #6 on:** August 08, 2016, 12:21:05 PM »

In the UK you could get nearly 6 H9 cores for the price of an eclipse!

That's a lot more dsp power.

Shaw · « **Reply #7 on:** August 08, 2016, 12:32:02 PM »

Quote from: BobTheDog on August 08, 2016, 12:21:05 PM

In the UK you could get nearly 6 H9 cores for the price of an eclipse!

That's a lot more dsp power.

I'm comparing the excellent condition, second-hand market... An H9 Core goes for $300 to $350. An Eclipse could be snagged for around $1200.

3 H9s would be more DSP, but also more limited types of effects... Whereas, an Eclipse produces more interesting effects, but your more limited in terms of the number of effects.

Hmm....

BobTheDog · « **Reply #8 on:** August 08, 2016, 01:18:25 PM »

The Eclipse is a good machine but it's a pain in the arse to program. It does sound amazing though and I guess offers a lot more control than you would get in a H9.

Might be worth you downloading the two manuals for it and having a good read.

Shaw · « **Reply #9 on:** August 08, 2016, 01:24:27 PM »

Quote from: BobTheDog on August 08, 2016, 01:18:25 PM

The Eclipse is a good machine but it's a pain in the arse to program. It does sound amazing though and I guess offers a lot more control than you would get in a H9.

Might be worth you downloading the two manuals for it and having a good read.

Already on it...
https://s3.amazonaws.com/com.eventide.downloads/Product+Manuals/Eclipse_Alogrithm.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/com.eventide.downloads/Product+Manuals/Eclipse_User.pdf

BobTheDog · « **Reply #10 on:** August 08, 2016, 01:30:02 PM »

Good luck, I've had mine a few years and it's still head scratching stuff some of the time!

Shaw · « **Reply #11 on:** August 08, 2016, 01:37:58 PM »

Quote from: BobTheDog on August 08, 2016, 01:30:02 PM

Good luck, I've had mine a few years and it's still head scratching stuff some of the time!

That's the best endorsement I've ever heard!

Shaw · « **Reply #12 on:** August 08, 2016, 05:30:59 PM »

Did some reading....

I'm leading toward the Eclipse for a few reasons... The H9 has 48 algorithms currently available. Each Eclipse has about 104 algorithms. And the Eclipse can run 2 algorithms with 5 different routing options (including the ability to cross fade between the 2 algorithms). Also the Eclipse has ADAT in and out which makes it very convenient for my studio setup. And even where the two units have similar algorithms (Vintage Delays, for example), the Eclipse version has many more parameters than the H9 algorithm -- with the Vintage Delays it's 20 parameters for the Eclipse and 10 parameters on the H9.

And 2 of these algorithms offer more smear / mush than a synth should need.

Have I missed something about the H9 in this analysis?

Thanks.

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #13 on:** August 09, 2016, 11:43:10 AM »

I've never used a Line 6 Helix and know nothing about it. But just taking a look at its interface, I wouldn't care for it. I much prefer a direct knobby device that can be placed at eye level. That's why I may get a Lexicon MX200, rather than another MX300 - the interface. Even the H9 is far too scanty for me.

Shaw · « **Reply #14 on:** August 09, 2016, 12:09:14 PM »

Quote from: Sacred Synthesis on August 09, 2016, 11:43:10 AM

I've never used a Line 6 Helix and know nothing about it. But just taking a look at its interface, I wouldn't care for it. I much prefer a direct knobby device that can be placed at eye level. That's why I may get a Lexicon MX200, rather than another MX300 - the interface. Even the H9 is far too scanty for me.

You probably wouldn't like the Eventide Eclipse either... 1 knob.

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #15 on:** August 09, 2016, 12:26:57 PM »

It's for good reason that I prefer the knobby type of effect. Such devices are much easier to adjust while you're playing. I prefer to have closely gathered around me and easily within reach the instruments' control panels, the mixer, and all devices. I don't know if that contributes anything to this discussion.

BobTheDog · « **Reply #16 on:** August 09, 2016, 12:36:54 PM »

With the Eclipse your definitely need to get it set up to be controlled via midi CC, you can set your 16 most used params in each preset to be controlled by CCs.

The you can use the rather snazzy Eclipse Remote Controller app on the iPad which supports double precision CC control of the Eclipse.

Disclosure: I'm the author of that app

Shaw · « **Reply #17 on:** August 09, 2016, 01:10:51 PM »

Quote from: Sacred Synthesis on August 09, 2016, 12:26:57 PM

It's for good reason that I prefer the knobby type of effect. Such devices are much easier to adjust while you're playing. I prefer to have closely gathered around me and easily within reach the instruments' control panels, the mixer, and all devices. I don't know if that contributes anything to this discussion.

Sure it does... The Eclipse has 1 pedal input, the H9s would have one pedal input each.... And all of them respond to Midi.

Shaw · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:08:07 PM »

Sacred Synthesis will appreciate this....

https://youtu.be/tVzltQd6-Nw

Paul Dither · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:10:55 PM »

Quote from: Shaw on August 11, 2016, 07:08:07 PM

Sacred Synthesis will appreciate this....

https://youtu.be/tVzltQd6-Nw

Certainly better than any of the Behringer demos.