Bass drum patch / unexplained variation

Bass drum patch / unexplained variation
« on: May 14, 2022, 02:27:50 AM »
So I'm trying to dial in a bass drum patch on my Prophet 10 rev4, and my current attempt only uses the self-oscillating filter - OSC1/2/noise is all set to 0 in the mix - and 10 voice unison to beef it up and give it more volume without needing to crank the main volume.

It sounds good enough for my purposes, except that there's a lot of variation in the character and volume of the individual 'notes' (or 'beats', rather). The attached mp3 shows what I mean. As far as I can tell, all controls are set to where there shouldn't be any variation occurring, which makes me think that it must be coming from the filter or unison itself? I'm still just learning the ins and outs of synthesis, so I feel like I'm probably just not understanding exactly how this works and that what I'm experiencing is probably just expected behavior once you understand it.

If anybody has some insight into this issue or suggestions on how to dial in a bass drum patch on the Prophet more generally, I'd be very grateful. (I've read the Sound on Sound Synth Secrets article on bass drum synthesis, but I'm having a hard time putting it into practice.)

Re: Bass drum patch / unexplained variation
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2022, 04:28:02 AM »
Do you trigger with MIDI ?
Are all MIDI "notes" equal ?

Do you have "Velocity" on ?
Any modulation going ?  ( Filter )
Same issue with UNISON off ?

Just some thoughts ....


Cheers !
1976 MiniKORG700s // 1978 Prophet-5 rev.2 // 1981 KORG CX-3 // 1984 DX7 // 2020 Prophet-10 rev.4 // MoPho Box // 2 Creamware MiniMax // Creamware Pro-12 // 2 EMU-Proteus 2000 // EMU-Vintage Keys  // Casio VZ-10M // Roland VK-8M // Fatar SL 880 //

Re: Bass drum patch / unexplained variation
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2022, 11:09:21 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I think I've got all that covered, but I'll go over it and add some more detail just in case anybody wants to join in the fun at home. :)

Re: MIDI I'm just playing the notes by hand so far, but I'll try using an external trigger and see if that makes a difference.

Preset mode is off. Velocity and aftertouch are off, wheel-mod destinations all off, source mix set to 0, LFO off and zeroed, same with poly-mod, OSC A & B, glide rate, mixer settings, vintage set to 4.

Filter settings: rev 3, cutoff 0, resonance 6, envelope amount 3, keyboard off, attack 0, decay 5, sustain 0, release 5

Amp: attack 0, decay 5, sustain 0, release 5

The variation is more pronounced with unison on, but still present with it off. Also, if I don't set unison high, the overall volume is so low that I have to crank the master volume to get a usable sound.

LPF83

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Re: Bass drum patch / unexplained variation
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2022, 11:47:28 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I think I've got all that covered, but I'll go over it and add some more detail just in case anybody wants to join in the fun at home. :)

Re: MIDI I'm just playing the notes by hand so far, but I'll try using an external trigger and see if that makes a difference.

Preset mode is off. Velocity and aftertouch are off, wheel-mod destinations all off, source mix set to 0, LFO off and zeroed, same with poly-mod, OSC A & B, glide rate, mixer settings, vintage set to 4.

Filter settings: rev 3, cutoff 0, resonance 6, envelope amount 3, keyboard off, attack 0, decay 5, sustain 0, release 5

Amp: attack 0, decay 5, sustain 0, release 5

The variation is more pronounced with unison on, but still present with it off. Also, if I don't set unison high, the overall volume is so low that I have to crank the master volume to get a usable sound.

Boost gain using a compression plugin or hardware
Is voice allocation mode in P5 or RR?  Make sure in P5 mode so youre triggering the same voice
If in P5 mode, does it still occur through headphones if you disconnect any MIDI/USB cables?
Prophet 10, Prophet 6, OB-6, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase

Re: Bass drum patch / unexplained variation
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2022, 11:56:29 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I think I've got all that covered, but I'll go over it and add some more detail just in case anybody wants to join in the fun at home. :)

Re: MIDI I'm just playing the notes by hand so far, but I'll try using an external trigger and see if that makes a difference.

Preset mode is off. Velocity and aftertouch are off, wheel-mod destinations all off, source mix set to 0, LFO off and zeroed, same with poly-mod, OSC A & B, glide rate, mixer settings, vintage set to 4.

Filter settings: rev 3, cutoff 0, resonance 6, envelope amount 3, keyboard off, attack 0, decay 5, sustain 0, release 5

Amp: attack 0, decay 5, sustain 0, release 5

The variation is more pronounced with unison on, but still present with it off. Also, if I don't set unison high, the overall volume is so low that I have to crank the master volume to get a usable sound.

I wonder if the issue is with Unison mode. If you have all 5 voices in Unison, it seems likely there will be room for variation. Have you tried using only one voice in Unison ((hold down Unison and click the Group and Bank Select buttons to adjust etc)? Make sure Vintage is set for zero, as well. These are the first things I'd look at.

Re: Bass drum patch / unexplained variation
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2022, 12:49:19 PM »
Thanks for the further suggestions!

Boost gain using a compression plugin or hardware
Is voice allocation mode in P5 or RR?  Make sure in P5 mode so youre triggering the same voice
If in P5 mode, does it still occur through headphones if you disconnect any MIDI/USB cables?

Yeah, if I don't figure anything else out, I'll run the more consistent but also more quiet 'non-unison' version through some compression on my looper.

I don't notice any difference in the variations between P5 and RR modes, with or without MIDI/USB cables.

I wonder if the issue is with Unison mode. If you have all 5 voices in Unison, it seems likely there will be room for variation. Have you tried using only one voice in Unison ((hold down Unison and click the Group and Bank Select buttons to adjust etc)? Make sure Vintage is set for zero, as well. These are the first things I'd look at.

Take unison out of the equation does make things more (but still not totally) consistent. Unison with low voice counts doesn't really beef up the signal enough to be worth it, I'd probably just opt for boosting the signal further on down the chain at that point. Vintage is set to 4, which is essentially 0.

Re: Bass drum patch / unexplained variation
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2022, 01:35:00 PM »
Thanks for the further suggestions!

Boost gain using a compression plugin or hardware
Is voice allocation mode in P5 or RR?  Make sure in P5 mode so youre triggering the same voice
If in P5 mode, does it still occur through headphones if you disconnect any MIDI/USB cables?

Yeah, if I don't figure anything else out, I'll run the more consistent but also more quiet 'non-unison' version through some compression on my looper.

I don't notice any difference in the variations between P5 and RR modes, with or without MIDI/USB cables.

I wonder if the issue is with Unison mode. If you have all 5 voices in Unison, it seems likely there will be room for variation. Have you tried using only one voice in Unison ((hold down Unison and click the Group and Bank Select buttons to adjust etc)? Make sure Vintage is set for zero, as well. These are the first things I'd look at.

Take unison out of the equation does make things more (but still not totally) consistent. Unison with low voice counts doesn't really beef up the signal enough to be worth it, I'd probably just opt for boosting the signal further on down the chain at that point. Vintage is set to 4, which is essentially 0.

I set up a similar patch with your settings... with Unison set to a single voice and resonance turned up to 10, I'm getting a more consistent kick sound. Not super loud, but depending on how you're wanting to use this sound, that can be worked with/around, reckon...