Bluetooth MIDI

[chysn]

I got a Yamaha MD-BT01 Bluetooth MIDI interface recently. It's pretty amazing. The device has a pair of small MIDI plugs, connected by a wire, that plugs into MIDI In and MIDI Out, and it connects to a computer or tablet via Bluetooth.

I've tried it with my Pro 3 and my Circuit Tracks, and both power the device via MIDI. On the other side, I've successfully paired it with my iPad (running Gadget 2) and my MacBook Pro (running Live).

Aside from the pure convenience, this means that Circuit Tracks becomes my primary mobile controller for long trips.

One thing I can't do yet is wirelessly connect Circuit Tracks to Pro 3, to use the Tracks's sequencer. For that, I still need an old-fashioned pair of MIDI cables.

There's no latency that I can perceive as I play, and it's really easy to use. I'd highly recommend it for a simple wireless MIDI system. I'm not sure how or whether two of them would work together, but I might wind up trying a second one.

[chysn]

I purchased a CME WIDI Master today, which should arrive tomorrow. Supposedly the WIDI system allows direct instrument-to-instrument connection, so I’m going to give it a shot.

I’ll choose one type of interface to keep, and return the other.

[LPF83]

I’ll choose one type of interface to keep, and return the other.

I look forward to reading about your decision, I find myself eyeballing these wireless MIDI adapters from time to time, so a purchase is probably inevitable at some point.

[jok3r]

I‘m following this thread with great interest, too.

I don‘t think I would use this on stage, since I don‘t know what sources of disruption are there. But that could decrease my cable chaos at home a lot.

[LPF83]

I‘m following this thread with great interest, too.

I don‘t think I would use this on stage, since I don‘t know what sources of disruption are there. But that could decrease my cable chaos at home a lot.

I'd be very surprised if there's an issue with signal disruption.. I only say this because the gym I frequent is a large and relatively new/high tech one (meaning it has all the latest gadgets going in terms of connected workout equipment that communicates with phones to track workout metrics and what not)..... with lots of people using their mobile device + earbuds, and I've used everything from the cheapest bluetooth earbuds up to Airpod Pros in that environment, but never had a problem symptomatic of intereference or signal disruption.

My primary questions around BT MIDI have more to do with average latency.  If I'm playing pads etc. more than 10ms or so of latency isn't going to bother me much, but 10ms or so is about how much I can tolerate with a sound that has a fast attack envelope. 

So I'm curious how much latency above that which is already present with MIDI itself + audio interface buffer size is added.

[jok3r]

I'd be very surprised if there's an issue with signal disruption.. I only say this because the gym I frequent is a large and relatively new/high tech one (meaning it has all the latest gadgets going in terms of connected workout equipment that communicates with phones to track workout metrics and what not)..... with lots of people using their mobile device + earbuds, and I've used everything from the cheapest bluetooth earbuds up to Airpod Pros in that environment, but never had a problem symptomatic of intereference or signal disruption.

Thinking of it that way, you're probably right.

Another problem I see is the pairing mechanism. I read a little about the CME stuff and they describe some easy pairing mechanism that will work full automatically. But I had not the time to investigate the details. So at the moment I'm living in fear of people in front of the stage getting the idea "hey, let's kidnap the keyboard players midi devices during the show". I have seen a lot of bluetooth stuff, that does not require any kind of authentication, e.g. a lot of portable audio speakers used at different parties, where it get's a kind of sport to kidnap the device and play your own music.

I hope there is some hardware button to be pressed for pairing.

[chysn]

I’ll provide feedback when I can. Sadly, the WIDI was supposed to arrive today, but Amazon says it’s delayed. My experience with Amazon has been that a delay is simply a prelude to cancellation. So it might be a while or never…

[jok3r]

Note: This comment was made by Chysn due to a moderation error by Chysn

My CME WIDI Master arrived today, and I took it through its paces.

It works perfectly with my Pro 3 and Circuit Tracks on the instrument end, and with my iPad, iPhone, and MacBook Pro on the device end.

Once paired, it will auto-pair, unlike the Yamaha device. Note that it you switch devices, you'll need to re-pair it, though.

On the WIDI Master, there's no pairing button. The device is assigned a six-digit number during the pairing process, and from that point, the interface and the device know each other, and your connection can't get hijacked. So if you use it at a show, you'll want to pair everything before the show starts. This seems way more secure than the Yamaha, which forgets its pairing every time.

I can't think of any reason to prefer the Yamaha over CME's system. The cost is the same, but the CME offers Bluetooth 5 support with lower latency (not that the Yamaha seemed bad in this regard), potential for instrument-to-instrument MIDI (huge), and auto-connect (as long as the same device is paired). So the Yamaha is going back, and I'm going to work on learning how to connect Pro 3 to Tracks wirelessly.

I think what I need now is the CME WIDI Jack. This will connect to the Pro 3, and it'll act as a host for the WIDI Master that I already have....

[jok3r]

Why do I see this post of chysn under my username? Is anybody else seeing this?

Note in the picture, that chysn edited it

[LPF83]

Why do I see this post of chysn under my username? Is anybody else seeing this?

Note in the picture, that chysn edited it

I'm seeing same

[jok3r]

So that is no error of my browser cache or something.

Chysn do you have any moderator rights in this forum and accidentally edited my post ( I actually really postet something this morning that is missing now ) instead of creating a new one? That would be the only possibility I can think of…

Crazy things are happening   

[chysn]

So that is no error of my browser cache or something.

Chysn do you have any moderator rights in this forum and accidentally edited my post ( I actually really postet something this morning that is missing now ) instead of creating a new one? That would be the only possibility I can think of…

Crazy things are happening   

Yes, my deepest apologies, that's exactly what happened. I must have hit Modify instead of Quote. I'll watch out for that more closely in the future.

[maxter]

I’ll provide feedback when I can. Sadly, the WIDI was supposed to arrive today, but Amazon says it’s delayed. My experience with Amazon has been that a delay is simply a prelude to cancellation. So it might be a while or never…

I know that feeling… from where, though?.. ah yes, firmware updates!

Relax SCI, it’s a joke! I couldn’t help myself, but that was actually the first thing that came to mind! please don’t ban me!

I’ve had an eye on these BT MIDI connections myself for a while, so it’s interresting to get some feedback on how they behave/perform. Personally, I have enough pairing connections and the likes already, and feel like for each one there’s yet another connection that can ”act up”, which always disrupts the flow and creativity of things. Must be getting old or something, but these days I really appreciate when things are simple, like where I don’t need to take 20-30 steps just to get up and rolling everytime… out of frustration I suppose  but if I should get a more portable slimmed-down setup, BT MIDI will be a no-brainer.

[chysn]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Just like streaming services, there can be some fatigue associated with managing lots of things. With MIDI cables, you know where you stand, and it just works.

I'm excited about Bluetooth MIDI because I don't really have a dedicated studio space, and Bluetooth MIDI promises to open the door to what I'd call a "distributed studio." For example, I've been sitting at the kitchen table with my iPad, running Gadget, to my left and my Circuit Tracks to my right, with the WIDI interface connected. I'm trying to get a feel for whether Tracks can replace controllers with keyboard-like layouts.

The idea is that my studio can be anywhere and go anywhere, and relies on a small number of instruments that I learn well.

[g3o2]

CME WIDI is more plug&play than a MIDI cable. I remember all those times where the MIDI cable was plugged into the wrong port in one of the devices.

In terms of sustainable development, the cable will be the obvious winner: no reliance on any other technology than the cable itself, until it breaks one day.

[jok3r]

I also got two pairs of WIDI Masters this week. My experience so far is a mixed one.

I used my Rev2 as master keyboard and played a piano from Ableton per WIDI. No recognizable delay.
Then I used my AKAI Midi keyboard plugged directly into the PC and routed through Ableton to control the Rev2. No noticable delay.
But when I used the Rev2 to control it by itself with Local off set, so Rev2 -> DAW -> Rev2 there was a noticable delay. Not unplayable, but it depends on sound. OK for pads, but not ok for more percussive sounds.

I still keep the devices, because I don't have the Local off use case very often. I usually don't use the Rev2 as master keyboard. Either I'm using it on it's own when programming or playing it directly, or I play/sequence it from DAW with another master keyboard.
Quite the reverse. I think of buying more of them to get rid of half the cables lying in my studio.

[g3o2]

But when I used the Rev2 to control it by itself with Local off set, so Rev2 -> DAW -> Rev2 there was a noticable delay. Not unplayable, but it depends on sound. OK for pads, but not ok for more percussive sounds.

And there is no noticeable delay when using DIN cables instead for this exact use case? Or are you comparing with a USB connection?

[maxter]

But when I used the Rev2 to control it by itself with Local off set, so Rev2 -> DAW -> Rev2 there was a noticable delay. Not unplayable, but it depends on sound. OK for pads, but not ok for more percussive sounds.

And there is no noticeable delay when using DIN cables instead for this exact use case? Or are you comparing with a USB connection?

Wireless has higher latency than by wire, be it MIDI DIN or USB.

Unidirectional, ie one way, seems to be almost unnoticeable to jok3r in this case, but when sending MIDI forth and then back again, it doubles whatever the latency is, which makes it noticeable.

[jok3r]

But when I used the Rev2 to control it by itself with Local off set, so Rev2 -> DAW -> Rev2 there was a noticable delay. Not unplayable, but it depends on sound. OK for pads, but not ok for more percussive sounds.

And there is no noticeable delay when using DIN cables instead for this exact use case? Or are you comparing with a USB connection?

No, never noticed the latency when using DIN cables. But the point at where you notice it depends on the player also. Perhaps someone would notice it in this use case with midi cables, too. That is only my subjective experience. I did no exact evaluation or time measuring.

As maxter repeated, when using it unidirectional I could not notice any latency. So I'm still satisfied, since this is my regular use case. I think of buying some more of these devices.

[chysn]

I got a CME Uhost over the weekend. The difference between the CME Master and Uhost is that the Uhost can function as a MIDI host for class-compliant USB MIDI devices.

I tried it with a eurorack module based on a Teensy 3.2 microcontroller, which can be a class-compliant MIDI device, but not a MIDI host. This meant that I could hook the module up to a computer to send and receive MIDI, but it couldn't communicate directly with other MIDI instruments.

The Uhost solves this beautifully, and it just works. It finds the class-compliant device, and then automatically connects to... well, whatever. I have a Bluetooth MIDI device, a Korg nanoKEY Studio, and it connects directly to the Uhost. And, as you'd expect, my CME Master also connects seamlessly.

The end result is that I can control my modular synth with the nanoKEY, Circuit Tracks (via CME Master), or Pro 3 (same).

I plan on posting a video soon.