Out of tune suddenly

Out of tune suddenly
« on: March 16, 2022, 10:46:18 AM »
did some encounter this - it happened to me three times already:

i play with an external sequencer a nice sequence, jam around a bit... at some point i make a brake.. when i come back and hit play again, the synth is totally out of tune.

If i play the keyboard the VCO has with each keypress a different tune. Just as if a Random-LFO is modulating the pitch. But this isn't the case. I triple-checked that.  Not externally not internally

I was able to correct the tuning bei either run the calibration again or turn the synth off and wait 30 seconds.

kpatz

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2022, 11:08:53 AM »
Is the Take 5's sequencer getting turned on inadvertently?  When you start your external sequencer, it may be sending a Sequencer Start message to the T5, and it's responding by starting its sequencer.

If you have MIDI clock in turned on in globals, you can change it to In No S/S to allow it to receive midi clock but ignore sequencer start/stop messages.

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2022, 09:26:54 AM »
that is too simple ...

as it just happened again could verify that.

I checked all global and program parameters , nothing was causing it. But turning the t5 off/on fixed it.

Again it happend after a break using the T5

It can only be a certain Midi command causing a certain setting or a firmware issue of the T5

kpatz

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2022, 04:04:59 AM »
The pitch wheel needing calibration could cause it too.  What happens if you move the wheel?  Or monitor the midi messages sent from it in a DAW or a midi monitor?

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2022, 04:39:15 AM »
The pitch wheel needing calibration could cause it too.  What happens if you move the wheel?  Or monitor the midi messages sent from it in a DAW or a midi monitor?

i calibrated the pitch wheel when it was happening, it didn't change anything. Calibrating the whole voices did help.
It will be very hard to read 2h or more of midi data .. but well i can try

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2022, 03:44:53 PM »
Hi,

i've got mine today and it came totally detuned out of the box. I calibrated the voices, and it was ok for for around 20 minutes or so, then it suddenly became totally detuned again, just while changing patches only.

It could have worried me ;) but fortunately i already own a Prophet 6 and an OB 6 and am therefore accustomed to the tuning table quirks of Sequential VCO Synths.

The Take 5 probably implements the same system, where the tuning parameters are stored in a table per degree of temperature. When you calibrate the voices, you fill the table with parameters for that particular (actual) temperature at the moment. But if the table is else filled with more or less junk parameters (for the other temperatures), then even a step of one degree more or less can throw the synth totally out of tune, because it reads and applies the parameters for the (new) actual temperature (it measures it internally). If the synth was never before calibrated at that temp and the corresponding prameter values in the table are 'junk', then the synth will suddenly be out of tune.

For the Prophet 6 an OB 6 the best cure for this problem is to clear the temp tuning table and freshly calibrate the synth again at different time points (temperatures) in the warmup process after turning it on. That way you are newly building the table and filling it with meaningful and correct parameter values for the different temperatures.

In the Troubleshooting Guide for the Take 5 the process of clearing the oscillator/filter calibration table is described in section II.D.:
https://support.sequential.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408612422547-Take-5-Troubleshooting

Best regards
Neni

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2022, 03:31:53 AM »
Hi,

i've got mine today and it came totally detuned out of the box. I calibrated the voices, and it was ok for for around 20 minutes or so, then it suddenly became totally detuned again, just while changing patches only.

It could have worried me ;) but fortunately i already own a Prophet 6 and an OB 6 and am therefore accustomed to the tuning table quirks of Sequential VCO Synths.

The Take 5 probably implements the same system, where the tuning parameters are stored in a table per degree of temperature. When you calibrate the voices, you fill the table with parameters for that particular (actual) temperature at the moment. But if the table is else filled with more or less junk parameters (for the other temperatures), then even a step of one degree more or less can throw the synth totally out of tune, because it reads and applies the parameters for the (new) actual temperature (it measures it internally). If the synth was never before calibrated at that temp and the corresponding prameter values in the table are 'junk', then the synth will suddenly be out of tune.

For the Prophet 6 an OB 6 the best cure for this problem is to clear the temp tuning table and freshly calibrate the synth again at different time points (temperatures) in the warmup process after turning it on. That way you are newly building the table and filling it with meaningful and correct parameter values for the different temperatures.

In the Troubleshooting Guide for the Take 5 the process of clearing the oscillator/filter calibration table is described in section II.D.:
https://support.sequential.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408612422547-Take-5-Troubleshooting

Best regards
Neni

thank you that is worth a try!

however the T5 stayed totally fine tuned the whole saturday and sunday

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2022, 05:17:27 AM »
Quote
however the T5 stayed totally fine tuned the whole saturday and sunday

Yes, i think the more times you have performed a calibration when the instrument went out of tune, the less the 'out of tune'-event will occur in the future, because you have filled more and more temperature points in the table with correct and valid calibration parameter values.

kpatz

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2022, 08:11:54 AM »
Mine needed to be calibrated several times the first week or so I had it, but it's been stable since.  I don't even remember the last time I ran a calibration (I got mine end of October).

So this is normal, and it will become stable after a few calibrations.

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2022, 11:23:59 AM »
Quote
however the T5 stayed totally fine tuned the whole saturday and sunday

Yes, i think the more times you have performed a calibration when the instrument went out of tune, the less the 'out of tune'-event will occur in the future, because you have filled more and more temperature points in the table with correct and valid calibration parameter values.

can it really be an out of tune due to temperature ?

i really doubt that. I image when  that happens each note gets some offset, but i'm getting really weird behavior that each time i press the same key it has a different tuning.. at the end it sounds like a pattern . not totally random.
It happend today 5 times within 2 hours.

I deleted now the calibration data and rerun the calibration. Let's see how it goes.

kpatz

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2022, 02:40:11 PM »

can it really be an out of tune due to temperature ?

i really doubt that. I image when  that happens each note gets some offset, but i'm getting really weird behavior that each time i press the same key it has a different tuning.. at the end it sounds like a pattern . not totally random.
It happend today 5 times within 2 hours.

I deleted now the calibration data and rerun the calibration. Let's see how it goes.
The T5 round robins through the 5 voices when played in poly mode.  So if the voices are out of tune, you'll hear a repeating cycle every 5 notes, it's not random.  If you put it in unison mode, you'll just hear voice 1 (or voices 1+2, 1+2+3 etc. depending on how many voices you set unison to).

Now that you've cleared the calibration tables, run a calibration anytime you hear the synth is out of tune and it should get more stable over time.  Depending on where you reside, it's probably spring (or fall) and the weather is all over the place, gradually getting warmer so keep the calibrations coming.

Oh... check the vintage knob setting too.  If it's cranked up (and it's saved per patch), the voices, filter cutoffs, envelopes, will all vary per voice.  Set vintage all the way counterclockwise before verifying tuning.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 02:59:53 PM by kpatz »

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2023, 07:50:44 AM »
Hey Guys,

just got mine today. Could someone explain me what happens when it goes out of tune ?
My room is a bit cold at the moment, 16.5. quite sure I bought it from a guy who tuned it many times at 20C.
So have tuned it 5-6 times since but It occasionally drops a full tone, is this normal behaviour ?

I'll try to clear the tables as well as indicated in the manual . Just upgraded firmware successfully to 10.0.22. Enjoying this little beauty so far, such an upgrade from my old PRO2 imho.

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2023, 10:12:47 AM »
just got mine today. Could someone explain me what happens when it goes out of tune ?
My room is a bit cold at the moment, 16.5. quite sure I bought it from a guy who tuned it many times at 20C.
So have tuned it 5-6 times since but It occasionally drops a full tone, is this normal behaviour ?
I've got mine for just a month.
It went out of tune several times. In my case, calibrating the voices fix the issue but just for a few minutes.
I've cleared the calibration table and recalibrated the voices. Since then, the tuning is quite stable.


Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2023, 05:35:24 PM »
I've also had this detuning issue where it seems to randomly get detuned sometimes. I got the synth recently though so I'll see if after recalaberating it a number of times it eventually stays tuned regularly.

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2023, 08:04:17 AM »

Have tuned my take 5 at least 20 times over the 2 days, still getting out of tune after a couple of minutes or funnily enough when using the pitch wheel or playing up & down the keyboard.


To make this post a bit better instead of a broken link, here is the procedure to clear the calibration table :

D. Clear Oscillator/Filter Calibration

Enter the Debug menu by holding Transpose UP + DOWN and pressing global.

Clear Calibration is the first option and should be selected.
Press write to clear calibration data.
*Note that no on-screen confirmation of the clearing will be displayed. After clearing calibration data, you will need to run the VCO & Filter Calibration routine again.

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2023, 03:20:15 PM »
There's definitely something odd going with the tuning that is not related to temperature. I received my Take 5 today and calibrated it at least 5 times so far. It keeps a pretty stable tuning, however while I was editing a patch and then saved it to a new location, immediately afterwards the patch was very detuned. I executed another calibration that fixed it but it just doesn't make sense for the synth to be in tune for an hour and then suddenly to become very out of tune instantly.

I'm wondering if this is somehow related to the latest beta firmware that provides more banks and slots. I noticed a very weird behavior:
- I am in the latest user bank G
- I initialize the first patch in that bank G01 since it has a weird name with weird characters and store it and it is then named properly "Basic Patch"
- I then open factory patch 101 and edit it and then save it in user G16 (the last patch number)
- Suddenly the synth is out of tune
- I then realize the name of patch G01 has once again became weirdly named
- I execute a voice calibration and than patch G01 then gets the name of factory patch 101

Something is not quite right, storing patches in the new extended user banks area messes up with the tuning and the other patches in that area, while voice calibration also messes up the patches in that area. I would assume that erroneously the voice calibration data and the new extended bank data have colliding memory addresses or something.

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2023, 03:36:36 PM »
Cybergene,
As I've indicated in a previous post :
- in my case, calibrating the voices fix the tuning issue only for a few minutes.
- I've cleared the calibration table and recalibrated the voices. Since then, the tuning is quite stable.

To clear the calibration table, you need to :
- enter the "Debug" menu by holding Transpose UP + DOWN and pressing the Global.
- then select Clear calibration and press write.

I hope this helps.

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2023, 03:15:30 AM »
To make this post a bit better instead of a broken link, here is the procedure to clear the calibration table :

D. Clear Oscillator/Filter Calibration

Enter the Debug menu by holding Transpose UP + DOWN and pressing global.

Clear Calibration is the first option and should be selected.
Press write to clear calibration data.
*Note that no on-screen confirmation of the clearing will be displayed. After clearing calibration data, you will need to run the VCO & Filter Calibration routine again.

thank you. I only found here how to enter in DEBUG mode. It seems to me that there isn't in the manual.
Where can I find information about the Debug Mode procedure? for example, When is it useful to use the Clear Calibration procedure?
Clear Calibration is the procedure for resetting the calibration table?

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2023, 05:59:05 AM »
just wanted to inform that I was having a lot of issues again with tuning. Tuner in ableton showed 50ct difference in both directions and jumps of full tones.

How did I fix it ? :


1)Left synth on for half an hour to warm up
2) upgraded to v2.0, cleared global
3)cleared temp table with procedure above
4)tuned
5) was still having issues !
6)calibrated the modwheel, this by far was the biggest fix as the initial problem of 50ct swing was resolved.
7)if it gets unstable tune again so you fill up the temp calibration table

Re: Out of tune suddenly
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2023, 08:09:04 PM »
Quote
however the T5 stayed totally fine tuned the whole saturday and sunday

Yes, i think the more times you have performed a calibration when the instrument went out of tune, the less the 'out of tune'-event will occur in the future, because you have filled more and more temperature points in the table with correct and valid calibration parameter values.

can it really be an out of tune due to temperature ?

i really doubt that. I image when  that happens each note gets some offset, but i'm getting really weird behavior that each time i press the same key it has a different tuning.. at the end it sounds like a pattern . not totally random.
It happend today 5 times within 2 hours.

I deleted now the calibration data and rerun the calibration. Let's see how it goes.

At the heart of T5 are analog VCO oscillators, and yes, they can go out of tune depending on temperature. Many people have forgotten this after decades of digital synths, or DCO (digitally controlled oscillators) synths that are stable at almost any temp. It is just a function of having a true analog synth, despite whatever digital side Take 5 has.--Steve