Tempest Main 1.5.0.2 and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #260 on: October 23, 2016, 04:01:06 AM »
Hi,

I have run into a problem when syncing the Tempest to my DAW (Logic).

I am slaving the Tempest to Logic's MIDI clock and using Logic to trigger beat changes remotely via MIDI. This all works fine apart from on certain beats it seems that the Tempest is attempting to take account of the SPP info from Logic and therefore jumping to the middle of a beat when I change instead of starting from the beginning.

For example - if I have an eight bar beat that is triggered on bar 5 of my song the Tempest will jump to bar 5 of the beat when it is triggered instead of starting from the beginning.

I am not sure if this counts as a 'bug' per se as I guess this behaviour might be desirable under certain circumstances but it would be very useful to have a user preference to turn it off (ie just have the Tempest sync to clock and ignore SPP). Or a preference to ensure beats always start from the start (I couldn't find either so I'm presuming they don't exist).

It was also be nice of course if Logic gave me the option to stop it sending SPP (which it doesn't) or if my MIDI interface could filter out SPP en route to the Tempest (which it doesn't though it has options to filter out just about everything else)!

cheers
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #261 on: October 23, 2016, 07:32:57 AM »
I have run into what seems like a *horrible* bug which is really impacting my workflow...

- When 'remote pad play' is set to 'beats' the Tempest switches beat even when in '16 Sounds' mode. I've tried restarting and the same thing happens. Switch 'remote pad play' mode back to 'sounds' and the problem doesn't occur. This could well make this beta unuseable for me.  :-[ 
Yes, that's how it is supposed to operate and how it's operated from the start. If you set Pad To Note Mode to Beats, incoming MIDI Note On messages will select Beats. I think you may be intending to set Pad To Note Mode to Follow Pad Func, which follows the Pad Function. Hopefully this will be less horrible for you.

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the reply - I will try and get a reliable repro for the issue.

I don't think you quite understand what I mean by the issue though - I have Pad To Note mode set to 'beats' so that remote control of the pads will change beat. I then set 'local' control mode to 'sounds' so I can jam along or edit sounds as I go. Hitting a (physical) pad is now triggering the appropriate sound as expected but also changing beat! Surely this is not expected behaviour?

As is often the case with these things it hasn't popped up since I first experienced it but I am about to get the Tempest out now...

OK - after some time with it today I think I'm going to have to call 'mea culpa' on this issue and put it down to pilot error.

I haven't run into any such issues today and thinking through the scenario that caused it in the first place I think what seems like the most likely explanation was as follows...

- I had just updated the Tempest so assumed any new problems were due to the update(!)
- I had both USB and MIDI DIN connected (normally I disconnect USB but I use it for fw updates)
- I ran into the 'two sounds not playing at once' issue so reset system parameters
- This caused my 'Remote Pad OUT Channel' settings to be changed (I think I had this set to 'off' before)
- This caused a MIDI feedback loop in Logic so that any pad I pressed on the tempest resulted in the equivalent MIDI being re-routed back to the Tempest - as I had 'remote pad play' set to 'beats' this meant beats kept changing even if I was in '16 sounds' mode.

I reckon that must have been it. Apologies for going off on one. Only issue I've run into today has been the SPP one above.

cheers
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #262 on: October 23, 2016, 11:11:49 AM »
OK - after some time with it today I think I'm going to have to call 'mea culpa' on this issue and put it down to pilot error.
Thanks, muleskinner.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #263 on: October 23, 2016, 11:17:04 AM »
Hi,

I have run into a problem when syncing the Tempest to my DAW (Logic).

I am slaving the Tempest to Logic's MIDI clock and using Logic to trigger beat changes remotely via MIDI. This all works fine apart from on certain beats it seems that the Tempest is attempting to take account of the SPP info from Logic and therefore jumping to the middle of a beat when I change instead of starting from the beginning.

For example - if I have an eight bar beat that is triggered on bar 5 of my song the Tempest will jump to bar 5 of the beat when it is triggered instead of starting from the beginning.

I am not sure if this counts as a 'bug' per se as I guess this behaviour might be desirable under certain circumstances but it would be very useful to have a user preference to turn it off (ie just have the Tempest sync to clock and ignore SPP). Or a preference to ensure beats always start from the start (I couldn't find either so I'm presuming they don't exist).

It was also be nice of course if Logic gave me the option to stop it sending SPP (which it doesn't) or if my MIDI interface could filter out SPP en route to the Tempest (which it doesn't though it has options to filter out just about everything else)!

cheers
Hi muleskinner,
I'm afraid Tempest is merely responding to SPP as it should. Actually, Logic does have the setting you need: In File menu > Project Settings > Synchronization > MIDI, set Mode to "Song - SPP at Play Start only".

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #264 on: October 23, 2016, 11:40:04 AM »
Also I notice that 'pad hold' seems to turn itself off if you switch from '16 beats' mode to '16 sounds' and back which I'm pretty sure shouldn't happen and didn't happen in v.1.4.
Yes, that is correct. Pad Hold mode is only available while in the 16 Beats / Pads screen. It has always been that way.

To clarify - what I mean by this one is that if you turn 'pad hold' on, switch from '16 Beats' to '16 Sounds' and then back to '16 Beats' then 'pad hold' has turned itself off. I wouldn't have thought this was the intended behaviour - surely it should remain as set by the user? It may have always been this way I don't know, I've only just started using it, seems a bit counter-intuitive to me though.
I'm afraid that is how it was designed. If Pad Hold was permitted to remain on while in other Pad Function selections, it would create a large number of opportunities for new bugs caused by specific and rare combinations of Tempest's many modes. For example, what happens when 16 Sounds is selected, but you wish to hold 16 Beats while also holding a beat pad to briefly play and stop a beat by holding and releasing a beat pad (or pressing and releasing an external keyboard key)? We'd have to write more software for all those specific cases, and if we didn't do it perfectly some customer would undoubtedly get angry and say it is the one bug that is ruining his creative process. Sometimes it's better to have less features.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 12:07:34 PM by Roger_Linn »

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #265 on: October 23, 2016, 11:52:33 AM »
I don't think you quite understand what I mean by the issue though - I have Pad To Note mode set to 'beats' so that remote control of the pads will change beat. I then set 'local' control mode to 'sounds' so I can jam along or edit sounds as I go. Hitting a (physical) pad is now triggering the appropriate sound as expected but also changing beat! Surely this is not expected behaviour?
The System > General > Local Control parameter does not have a "Sounds" option, so when you write "I then set 'local' control mode to 'sounds'", I assume you mean that you are pressing the 16 Sounds button. If so, then the problem you describe does not occur here. Is it possible that you have Tempest set to send MIDI Note On messages when you play the pads, and your external MIDI keyboard is echoing back those same Note On messages, which of course are changing the beat because you have Pad To Note Mode set to Beats? For a quick test, try removing all connections to the USB and MIDI jacks and test it again. If it still occurs, please try to give more details about which settings cause it to occur. 

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #266 on: October 23, 2016, 11:57:31 AM »
The System > General > Local Control parameter does not have a "Sounds" option, so when you write "I then set 'local' control mode to 'sounds'", I assume you mean that you are pressing the 16 Sounds button. If so, then the problem you describe does not occur here. Is it possible that you have Tempest set to send MIDI Note On messages when you play the pads, and your external MIDI keyboard is echoing back those same Note On messages, which of course are changing the beat because you have Pad To Note Mode set to Beats? For a quick test, try removing all connections to the USB and MIDI jacks and test it again. If it still occurs, please try to give more details about which settings cause it to occur.

Yes that is what I meant  and I think the MIDI echo is exactly what was happening as I described above - again, sorry for wasting your time. It was resetting my system parameters that did it - I forgot to check all the settings!
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #267 on: October 23, 2016, 11:58:33 AM »
Hi muleskinner,
I'm afraid Tempest is merely responding to SPP as it should. Actually, Logic does have the setting you need: In File menu > Project Settings > Synchronization > MIDI, set Mode to "Song - SPP at Play Start only".

Hi Roger,

Thanks again for the input - I had tried that option but couldn't get it to work, however I have just tried again and after not working for a bit it has now started working OK. I think I needed to play from the start of the song to fully 'clear' the SPP or something - anyway, seems like it's a Logic thing rather than a Tempest thing and hopefully this will sort it.

I need to read up more on those sync options in Logic but have so far failed to turn up any useful documentation!

cheers

Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #268 on: October 23, 2016, 12:03:23 PM »
Yes, I get the same results on stock Tempest projects. I have just switch the Tempest on and loaded the stock Tempest project “Eight Oh Eight’ and attempted Export Project over MIDI the Tempest froze at Exporting project [Beat 3]. I can post the resulting 4Msgs SysEx file if you want. Thanks again for your time.
Thanks, Grunes. Those same steps caused Tempest to freeze here, though oddly it froze while exporting beat 10. Regardless, I thank you for finding this one, which I believe is worthy of fixing before releasing the update.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #269 on: October 23, 2016, 12:14:34 PM »
Another one from me - I am still on the previous version but can't see this in any changelogs...

If 'remote pad play' mode is set to 'beats' and a midi note is sent triggering a new beat whilst 'roll' is held down then the beat rolls.

I guess one could argue this is expected behaviour but it happens even if the Tempest is set to 'sounds' mode, so if you want to jam by rolling individual sounds whilst triggering beats via MIDI you can't as the beat always rolls as well. I'd class it as a bug anyway - it's annoying me! ; )

Also it seems buggy behaviour anyway as the beat seems to get stuck in the 'roll' state even if roll is released until either another beat is triggered or the same beat is re-triggered.
Try the latest version, 1.4.3.2b. You'll find that if Pad To Note Mode is set to Beats AND Roll is On AND a Note On message is received (to play a beat), then Roll is immediately turned off to avoid such problems.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #270 on: October 23, 2016, 12:24:29 PM »
2 new bugs guys:

Bug 1:

1. Set System > UI Preferences > Solo/Mute behavior to 'Seq only'
2. Mute one of your pads which contains a sequence
3. Play that same pad live in 16 tunings mode whilst tweaking the mixer level knob
4. You will hear the sound cuts out while the knob is being tweaked, then returns when you leave the knob alone
The solution is to not move the knob while playing the sounds. I'm afraid we have bigger fish to fry.

Bug 2 (similar to or same as the recently reported sync bug, not sure):

Noticed tonight that often when I first start Tempest set as Master, with Ableton Live 9.6.1 set as slave, the first beat or two are not quite in time, then it tightens up and is fine.  This approach to sync with Ableton seems to be the only way currently since setting Ableton as the master & Tempest as the slave creates VERY shoddy timing.
Exactly how is Tempest's timing shoddy while slaving to Ableton's MIDI clock? So far, no one has been able to find any problems with Tempest slaving to MIDI clock except that in some conditions, Tempest syncs one MIDI clock early (and in very rare cases two clocks) but maintains its sync position relative to the sender forever until stopped.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #271 on: October 23, 2016, 12:47:53 PM »
Interesting. I agree that just because I dont experience or notice anything that it isnt a bug. I was more interested in hearing examples. So, does a cycle mean 4 quarter ticks...starting a bar late or is a cycle a quarter tick....one quarter note off...or something else? *grin*.
Sorry for late reply. The bug John was referring to is the only bug I'm aware of related to Tempest slaving to external MIDI clock:

Under some conditions, Tempest may sync one MIDI clock early and in rare cases two clocks early, relative to the sending device.

One MIDI clock (1/24 of a quarter note) at 120 BPM is about 20 mS, and that's early not late. And in the cases where it does play early, it stays locked one clock early forever until stopped. The conditions that cause this are due to many ways different master devices like to arrange the sync messages they send, for example sending initial SPP immediately followed by Start and Clocks, which gives the slave device no time to calculate the new position.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #272 on: October 24, 2016, 03:16:25 AM »
Hi -just ran into another one (hopefully not pilot error this time). Not a major issue but had me scratching my head for a bit.

If you are in '16 Beats' mode and try to copy/paste beats by holding the 'copy' button nothing happens when you 'paste' into the beat that is currently selected - pasting into any unselected beat works OK.

I tried this on two different projects, different beats and after power-cycling.

cheers
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #273 on: October 24, 2016, 04:06:35 PM »
Hi -just ran into another one (hopefully not pilot error this time). Not a major issue but had me scratching my head for a bit.

If you are in '16 Beats' mode and try to copy/paste beats by holding the 'copy' button nothing happens when you 'paste' into the beat that is currently selected - pasting into any unselected beat works OK.

I tried this on two different projects, different beats and after power-cycling.

cheers
Yes, I've verified here that is a bug. Thank you, muleskinner.

bozo

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #274 on: October 25, 2016, 07:31:37 AM »
Interesting. I agree that just because I dont experience or notice anything that it isnt a bug. I was more interested in hearing examples. So, does a cycle mean 4 quarter ticks...starting a bar late or is a cycle a quarter tick....one quarter note off...or something else? *grin*.
Sorry for late reply. The bug John was referring to is the only bug I'm aware of related to Tempest slaving to external MIDI clock:

Under some conditions, Tempest may sync one MIDI clock early and in rare cases two clocks early, relative to the sending device.

One MIDI clock (1/24 of a quarter note) at 120 BPM is about 20 mS, and that's early not late. And in the cases where it does play early, it stays locked one clock early forever until stopped. The conditions that cause this are due to many ways different master devices like to arrange the sync messages they send, for example sending initial SPP immediately followed by Start and Clocks, which gives the slave device no time to calculate the new position.
a midi issue, not a machine issue?

stupid midi, serves us well for 35 years and now lets us down :o ;D

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #275 on: October 25, 2016, 07:49:45 AM »
a midi issue, not a machine issue?
Hi bozo--
As much as I'd like to blame MIDI, Dave and the others who originally created it actually did a great job and it does work very well. In terms of this bug, I think Tempest should be expected to expect the unexpected. :)

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #276 on: October 25, 2016, 12:25:40 PM »
Tempest 4824 just arrived. I've been watching this product for 5 years waiting for these bugs to get ironed out. Not having quantize off was a real deal breaker for me and after that took 4 years to get addressed, I had little hope the tempest would get developed to the point where I felt comfortable purchasing it. I signed the petition before I owned one, because I wanted to buy one. It seems the petition got the attention of Roger, who seems to be a man of great integrity, and it was his personal interactions here that got me to pull the trigger while the update was still in beta as i'm confident he will see this through completion. Five years is a long time but, to be fair, I'm pretty sure Moog took longer to release a voyager os update that finally fully utilized the touch surface (it was stuck on filter cutoff/ resonance forever).

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #277 on: October 25, 2016, 12:42:30 PM »
Tempest 4824 just arrived. I've been watching this product for 5 years waiting for these bugs to get ironed out. Not having quantize off was a real deal breaker for me and after that took 4 years to get addressed, I had little hope the tempest would get developed to the point where I felt comfortable purchasing it. I signed the petition before I owned one, because I wanted to buy one. It seems the petition got the attention of Roger, who seems to be a man of great integrity, and it was his personal interactions here that got me to pull the trigger while the update was still in beta as i'm confident he will see this through completion. Five years is a long time but, to be fair, I'm pretty sure Moog took longer to release a voyager os update that finally fully utilized the touch surface (it was stuck on filter cutoff/ resonance forever).
Hi fantastic--
Thank you for your trust. Note that the new update is not yet released, so you must update your Tempest with the beta software.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #278 on: October 26, 2016, 03:26:57 AM »


Noticed tonight that often when I first start Tempest set as Master, with Ableton Live 9.6.1 set as slave, the first beat or two are not quite in time, then it tightens up and is fine.  This approach to sync with Ableton seems to be the only way currently since setting Ableton as the master & Tempest as the slave creates VERY shoddy timing.
Quote
Exactly how is Tempest's timing shoddy while slaving to Ableton's MIDI clock? So far, no one has been able to find any problems with Tempest slaving to MIDI clock except that in some conditions, Tempest syncs one MIDI clock early (and in very rare cases two clocks) but maintains its sync position relative to the sender forever until stopped.

Hi Roger, sorry for late reply.  Seems to work now!  Go figure, I guess ;)  J


Re: Tempest Main 1.4.2.5b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #279 on: October 26, 2016, 01:29:18 PM »
I am having an issue on the latest beta where I can send midi notes out from the pads via DIN cable LIVE , but those recorded notes will not send out via din midi cable on sequencer playback. does anyone else have this issue?
I am on premote pad OUT channel 10, pad to note mode sounds, and am trying to send notes c1-c2