Tempest Main 1.5.0.2 and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports

Roger_Linn · « **Reply #40 on:** July 05, 2016, 04:33:36 PM »

Quote from: HT on July 04, 2016, 01:32:32 PM

+/- Octave text is missing.

Select a sound.
Select 16 Tunings.
Pad screen.

Press Roll and the +/- Octave text isn't there although the soft knob 2 still changes Octaves.

Hi HT--
You've found a new bug-- thank you. I've added it to our internal bug list.

Roger_Linn · « **Reply #41 on:** July 05, 2016, 04:47:13 PM »

Quote from: Trevor Refix on July 05, 2016, 03:04:59 PM

I can't update until my next string of live shows are finished but can anyone confirm if the "Tempest starting one midi clock late or early depending on various conditions of the sync source or Tempest modes" bug has been fixed? This bug always got lumped in with the "drift" one on the petition / in discussion and thought Roger acknowledged it's existence (that's his quote), I haven't seen it listed as something that was fixed - or that it's even on the official list.

Thank you! I'm really excited at all the progress being made

Hi Trevor--
I'm sorry to report that the bug "Slaving to external MIDI Clock causes Tempest to play either in sync or one clock early, depending on sync source conditions and Tempest settings" is not yet fixed.

Trevor Refix · « **Reply #42 on:** July 05, 2016, 05:06:03 PM »

Thanks for the response Roger (and for being so communicative in general).

Stoss · « **Reply #43 on:** July 05, 2016, 06:41:30 PM »

I will be more thoroughly testing some use case scenarios which include the use of external MIDI gear.

The first is using a Roland SPD-SX to remotely trigger Tempest pads for both live performance as well as live sequence recording. I use this setup all the time and it is my primary need. I will test this in the coming days.

The second is using a MIDI Din connected keyboard to control a synth based pad (for bass and lead lines). At the same time, that same pad will be routed via MIDI to an external synth. This arrangement should allow you to control the internal sounds of the Tempest and the sounds of an external device simultaneously. You should be able to play both from either the external keyboard or the pads of the Tempest. This is a setup which seems logical given the available features, but has never really worked well enough for me to take advantage of it. I have tested it briefly and found a number of issues right away:

1) External keyboard pitchbend does not work by default. The official list of fixes seems to indicate that this is intentional, and should be set using mod paths. It was working before, but only on analog OSC 1 & 2. Disabling it for all OSC instead of fixing the digital OSC 3 & 4 seems like a strange way to fix the problem.

2) Unless I’m missing something, choosing intervals (Octave, Fifth, etc.) for the range of your pitchbend seems difficult in terms of + or - 127 as it is available in mod paths.

3) Designating a mod path to control pitchbend skews the original value of the pitch being played on the keys of the external keyboard (while the pitchbend wheel is NOT in use). The greater the value of pitchbend set in the mod path, the further it skews the original pitch of each key on the keyboard.

4) Playing notes on the external keyboard only plays notes on the internal Tempest sound and not the external synth. You can see how in this scenario sending that MIDI data through to the external synth would be highly valuable.

5) Playing the internal and external synth using the Roll/Arp feature plays only the internal sounds using the Roll/Arp and plays the external synth using the action of the pad being pressed. The external synth will only play the Roll/Arp after it has been recorded and it then is played by the sequencer.

These are just some early findings. I will test this more thoroughly soon. In any case, you can see how some of these are bugs and some are user expected behavior. I’m guessing that the reaction to most of this will be centered around the Tempest being a drum machine first and foremost… but if that is the case, I think it would be helpful to have a good explanation for why Polyphonic MIDI Keyboard control and note based external MIDI sequencing are included. I would really love to use the Tempest in the manner described above.

Stoss · « **Reply #44 on:** July 05, 2016, 07:00:29 PM »

Also... In case I haven't been clear enough in some of my other posts (maybe on the old forum)... Roger... You are the absolute best. The Tempest is an extension of how I perform. I love it so much. Your genuine care for the people involved and the topics being discussed has left a permanent impression on me. Thank you.

Steven Morris · « **Reply #45 on:** July 06, 2016, 01:07:05 AM »

A couple of ongoing things:

1. The accent is nearly nonexistent in the click
After each update, it seems to have become more and more infrequent, and now I think I heard it once after playing with the Tempest for a couple of hours.

2. Sustained notes don't sustain indefinitely
If I hold a pad down for 8 bars and record it, it will not last 8 bars. In my test today, it lasted until the end of measure 3.1. This is with no other voices happening. I haven't tested this with the voice outs yet. I understand this is a drum machine, but it would be a nice feature because it would allow for hi-strings and/or ambient soundscapes.

I know both of these things are super minor, I just thought I'd report them anyways.

Thanks for all of the good work on the Tempest lately!

Roger_Linn · « **Reply #46 on:** July 06, 2016, 03:32:40 PM »

Quote from: Stoss on July 05, 2016, 06:41:30 PM

I will be more thoroughly testing some use case scenarios which include the use of external MIDI gear.

The first is using a Roland SPD-SX to remotely trigger Tempest pads for both live performance as well as live sequence recording. I use this setup all the time and it is my primary need. I will test this in the coming days.

The second is using a MIDI Din connected keyboard to control a synth based pad (for bass and lead lines). At the same time, that same pad will be routed via MIDI to an external synth. This arrangement should allow you to control the internal sounds of the Tempest and the sounds of an external device simultaneously. You should be able to play both from either the external keyboard or the pads of the Tempest. This is a setup which seems logical given the available features, but has never really worked well enough for me to take advantage of it. I have tested it briefly and found a number of issues right away:

1) External keyboard pitchbend does not work by default. The official list of fixes seems to indicate that this is intentional, and should be set using mod paths. It was working before, but only on analog OSC 1 & 2. Disabling it for all OSC instead of fixing the digital OSC 3 & 4 seems like a strange way to fix the problem.

2) Unless I’m missing something, choosing intervals (Octave, Fifth, etc.) for the range of your pitchbend seems difficult in terms of + or - 127 as it is available in mod paths.

3) Designating a mod path to control pitchbend skews the original value of the pitch being played on the keys of the external keyboard (while the pitchbend wheel is NOT in use). The greater the value of pitchbend set in the mod path, the further it skews the original pitch of each key on the keyboard.

RL: This one answers your points 1, 2 and 3. Pitch Bend Range is set in the Pitchbend Amt field, located in the last page of the Sounds pages. (Pad Function = 16 Sounds and Screens = Sounds, then press Page Down repeatedly until last page.) By default, this is enabled and set to +/- 2 semitones when you create a new Sound, Beat or Project.

4) Playing notes on the external keyboard only plays notes on the internal Tempest sound and not the external synth. You can see how in this scenario sending that MIDI data through to the external synth would be highly valuable.

RL: As you guessed below, my answer is that you are asking for a feature of a sequencer but Tempest is a drum machine. While your request and many other sequencing-related requests would certainly be useful, I prefer to focus on making Tempest the best drum machine it can be, rather than try to make it into something it was not designed for. Please also see below for a fuller explanation. I hope you understand.

5) Playing the internal and external synth using the Roll/Arp feature plays only the internal sounds using the Roll/Arp and plays the external synth using the action of the pad being pressed. The external synth will only play the Roll/Arp after it has been recorded and it then is played by the sequencer.

RL: I agree that given Tempest's ability to play a remote synth from the sound pads, it makes sense for the MIDI messages sent out to reflect the settings of the Arpeggiator/Roll. This is on our internal list and I thank you for letting me know.

These are just some early findings. I will test this more thoroughly soon. In any case, you can see how some of these are bugs and some are user expected behavior. I’m guessing that the reaction to most of this will be centered around the Tempest being a drum machine first and foremost… but if that is the case, I think it would be helpful to have a good explanation for why Polyphonic MIDI Keyboard control and note based external MIDI sequencing are included. I would really love to use the Tempest in the manner described above.

RL: That is certainly a valid question. Yes, polyphonic MIDI keyboard play is included because 1) pitched play from an external MIDI keyboard is a common feature in drum machines, 2) Tempest's voices are highly capable keyboard voices from a company that mainly makes keyboards, and 3) restricting external play to only one of Tempest's voices (monophonic) leaving the other 5 voices idle would have been unreasonably limiting. And yes, we also included external MIDI control of the sound pads while recording simple monophonic pitched lines (recording only Note On and Note Off messages), because it is merely an extension of the "16 Tunings" feature. However, a MIDI sequencer is very different, with sequencing features like multiple tracks, polyphonic recording, recording or editing of continuous events like Pitch Bend or CCs, lots of sequencer-focused editing and routing features, and also requiring quite a bit more RAM, CPU power and cost. From the beginning Tempest was never intended to be a MIDI sequencer like my MPC products but rather a very capable analog drum machine that is focused on live performance. I hope you understand.

Hi Stoss,
Thank you for your post, as well as for your kind words in your subsequent post. Please see my responses inserted after each of the points you raised above.

Roger_Linn · « **Reply #47 on:** July 06, 2016, 03:46:41 PM »

Quote from: Steven Morris on July 06, 2016, 01:07:05 AM

A couple of ongoing things:

1. The accent is nearly nonexistent in the click
After each update, it seems to have become more and more infrequent, and now I think I heard it once after playing with the Tempest for a couple of hours.

RL: Yes, I find that particularly bothersome. It is on our list.

2. Sustained notes don't sustain indefinitely
If I hold a pad down for 8 bars and record it, it will not last 8 bars. In my test today, it lasted until the end of measure 3.1. This is with no other voices happening. I haven't tested this with the voice outs yet. I understand this is a drum machine, but it would be a nice feature because it would allow for hi-strings and/or ambient soundscapes.

RL: I'm sorry to report that, given Tempest's focus as a drum machine and not a MIDI sequencer, it internal uses only 8 bits to store each note's duration, which limits durations to 255 ticks of 24ppq each, which works out to about 2-1/2 bars of 4/4. However, we are aware of a related bug: if you record in real-time a duration that exceeds that maximum, the resulting recorded duration will be the actual duration minus 255 (or 2x or 3x 255 if the recorded value was higher). For example, if you record a duration of 3 bars of 4/4 (3 x 96 ticks = 288), the recorded event will contain a duration value of 288 - 255 = 33 ticks. Ouch. Also, editing the note's duration value in the Beat Events screen limits the maximum value to 192, instead of the correct maximum of 255. Both of these are on our bug list.

I know both of these things are super minor, I just thought I'd report them anyways.

RL: And I appreciate it.

Thanks for all of the good work on the Tempest lately!

Hi Steve,
Thank you for the bug report. Please see my responses inserted above.

Stoss · « **Reply #48 on:** July 06, 2016, 06:34:40 PM »

Quote from: Roger_Linn on July 06, 2016, 03:32:40 PM

From the beginning Tempest was never intended to be a MIDI sequencer like my MPC products but rather a very capable analog drum machine that is focused on live performance. I hope you understand.

I understand, though some original design specs and other additions to the software definitely point to live performance and sequencing intent that extends beyond just drum related sounds.

I'd like to point out that this item may indeed be a bug that needs testing:
3) Designating a mod path to control pitchbend skews the original value of the pitch being played on the keys of the external keyboard (while the pitchbend wheel is NOT in use). The greater the value of pitchbend set in the mod path, the further it skews the original pitch of each key on the keyboard.

Thanks for everything you are doing Roger!

Jan Schultink · « **Reply #49 on:** July 07, 2016, 09:15:48 AM »

All your efforts are greatly appreciated Roger

Roger_Linn · « **Reply #50 on:** July 07, 2016, 11:34:15 AM »

Quote from: Stoss on July 06, 2016, 06:34:40 PM

I'd like to point out that this item may indeed be a bug that needs testing:
3) Designating a mod path to control pitchbend skews the original value of the pitch being played on the keys of the external keyboard (while the pitchbend wheel is NOT in use). The greater the value of pitchbend set in the mod path, the further it skews the original pitch of each key on the keyboard.

I just tested it here and unfortunately found no such problem. In Mod Paths, I have Source = MIDI Pitch Bend and Destination = Osc All Freq and find no pitch change (with pitch wheel in resting center position) regardless of Amount setting, yet pitch is correctly increased with received positive bend values and decreased with received negative bend values. Note that I also have Pitchbend Amt (in the last Sounds screen) set to zero so as not to use Pitch Bend modulation twice. What are you doing differently that causes this bug to occur?

Stoss · « **Reply #51 on:** July 07, 2016, 04:54:20 PM »

Quote from: Roger_Linn on July 07, 2016, 11:34:15 AM

Quote from: Stoss on July 06, 2016, 06:34:40 PM
I'd like to point out that this item may indeed be a bug that needs testing:
3) Designating a mod path to control pitchbend skews the original value of the pitch being played on the keys of the external keyboard (while the pitchbend wheel is NOT in use). The greater the value of pitchbend set in the mod path, the further it skews the original pitch of each key on the keyboard.
I just tested it here and unfortunately found no such problem. In Mod Paths, I have Source = MIDI Pitch Bend and Destination = Osc All Freq and find no pitch change (with pitch wheel in resting center position) regardless of Amount setting, yet pitch is correctly increased with received positive bend values and decreased with received negative bend values. Note that I also have Pitchbend Amt (in the last Sounds screen) set to zero so as not to use Pitch Bend modulation twice. What are you doing differently that causes this bug to occur?

I tried this out pretty quickly using my brother's MIDI setup last weekend. I just moved and did not have access to my MIDI controllers. Yesterday I grabbed all of my gear so now I'll be able to work through some of these things a little better. I'll try to recreate what happened and report back to you. If I find nothing, I'll go back to my brother's setup and see if it was the specific controller that was the problem.

sata_fortuna · « **Reply #52 on:** July 08, 2016, 04:09:38 AM »

I will second Stoss on a point. Since tempest lack a midi through hardware output, a merged midi out + midi through mode option for the hardware din midi out would be of great value for using tempest as a drum machine working with other gear.

Roger_Linn · « **Reply #53 on:** July 08, 2016, 01:21:13 PM »

Quote from: sata_fortuna on July 08, 2016, 04:09:38 AM

I will second Stoss on a point. Since tempest lack a midi through hardware output, a merged midi out + midi through mode option for the hardware din midi out would be of great value for using tempest as a drum machine working with other gear.

I'm confused. If I'm not mistaken, Stoss was asking for a sequencer feature that is normally called "MIDI Echo", in which the selected track echoes its input from the MIDI keyboard back out to the track's assigned external MIDI synth. (Given that Tempest is not a traditional MIDI sequencer and has no tracks, he is presumably asking for an added parameter in the MIDI Poly Keyboard Play screen called something like "Echo input to output".) You've mentioned a different feature that is normally called "MIDI Soft Thru", in which a product without a MIDI Thru jack (like Tempest) has the ability to treat the MIDI Out like a MIDI Thru by having the CPU work to send all received MIDI messages to the MIDI Out port. This is normally implemented in synths; for example, a computer/sequencer would send the various tracks of MIDI data to a number of synths connected in a daisy-chain arrangement, each with MIDI Soft Thru enabled. Which feature are you asking for? My guess is that you'll say "Both".

Stoss · « **Reply #54 on:** July 08, 2016, 09:12:39 PM »

Quote from: Roger_Linn on July 07, 2016, 11:34:15 AM

Quote from: Stoss on July 06, 2016, 06:34:40 PM
I'd like to point out that this item may indeed be a bug that needs testing:
3) Designating a mod path to control pitchbend skews the original value of the pitch being played on the keys of the external keyboard (while the pitchbend wheel is NOT in use). The greater the value of pitchbend set in the mod path, the further it skews the original pitch of each key on the keyboard.
I just tested it here and unfortunately found no such problem. In Mod Paths, I have Source = MIDI Pitch Bend and Destination = Osc All Freq and find no pitch change (with pitch wheel in resting center position) regardless of Amount setting, yet pitch is correctly increased with received positive bend values and decreased with received negative bend values. Note that I also have Pitchbend Amt (in the last Sounds screen) set to zero so as not to use Pitch Bend modulation twice. What are you doing differently that causes this bug to occur?

I just tried this again with my CME Xkeys37. I could not reproduce this problem. I wonder if the other keyboard I was using had a problem with the pitchbend wheel not being set to zero for some reason. That would be a decent explanation for the problem I was seeing. Consider this not a bug. Sorry for the wasted time and energy.

Stoss · « **Reply #55 on:** July 08, 2016, 09:20:20 PM »

I was able to further test the pitchbend function controlled by an external keyboard via MIDI din. It still appears that setting pitchbend using the "PITCHBEND AMT" setting still only adjusts the analog OSC 1 & 2 and does not adjust the digital OSC 3 & 4. This is a bug and affects any bass or lead sounds that utilize the digital OSC which you would like to have pitch based bending controlled by an external keyboard.

Stoss · « **Reply #56 on:** July 09, 2016, 04:29:21 PM »

Snd: Juno Subsquare (From one of the presets)
PITCHBEND AMT = OFF
Mod1: MIDI Pitch Bend / 24 / OSC All Freq
Mod2: MIDI Mod Wheel / 40 / Lowpass Filter

Using an external MIDI keyboard (Xkeys37) I record a simple bass part (on B1) into the sequencer while the Tempest is playing a beat. All records fine. I continue to let the beat and new baseline play and turn OFF the recording. I mess with the sound of the bass line by using the FX sliders. All is good and since I am not recording, nothing happens to the recorded part. I use the Mod Wheel to mess with the sound. Strangely, the Tempest now seems to somehow record or remember some of the Mod Wheel changes. The lowpass settings jump around as the beat plays. I have done nothing to try to record this and it doesn't really behave in a way I would like. I erase the part and record something new. The notes recorded in are what I played, but the screwed up nature of the lowpass continues as it had before. The only way to remove the behavior is to power cycle the Tempest. So I did. I set it up as before but only set Mod1 to control the lowpass filter using the Mod Wheel. This time after I recorded the bassline in, I tried messing with the Mod Wheel again with Rec OFF. I only touch the Mod Wheel for a split second. The strange behavior started happening again and wouldn't stop. Another power cycle fixed the problem.

Hoping this is a reproducible bug and not my Tempest behaving wildly out of control!

Stoss · « **Reply #57 on:** July 09, 2016, 04:50:52 PM »

I just tried some additional testing using a M-Audio Axiom 25. First I set only the PITCHBEND AMT to an Octave. I recorded the bassline then attempted messing with the Pitch using the Pitchbend wheel on the keyboard as the part played with recording set to OFF. Now the pitch of not only the bass part on B1 is jumping around, but also a prerecorded part on B6. Some strange behavior.

Just tested the same Mod1 set to control Lowpass Filter using Mod Wheel on the M-Audio. Same problem as the Xkeys37 as mentioned above.

EDIT: Same behavior confirmed on a totally separate Project / Beat / Sound.

EDIT: I was able to get both the Pitch Bend Wheel and Mod Wheel to screw up multiple pads as described above. I was then able to reset those problems without power cycling the Tempest. I stopped the beat. Played notes on the external keyboard while messing with the Mod Wheel and Pitchbend Wheel making sure to let them come back to normal while still playing a note on the keyboard. Playing the beat and recorded lines then returned to normal.

sata_fortuna · « **Reply #58 on:** July 10, 2016, 07:25:23 PM »

Quote from: Roger_Linn on July 08, 2016, 01:21:13 PM

I'm confused. If I'm not mistaken, Stoss was asking for a sequencer feature that is normally called "MIDI Echo", in which the selected track echoes its input from the MIDI keyboard back out to the track's assigned external MIDI synth. (Given that Tempest is not a traditional MIDI sequencer and has no tracks, he is presumably asking for an added parameter in the MIDI Poly Keyboard Play screen called something like "Echo input to output".) You've mentioned a different feature that is normally called "MIDI Soft Thru", in which a product without a MIDI Thru jack (like Tempest) has the ability to treat the MIDI Out like a MIDI Thru by having the CPU work to send all received MIDI messages to the MIDI Out port. This is normally implemented in synths; for example, a computer/sequencer would send the various tracks of MIDI data to a number of synths connected in a daisy-chain arrangement, each with MIDI Soft Thru enabled. Which feature are you asking for? My guess is that you'll say "Both".

i see. thanks for the explanation. i'm asking for the MIDI soft Thru, i though that feature would solve the problem for Stoss as with it enabled he would be able to do what he wants.

Stoss · « **Reply #59 on:** July 10, 2016, 07:40:15 PM »

Quote from: sata_fortuna on July 10, 2016, 07:25:23 PM

Quote from: Roger_Linn on July 08, 2016, 01:21:13 PM
I'm confused. If I'm not mistaken, Stoss was asking for a sequencer feature that is normally called "MIDI Echo", in which the selected track echoes its input from the MIDI keyboard back out to the track's assigned external MIDI synth. (Given that Tempest is not a traditional MIDI sequencer and has no tracks, he is presumably asking for an added parameter in the MIDI Poly Keyboard Play screen called something like "Echo input to output".) You've mentioned a different feature that is normally called "MIDI Soft Thru", in which a product without a MIDI Thru jack (like Tempest) has the ability to treat the MIDI Out like a MIDI Thru by having the CPU work to send all received MIDI messages to the MIDI Out port. This is normally implemented in synths; for example, a computer/sequencer would send the various tracks of MIDI data to a number of synths connected in a daisy-chain arrangement, each with MIDI Soft Thru enabled. Which feature are you asking for? My guess is that you'll say "Both".
i see. thanks for the explanation. i'm asking for the MIDI soft Thru, i though that feature would solve the problem for Stoss as with it enabled he would be able to do what he wants.

To be clear, I'm not intentionally trying to make a feature request, I'm merely trying to put the Tempest through some different use case scenarios to find potential bugs as well as behavior which is unintuitive, or not what the average user would expect. In the past many quirks were described as "expected behavior" from a programming perspective. I am trying to offer up "expected behavior" from a user perspective for consideration. Roger has been very fair in this regard, while being respectful of the limitations of the equipment, which is understandable.