Tempest Main 1.5.0.2 and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports

RobH

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Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #440 on: March 28, 2017, 01:06:45 AM »
Rob, I am also getting freezes with 1.4.5.2.

I need to do a lot of troubleshooting to ensure it's not a unique user configuration that's causing my freezes.

My freezes occur when syncing Tempest in Playlist mode to Logic Pro 10.3.0 via direct USB. Everything I can think of that is not needed in Tempest and Logic is off. 16 Beats, Events, and Click are also engaged. Tempo is 120bpm.

I simplified my setup by disconnecting my 003 interface, using laptop's headphone out to hear Logic's click. And I removed a USB hub that had a few dongles connected. But, slaving Tempest in Playlist still results in a freeze.

I had another freeze, i was start/stopping abelton a lot (to which my Tempest is USB sync'd) and also nudging it to try and keep it in sync (like you would a record) but i think the freeze happened up a stop/start.

I think my last freeze before this was also when start stopping, so at the moment i am thinking that it has something to do with that.

edit - I dont use playlist mode at all none of my freezes were when i was using this playlist (for developer notes).

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 01:11:32 AM by RobH »

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #441 on: March 28, 2017, 01:57:32 AM »
Hi RobH and dsetto,

I am also banging my head with this frustrating inconsistent behaviour. After having thought I had it under control by reinstalling everything from scratch, this has proved to not be the case. My current line of thinking is a Mac CoreMIDI problem. I am currently running MacOS Sierra 10.12.4, Audio MIDI Setup 3.1, LogicProX 10.3.1.

What I have noticed is that it has again built up over time, I am currently getting through a set/session by going into LogicProX Preferences/MIDI… /General/ Reset All MIDI Drivers.

I also seem to be able to duplicate this ‘fix’, by going into Audio MIDI Setup and setting up a new duplicate configuration.

My only other ‘out there’ line of thinking is in fact noisy USB Ports on Tempest and/or Laptop. Under USB the Tempest will freeze, under DIN it will jump ahead. But this doesn’t explain the behaviour under DIN. I also suspect the implementation of USB software within the Tempest.

I have run out of ideas, but I hope this somehow helps you both.

dsetto

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Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #442 on: March 28, 2017, 02:26:24 AM »
Interesting. RobH is on Windows, I believe.

I am simplifying my Playlist, and not getting freezes where I was consistently getting freezes. I'm taking notes.

--
Okay. I got it to consistently freeze. Then not freeze. Then freeze.

In Summary:
When Playlist was 4 to 18 Steps and 8 to 34 bars, it did *not* freeze in my 2-3 min tests.

BUT, when I added 4 steps, 4 Bars, putting the Playlist at 20 Steps and 36 Bars, it froze at 2:20.
When I added 1 step of 1 bar at a time, I got to a Playlist of 20 steps/36 Bars, and freezing occurred at Logic measure 188, or 6min15sec. (Later than originally; with a different End instruction.)


By the way, in these last series where it wasn't freezing and then froze, "End = Loop to Step 1".

In my previous post where I had about 12 freezes out of 13 Playlist USB Slave attempts, the Playlist had:
- 32 Steps
- 48 Bars
- End: Loop to Step 17


That last bit on Playlist End setting is not pertinent, I believe. However, I believe the larger number of steps and/or Bars may be a factor leading to the freezing I am observing.

---
Sorry for the excess detail. I am trying to present it in such a way so that it can be corroborated or disproven by others.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 03:35:52 AM by dsetto »

RobH

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Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #443 on: March 28, 2017, 03:07:29 AM »
I am on windows correct. I am not getting freeze after freeze they are maybe a couple a night on average. I am however getting them. The midi clock was adjusted to make the first beat not late I presume it probably has something to do with that.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #444 on: March 28, 2017, 04:32:09 AM »
Hi dsetto,

Just did a very quick test:
Playlist at 20 Steps and 36 Bars with "End = Loop to Step 1" – You got FREEZE (I got jumping because I am going through MIDI DIN after first pass)
Playlist at 18 Steps and to 34 bars – You got no freeze (I got jumping straight away) also Reseting All MIDI Drivers did not help  :(

If only it would just come up with program alarm 1202. Sigh...

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #445 on: March 28, 2017, 09:11:41 AM »
Hi RobH and dsetto,

All I can do now is hypothesis as I have tried everything I can think of.

So here’s another ‘out there’ theory as my brain is turning to mush. Seeing as LucidSFX has had some problems with a particular sound/pad. What if the Voice_1.5 update triggers the crash when giving a particular sound (or sound with a specific parameter) a certain priority. This would go someway to looking like random behaviour.

This would mean we would be getting problems on specific Beats ocasionally. I will keep an eye out for this.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #446 on: March 28, 2017, 10:23:28 AM »
Unfotunately another freeze happened to my tempest, I had been running the same loop for a good few minutes without touching the tempest, i was sync'd to live and i was in the event screen when it froze although it had been left like that for some minutes while i tinkered with other instruments, the only thing i can think i did was stop and start abelton, then the Tempest just froze.

Sorry I have no more details about this but i hadn't touched it for some minutes.

There is some noise coming from the tempest like a slight noise i might have had going on a lfo or modulation/envelope that is still eminating from my Tempest but screen is frozen as are all other functions, a hard boot is needed again.

Did you try the iPhone / iPad MIDI Link Sync app?  You'll need an Apple camera kit so you can attach the Tempest via USB, making sure Tempest is the Master.  Yorgos tried it and said it provides rock solid, really tight sync ;)


Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #447 on: March 28, 2017, 10:32:41 AM »
^ Just make sure you create a direct ad hoc connection between your PC/Mac and your idevice..Of course that means no router involved ;)

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #448 on: March 28, 2017, 03:39:26 PM »
if you record 16th triplets with 16T Quantize, it won't affect them.
Hi Roger.

I tested this again and it doesn't seem right. If you record 16th Triplets into the Tempest using Quantize of 16T it sounds good with swing set to 50%. When you turn up the swing it effects those 16th Triplet notes... It seems to push the 2nd and 3rd triplet both toward the upcoming 1st triplet in the next grouping. When adjusting swing, instead of only affecting 16th notes at the #2, #4, #6 etc. locations, it seems to rather be affecting all things that are not at the #1, #3, #5, etc. locations.

Please test and clarify if you can. Thanks!
Hi Stoss--

You're right. I had forgotten about that. As I recall, there was some disagreement about the implementation of playback swing and the implementation ended up delaying all notes that existed within a timing window extending from the straight 16ths through swung 16ths, which has the advantage of swinging non-quantized 16ths. I don't like it as much but I see merits both ways.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #449 on: March 28, 2017, 04:20:41 PM »
Hi Roger! Thanks for taking the time to explain how these things work and why they are implemented the way they are. The latest beta is really good and running like a charm. The fixed lfo sync propelled the Tempest even further into greatness. I'm having so much fun with it as a groove box and poly synth. It's capable of very unique sounds.

I have a question regarding time signatures on functions. Was is it intended that lfo only has dotted quarter notes and not dotted 8ths?and for beat roll and quantise settings? I guess dotted would be harder to implement as quantise setting. Would be very nice to have more dotted options in the LFO's though since it would introduce the possibility for polymeter like structures.

Thanks again for this machine and the energy you have put in!
Hi IDM,

Part of the answer is that when I originally designed Tempest's workflow and UI, I didn't include any dotted options at all for the LFO rate. Why? Because dotted options seem better suited to synced delays than synced LFOs, and it was my original goal to keep Tempest fairly simple to use. Interestingly, I never included any LFOs in any of my previous drum machines. Not in the MPC, LinnDrum or LM-1. Why? Because I never found an LFO to be very useful in a drum machine, a product intended for percussive sounds.

When DSI implemented the software, they tried to honor as many customer requests as they could, but with the small staff and demands of a small business, probably only dotted-quarter LFO got squeezed into a release deadline but not dotted 8th LFO. I don't recall if anyone ever requested dotted Note Quantize or Beat Roll values. Of course when people saw dotted quarter LFO but not dotted 8th LFO, they said "Why does the LFO have dotted quarters but not dotted eights?"

So the follow-up question is "Why don't you add dotted 8th LFO now?" and for someone else the question is "Why don't you add/fix ______ now?" The answer to both was alluded to in Dave's recent post about ceasing Tempest development:

"we’ve reached what we consider the limits of the instrument's available memory and processing ability".

Here's a little more detail about that. In an effort to honor as many customers' feature requests as possible, Tempest ended up being far more complex than originally expected, and all the added features have used up the available memory space and CPU power. So any new change requires rewriting other existing features to fit into less space, thereby reclaiming memory space to fit in the new change. And that has the chance of causing new bugs in the rewritten features. Also, some changes overtax the CPU, which can cause other real-time problems. DSI has been doing this "rewrite then fix" dance for a while now, and all the easy reclamations have been done. So any further changes are very difficult and I've seen how hard DSI has tried. 

So the bad news is that it’s very difficult to make any further changes to Tempest. The good news is that if you look at the sum total of Tempest's capabilities, workflow and feature set, it's pretty amazing and in my opinion unequaled, even if there are things that each of us would prefer to fix or change or add. In retrospect, perhaps we should have politely declined to implement most feature requests. Or perhaps we should have used a faster CPU and more memory, but I don't think people would have wanted to pay $2200 or more for a Tempest. Interestingly, I've run out of memory space and CPU power on every drum machine I've ever made.

dslsynth

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Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #450 on: March 28, 2017, 04:28:35 PM »
Interestingly, I've run out of memory space and CPU power on every drum machine I've ever made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law

. o O ( ;) )
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature

Stoss

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Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #451 on: March 28, 2017, 05:04:04 PM »
if you record 16th triplets with 16T Quantize, it won't affect them.
Hi Roger.

I tested this again and it doesn't seem right. If you record 16th Triplets into the Tempest using Quantize of 16T it sounds good with swing set to 50%. When you turn up the swing it effects those 16th Triplet notes... It seems to push the 2nd and 3rd triplet both toward the upcoming 1st triplet in the next grouping. When adjusting swing, instead of only affecting 16th notes at the #2, #4, #6 etc. locations, it seems to rather be affecting all things that are not at the #1, #3, #5, etc. locations.

Please test and clarify if you can. Thanks!
Hi Stoss--

You're right. I had forgotten about that. As I recall, there was some disagreement about the implementation of playback swing and the implementation ended up delaying all notes that existed within a timing window extending from the straight 16ths through swung 16ths, which has the advantage of swinging non-quantized 16ths. I don't like it as much but I see merits both ways.
Well, I'm in complete agreement with you on how it should have been handled. Bummer that this design decision had to be negotiated.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #452 on: March 28, 2017, 05:17:58 PM »
In truth, Dave's guys are very savvy and had valuable contributions to the design. I'm 61 so they were more familiar with younger musicians' ways of working, which was very helpful.

dsetto

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Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #453 on: March 28, 2017, 05:18:11 PM »
The moment I began seeing Roger Linn's face on this forum, and more importantly, his intelligence expressed via his communication, applied towards bringing Tempest OS to a close - along with the invaluable JohnTheSavage - I knew it was time I buy one.

I am glad I did.

I believe the explanation above should be a sticky. As far as I am concerned, it's an outstanding explanation characterizing the state of Tempest.

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #454 on: March 28, 2017, 05:23:41 PM »
Thank you for your kind words, dsetto.

Stoss

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Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #455 on: March 28, 2017, 05:43:59 PM »
In truth, Dave's guys are very savvy and had valuable contributions to the design. I'm 61 so they were more familiar with younger musicians' ways of working, which was very helpful.
I guess I'll need to look to the younger musicians to show me how swinging triplets on the Tempest can actually sound good.😉

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #456 on: March 28, 2017, 05:52:45 PM »
When DSI implemented the software, they tried to honor as many customer requests as they could, but with the small staff and demands of a small business, probably only dotted-quarter LFO got squeezed into a release deadline but not dotted 8th LFO. I don't recall if anyone ever requested dotted Note Quantize or Beat Roll values. Of course when people saw dotted quarter LFO but not dotted 8th LFO, they said "Why does the LFO have dotted quarters but not dotted eights?"

So the follow-up question is "Why don't you add dotted 8th LFO now?" and for someone else the question is "Why don't you add/fix ______ now?" The answer to both was alluded to in Dave's recent post about ceasing Tempest development:

"we’ve reached what we consider the limits of the instrument's available memory and processing ability".

Here's a little more detail about that. In an effort to honor as many customers' feature requests as possible, Tempest ended up being far more complex than originally expected, and all the added features have used up the available memory space and CPU power. So any new change requires rewriting other existing features to fit into less space, thereby reclaiming memory space to fit in the new change. And that has the chance of causing new bugs in the rewritten features. Also, some changes overtax the CPU, which can cause other real-time problems. DSI has been doing this "rewrite then fix" dance for a while now, and all the easy reclamations have been done. So any further changes are very difficult and I've seen how hard DSI has tried. 

So the bad news is that it’s very difficult to make any further changes to Tempest. The good news is that if you look at the sum total of Tempest's capabilities, workflow and feature set, it's pretty amazing and in my opinion unequaled, even if there are things that each of us would prefer to fix or change or add. In retrospect, perhaps we should have politely declined to implement most feature requests. Or perhaps we should have used a faster CPU and more memory, but I don't think people would have wanted to pay $2200 or more for a Tempest. Interestingly, I've run out of memory space and CPU power on every drum machine I've ever made.

There's some interesting info hidden between the lines here:
  • The drum computer market in the 201X decade is extremely price-conscious above $2K
  • No amount of memory and processing power is sufficient, given the features requested by end-users
  • Beyond the max memory / processing power threshold, bug fixes as well as new features cost at least double to implement

So the question is: is there another tier of product design / price point at which a manufacturer can recoup one's development costs on a no-compromise drum computer / sequencer / synthesizer / sampler / kitchen sink, a la the Linn 9000, for example? Or is the Tempest as good as it gets for the money that most are willing to spend?
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #457 on: March 28, 2017, 06:19:57 PM »
By mentioning the Linn 9000, you have identified your age! :)

It's always a trick finding the sweet spot between features and price. Ikutaro Kakehashi, the founder of Roland and one of the wisest and kindest people I've ever met, told me once that it's easier to make a product that has everything, but much harder to make the difficult choices and creative compromises required to deliver just enough functionality for a price people can afford. My personal goal with my instruments is to have a positive impact on music, but often the musicians who end up making that positive impact have the least money before they get there. So I don't really want to make the no-compromise drum machine that only a doctor or lawyer can afford.

Sometimes I jokingly say that if I won the lottery, I'd do the same thing I do now except that:
1) I'd spend the money required to make each product perfect,
2) I'd price the products at whatever price people say they want to pay for them, and
3) I'd simply lose money every month. :)

idm

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #458 on: March 29, 2017, 08:53:23 AM »
By mentioning the Linn 9000, you have identified your age! :)

It's always a trick finding the sweet spot between features and price. Ikutaro Kakehashi, the founder of Roland and one of the wisest and kindest people I've ever met, told me once that it's easier to make a product that has everything, but much harder to make the difficult choices and creative compromises required to deliver just enough functionality for a price people can afford. My personal goal with my instruments is to have a positive impact on music, but often the musicians who end up making that positive impact have the least money before they get there. So I don't really want to make the no-compromise drum machine that only a doctor or lawyer can afford.

Sometimes I jokingly say that if I won the lottery, I'd do the same thing I do now except that:
1) I'd spend the money required to make each product perfect,
2) I'd price the products at whatever price people say they want to pay for them, and
3) I'd simply lose money every month. :)

:D Roger, again thank you for your time and complete answer to my question and the additional info surrounding it. It's clear to me now and has hopefully put some questions to rest for others as well.

The Tempest is a very unique piece of gear and I'm glad I finally bought one :). Just did a live set last weekend with just the Tempest on it's own. It was a liberating feeling to be able to make live music in that way without any laptop and having to really tweak and take leaps on the fly.

Thanks again, and curious to see your future instruments. Cheers, Dave

Re: Tempest Main 1.4.4b and Voice 1.5 - Bug Reports
« Reply #459 on: March 29, 2017, 09:52:05 AM »
Thanks, Dave. It is very gratifying to see Tempest used so widely in live performance, which was my intent.

And I'm looking forward to seeing my future instruments too. :)