Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...

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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #680 on: May 28, 2018, 12:25:41 PM »
I know that some of you will be facepalming me now, and with good reason because I've decided to drop Eurorack... the reasons are those that I feared when I ventured into it... I have a VERY hard time not having any serious polyphony... the second reason is those darn presets.

My creativity is destroyed when I have to patch everything over and over again, it's that simple. I really do like the variety in sound you can get, but it takes a lot of modules, and to patch them simply kill my eagerness to compose... also I can see that no matter how many modules I get, there will always be something lacking with a compact system, and I do want a compact solution because I want ease of use... I'm tired of technicalities...

So I'm selling out at the moment... luckilty i did not spend a greater fortune on this, and at least I've tried it out so I know it's not really for me anyway.

I've decided instead, that I'm going back to the Prophet REV2 ... will buy one again in a week or two, and then I will not be buying anything again for a straight 6 months (at least), promising myself that I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING AGAIN until I've actually done some projects with the REV2... just pure ambient synth music.

When these projects have been done, and those 6 months have passed, I'll know if I miss anything in particular... if not, I'll just stick with the REV2 as my only synth... if I feel I need some digital sound generators for wavetable and FM, I'll buy a Prophet 12 to complement... if I feel I miss some kind of sample oscillator, I'll buy a Prophet X as well... but all in all I'll not buy more than 3 synths... my soundcard allow for 3 stereo analog inputs, and I still want my setup to be compact... three will be enough... maybe even one...

There is no need to try and talk me out of selling the Eurorack stuff... the selling has already begun, and I'm perfectly fine with it... it was nice trying it out, but it's just not for me :)

I think I'm in the same boat in regards to modular. Synths like the Oberheim TVS and ARP Odyssey or any synth that doesn't have presets I always try and keep relatively standard in set up so that if I need to change a patch it's fairly quick. You could also document stuff with pictures as well.

But pure modular...ugh...my god each set up would eat up so much time that you could spend actually writing or recording. I was looking into modular stuff like the Doepfer A-100 system but I realized that I'd mostly would be using it for background sequences and noise while other stuff played over it. I can achieve the same effect and sounds by a number of other instruments that actually have memory and presets.

Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #681 on: May 28, 2018, 12:41:31 PM »
That was quick Razmo ;)

For me eurorack is good for messing around, itís fun. For useing it to make music it has a severe number of problems.

I have coded up a Roland Supersaw module on the Bela Salt and just spent an hour messing around with it, sequences, different filters etc. Good fun.

It needs polyphony though, so I thought I will just add a simple chord mode mixed out to a eurorack filter, then I thought hang on I could just code up a nice filter for each supersaw and a couple of envelopes, then I need a way of triggering it polyphonically, Iíll just add midi in. Then I realised Iím coding up a bloody synth to sit in the rack just to get polyphony, whatís the point in that!

That to me is the problem with modular gear.

Have you thought of something like the Nord G2, not as much fun as eurorack but a million times more versatile.

Razmo

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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #682 on: May 28, 2018, 02:03:35 PM »
That was quick Razmo ;)

For me eurorack is good for messing around, itís fun. For useing it to make music it has a severe number of problems.

I have coded up a Roland Supersaw module on the Bela Salt and just spent an hour messing around with it, sequences, different filters etc. Good fun.

It needs polyphony though, so I thought I will just add a simple chord mode mixed out to a eurorack filter, then I thought hang on I could just code up a nice filter for each supersaw and a couple of envelopes, then I need a way of triggering it polyphonically, Iíll just add midi in. Then I realised Iím coding up a bloody synth to sit in the rack just to get polyphony, whatís the point in that!

That to me is the problem with modular gear.

Have you thought of something like the Nord G2, not as much fun as eurorack but a million times more versatile.

That is exactly it... it's not very convenient for making music, and especially not ambient music with loads of pad sounds, chords etc... i should have known it in advance, and that is what I'm still "hitting myself" with... why the hell did I not see this coming!? ... maybe because I thought I'd just supplement the modular with a polysynth... but thinking about it now, I know that if I get one to complement it, I'll slowly but securely stop using the modular, as it is much faster to get a new sound by browsing presets.... yes you may need to tweak them a bit, but that's even faster than patching up every darn track in a composition with a modular... maybe this is also why I see so few modular only demos with actual music in them.

About the Nord Modular... I've had both MicroModular, Modular G1 Keys and Modular G1 rack... they are really really good sounding machines, with huge loads of presets available... But again... patching is the same as on a modular in physical form, except you can save the setups of course... it takes too much time to program it, I know I'll end up using only the available presets which is not what I'm after... the G2 also has a problem in that it's dependent on a USB driver... not ready to start down that road again... Sound Diver that I'm going to use is more than enough for me regarding "old software" :D ... and lastly... I don't want anything 100% digital... Analog and Hybrid is a minimum.

No... I'll start with the REV2... I know it... I've had it... I still have my editor for it... the same goes for the Prophet 12... The REV2 will give me a lot of what I need... I may get a P12 or X to complement, but I will not take that decision until the first 6 months has passed creating loads of presets and making some compositions :)
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #683 on: May 28, 2018, 02:11:11 PM »
I know that some of you will be facepalming me now, and with good reason because I've decided to drop Eurorack... the reasons are those that I feared when I ventured into it... I have a VERY hard time not having any serious polyphony... the second reason is those darn presets.

My creativity is destroyed when I have to patch everything over and over again, it's that simple. I really do like the variety in sound you can get, but it takes a lot of modules, and to patch them simply kill my eagerness to compose... also I can see that no matter how many modules I get, there will always be something lacking with a compact system, and I do want a compact solution because I want ease of use... I'm tired of technicalities...

So I'm selling out at the moment... luckilty i did not spend a greater fortune on this, and at least I've tried it out so I know it's not really for me anyway.

I've decided instead, that I'm going back to the Prophet REV2 ... will buy one again in a week or two, and then I will not be buying anything again for a straight 6 months (at least), promising myself that I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING AGAIN until I've actually done some projects with the REV2... just pure ambient synth music.

When these projects have been done, and those 6 months have passed, I'll know if I miss anything in particular... if not, I'll just stick with the REV2 as my only synth... if I feel I need some digital sound generators for wavetable and FM, I'll buy a Prophet 12 to complement... if I feel I miss some kind of sample oscillator, I'll buy a Prophet X as well... but all in all I'll not buy more than 3 synths... my soundcard allow for 3 stereo analog inputs, and I still want my setup to be compact... three will be enough... maybe even one...

There is no need to try and talk me out of selling the Eurorack stuff... the selling has already begun, and I'm perfectly fine with it... it was nice trying it out, but it's just not for me :)

I think I'm in the same boat in regards to modular. Synths like the Oberheim TVS and ARP Odyssey or any synth that doesn't have presets I always try and keep relatively standard in set up so that if I need to change a patch it's fairly quick. You could also document stuff with pictures as well.

But pure modular...ugh...my god each set up would eat up so much time that you could spend actually writing or recording. I was looking into modular stuff like the Doepfer A-100 system but I realized that I'd mostly would be using it for background sequences and noise while other stuff played over it. I can achieve the same effect and sounds by a number of other instruments that actually have memory and presets.

Exactly... That is what I found out as well... I can do anything I've been doing with the modular with a REV2, plus I'll get presets and polyphony on top... of course I could patch things up i cannot do exactly the same on the REV2, but soundwise I can do the same... afterall the modular I had was also analog oscillators of the common type, filters, VCAs, LFOs etc... often I ended up with approximately the same signal path anyway... OSC into mixer into filter into VCA... modulated by modulators...

I do accept though, that with a modular system you can get a very personal sound from it, because you can mix and match many different manufacturers together in a patch, and even do some routings you will not find in a synth like REV2, but in the end I'm not after being able to do everything, just a lot within the sound genre I'm trying to do... REV2 will easily do that for me... in fact, the only thing I think I could REALLY benefit from, are sample oscillators (Prophet X), so that I can incorporate voices, real life noises etc... even the P12 is crossing lots of territory with the REV2 ... but the Wavetables, FM and audio rate modulation is what is drawing me back to it.... if it was not for the REV2's FX and analog oscillators, the P12 could have done it without the need for the REV2 ... but I've had the P12 in the past... and I know how it sounds, and I know that the REV2 has a sound that the P12 will not deliver especially in the very high registers.
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #684 on: May 28, 2018, 02:23:40 PM »
. o O ( GAO )
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #685 on: May 28, 2018, 03:23:27 PM »
I've missed your exploration into modular sound design.  Your reasons to return sound sound. Sound Paths & Result vs Practicality vs Personal Music Goals = Journey.

Wish you the best.

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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #686 on: May 28, 2018, 10:55:37 PM »
Wow Razmo, I love the way you figure all this out and keep experimenting without ever giving up. I really enjoyed reading about your adventures in sound design fairy land. Though I must admit some of the stuff you wrote sounded coming from another planet  ;). But that is just my own in-experience coming through.

In your last few posts I did find something I could directly relate to. As a computer professional I seem to "suffer" a bit from what I would call "patch saving angst". Redundancy, backups of backups of backups, and so on is one of my themes in the IT world. So far I only own synths that can save patches to some kind of memory, which I backup of course to my laptop and Dropbox etc. Of course being able to re-produce the sounds exactly as I designed them for a track I wrote years ago can come in very handy (I did surprise my producer already a few times being able to re-produce a sound exactly as  I intended and he remembered).

My next purchase though will be a low-risk departure from that. I have a Behringer Neutron on order, as far as I understand this is a nice and relatively cost effective way into some kind of modular experience. I am very interested to see how I (psychologically and emotionally) will deal with a hardware patch-able synth without any backup facility. I could always take a picture of course, but that is not the point.

Sound design for me is an integral part of composing a song. I rarely re-use a patch I created before. I just love to twiddle and dial in new sounds for a particular mood I am creating. For me the time spent in sound design is part of the composing workload  :).
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #687 on: May 28, 2018, 11:23:59 PM »
Wow Razmo, I love the way you figure all this out and keep experimenting without ever giving up. I really enjoyed reading about your adventures in sound design fairy land. Though I must admit some of the stuff you wrote sounded coming from another planet  ;). But that is just my own in-experience coming through.

In your last few posts I did find something I could directly relate to. As a computer professional I seem to "suffer" a bit from what I would call "patch saving angst". Redundancy, backups of backups of backups, and so on is one of my themes in the IT world. So far I only own synths that can save patches to some kind of memory, which I backup of course to my laptop and Dropbox etc. Of course being able to re-produce the sounds exactly as I designed them for a track I wrote years ago can come in very handy (I did surprise my producer already a few times being able to re-produce a sound exactly as  I intended and he remembered).

My next purchase though will be a low-risk departure from that. I have a Behringer Neutron on order, as far as I understand this is a nice and relatively cost effective way into some kind of modular experience. I am very interested to see how I (psychologically and emotionally) will deal with a hardware patch-able synth without any backup facility. I could always take a picture of course, but that is not the point.

Sound design for me is an integral part of composing a song. I rarely re-use a patch I created before. I just love to twiddle and dial in new sounds for a particular mood I am creating. For me the time spent in sound design is part of the composing workload  :).

Well, I always used a different approach to sound design, and that may also be why I'm having a problem with eurorack... I allways separated sound design and composing.... the sound design phase I really enjoy, and I like using computer editors with all parameters on the screen at the same time... this way I have a good overview of everything, and I can go into VERY tiny details in perfecting a sound... I could easily use 1-2 hours on a preset this way... i see sound design as an artform in itself, and I never created a specific sound for a specific job... that is why I always need huge amounts of available presets to browse when I'm in the composing phase, otherwise I'll not be able to find a sound that fits the score.

With eurorack, I had really much fun when designing the first sound of a track... I can not create sounds in advance in the modular world, which is both good and bad... sounds become much more tailored to the score, but after the first track has been laid down, I already have ideas for the next track, and want to quickly start playing on top with other sounds, and that's where it gets frustrating because you have to repatch the whole thing and spend too much time getting that sound right... it destroys my intuitiveness.

Then is the problem with chords/pads... these are essential for the style I'm doing... I thought I could do with just using drones or pre-programmed chord progressions from an oscillator module with 3 or more oscillators, but it's not very performance oriented... i miss to be able to play the chord progressions on the keyboard, actually performing them... modular gets a bit too "robotic" when it comes to arrangements of chords.

If I was to still have a small modular system, it would be for one purpose only; experimenting with repeating sequences and drones, and only for recording samples of it, using them in say; a Prophet X at some point, because you do have the ability to produce some interesting sounds that is not possible with standard synths... but that will not likely happen, as it requires a system of at least a decent size to create something interesting. I may very well keep my Waldorf KB37 just for this in the future, but I'd be choosing very different modules in that case, since the sounds I would want to experiment with are very different to what I have in the KB37 right now.

Right now, the only thing I'm trying to figure out is if I should get the REV2 in module or key version... I'd really like to put the KB37 aside, and only have the keys version in front of me for the next 6 months... but then I'd need both the Prophet 12 & X to be module versions if I get them in the future (probably will I think), otherwise I shall keep using the KB37 with a module version, and end with the key-change for when getting the Prophet X ... my problem is that I'm still not sure if the Prophet X will ever be available in a module form, and if it does come out, the interface will definitely be cut down like it was with the P12 module which unfortunately could be bad if it is not 100% fully controllable via SysEx... so the best solution is probably to get a REV2 module, a P12 module, and wait with the switch in keys until I have the money for the Prophet X keys.
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #688 on: May 29, 2018, 04:02:29 AM »
I'm a bit perplexed... when i look at the store where I'm going to buy the REV2 8-voice module, it's actually cheaper to buy the 8-voice version + an expansion option, than bying a 16-voice version to begin with... that's pretty weird really.
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #689 on: May 29, 2018, 05:40:38 AM »
Integrated sound design during creation and philosophy of user presets, has been on my mind lately. 

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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #690 on: May 29, 2018, 08:24:41 AM »
Quote
I know that some of you will be facepalming me now, and with good reason because I've decided to drop Eurorack... the reasons are those that I feared when I ventured into it... I have a VERY hard time not having any serious polyphony... the second reason is those darn presets.

To go entirely modular, you have to be ready to radically change just about everything. I certainly wouldn't do any facepalming, because you gave it a shot and learned a lot by doing it.

I jelled with it only because I adopted a totally different compositional vision, of the kind that modular is in the best position to facilitate. If I hadn't wanted to do that, I'm sure I would have been frustrated. The right tool for the job.

I don't consider time to be that much of an issue. I can wire up a voice to play in just a few seconds. After that, you really have to enjoy the process. If you don't, it's not worth the huge expense involved.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 08:30:13 AM by chysn »
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #691 on: May 29, 2018, 08:46:48 AM »
Quote
I know that some of you will be facepalming me now, and with good reason because I've decided to drop Eurorack... the reasons are those that I feared when I ventured into it... I have a VERY hard time not having any serious polyphony... the second reason is those darn presets.

To go entirely modular, you have to be ready to radically change just about everything. I certainly wouldn't do any facepalming, because you gave it a shot and learned a lot by doing it.

I jelled with it only because I adopted a totally different compositional vision, of the kind that modular is in the best position to facilitate. If I hadn't wanted to do that, I'm sure I would have been frustrated. The right tool for the job.

I don't consider time to be that much of an issue. I can wire up a voice to play in just a few seconds. After that, you really have to enjoy the process. If you don't, it's not worth the huge expense involved.

Sure... I just think that my workflow requires the "normal" synthesizer... when I look at many videos of modular systems it seems like people have larger systems than I'm interested in, and they sort of like make the system play everything... in other words, it's doing a lot of voices and FX and other weird stuff, so that you can literally move away from it when you're done, and then it plays by itself, probably even doing generative stuff...

This is not how I work... i record one track at a time via HDD... thus for me, only the first track with a modular is an experiment and fun journey... as soon as I get to the second track, it's like the system does not give me what I need in terms of quick satisfaction... i think I actually see the first track as "sound design", which I actually love, but as soon as I get to the next tracks, i "flip" into composition mode, where I just want to experiment musically and performance wise with a sound already designed... that's where the movie stops for me...

So in general you could say that I COULD use a modular system, but only for the first track where it's fun setting up a sequence or bassline etc... then I'd have to have other "normal" synths to take over in the following... does that make sense?

It does to me... so I could in reality have a small desktop case with modules, just for that initial track, but when i think of it, it's most likely overkill, mainly because the "normal" synths would do the job just as well... when i think of it, this is also how it's been with any other thing I've done... it starts with me going into sound design mode, creating a patch that I like... then I start sequencing something with it, and then comes the lust for putting in more tracks, but these has allways been found browsing thru allready made presets, NOT by sound designing them...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 08:48:51 AM by Razmo »
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #692 on: May 29, 2018, 01:27:00 PM »
How about keeping a minimal eurorack setup for the type of sounds you cannot make with a normal synth? LPG's comes to mind. There are plenty of fun stuff out there and you could keep that setup evolving over time for GAS Management (TM) reasons.
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #693 on: May 29, 2018, 10:26:32 PM »
How about keeping a minimal eurorack setup for the type of sounds you cannot make with a normal synth? LPG's comes to mind. There are plenty of fun stuff out there and you could keep that setup evolving over time for GAS Management (TM) reasons.

I do not have any LPG, in fact I do not have that many modules, and not any that does something I could not do with either REV2, P12 or PX, so it would not be keeping a setup, but rather building one.

Such a setup would require a new case by the time I get a PX, as that would make my KB37 redundant... Unless DSI makes a PX module which I do not know yet.

But honestly, I do not think such a small setup will be necessary... Except for one use: A modular FX analog system to run stuff thru... But again... Not essential.

But I think that I'll know along the way, if I'll find a use for a small system.
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #694 on: May 29, 2018, 10:38:57 PM »
How about keeping a minimal eurorack setup for the type of sounds you cannot make with a normal synth? LPG's comes to mind. There are plenty of fun stuff out there and you could keep that setup evolving over time for GAS Management (TM) reasons.

Also, most modules are mono... You do not get many with stereo in, stereo out which limits the use as an FX box unless you get two modules of everything.

There are a few modules I could have a use for that would also allow for some realtime FX tweaking of the DSI synths... Two that comes to mind are TipTop Audio - Z-DSP and MakeNoise - Phonogene... Both are stereo, and offer some unique ways to enhance the signal that would be interesting for Ambient music... Though both are digital, and could as well have been done using a plugin in my DAW... There are also plenty of plugins with the abillity to mangle incomming signals, so again it's a question if maintaining a modular system is practical... It take up space which is actually quite limited in my little studio corner :)

Time will tell..
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #695 on: May 30, 2018, 04:39:56 AM »
Morphagene is the stereo one, while Phonogene was mono.

People do have eurorack effect racks, but these are usually people with eurorack systems in general. A Morphagene by itself could be fun, but it cries for modulation. So you're back on the hamster wheel; there's growth pressure again, just from a different direction.

If I ever give up eurorack, I'd probably get a Pro2 and keep Phonogene and Maths in my little 40HP control case, because those are modules that I think would work particularly well with a Pro2.

But if you don't have a system with much CV, plug-ins would probably be better.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 04:41:59 AM by chysn »
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #696 on: May 30, 2018, 08:54:08 AM »
I do not have any LPG

Chysn have previously recommended this LPG module:
https://youtu.be/oka4ujvCo70
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #697 on: May 30, 2018, 12:09:07 PM »
Morphagene is the stereo one, while Phonogene was mono.

People do have eurorack effect racks, but these are usually people with eurorack systems in general. A Morphagene by itself could be fun, but it cries for modulation. So you're back on the hamster wheel; there's growth pressure again, just from a different direction.

If I ever give up eurorack, I'd probably get a Pro2 and keep Phonogene and Maths in my little 40HP control case, because those are modules that I think would work particularly well with a Pro2.

But if you don't have a system with much CV, plug-ins would probably be better.

Yes... i did mean Morphagene :D thanks for the correction hehe...

And yes... excactly... I'd need modulation for such a module, but as you say; there are plenty of options with plugins, and they also have one really neat advantage: They can be applied to my DAW tracks, and edited and changed whenever i need to... if I record a modular FX system, I'd have to keep making retakes if I later find out I need to change an FX or two... with plugins I can switch them on when I want to, edit them when I want to, and when I'm satisfied, I can simply freeze the track and release all DAW CPU processing power for new tracks... same goes for EQ... this is really important to me... and also, recording huge reverbs into a track means a lot of waiting until the tails have ended, and it just makes things too static.... I like the idear of using the REV2 FX as a sound design tool, but without using delays or reverbs... more or less I want to use the FX section in REV2 as a "modulation FX" section... and have delays and reverbs (ambience FX) as plugins... it gives me the best trade off in both worlds.

So I'll skip modular... I'm 99,9% certain to be honest... I'm listening to some of my few REV2 demos I made when I had the REV2 last time, and I can hear clearly, that this is what I'm after... a REV2 put thru a Valhalla Shimmer Reverb is simply bliss! :)
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #698 on: May 30, 2018, 12:12:16 PM »
I do not have any LPG

Chysn have previously recommended this LPG module:
https://youtu.be/oka4ujvCo70

Sounds wonderful... but I think I'll pass.... besides I've never really understood the mojo around LPGs... I find they're more or less like a mixed VCA and VCF controlled from the same envelope... I know it's not that, and I know they're normally made with a vactrol, but I guess I'd have to try one out to feel the mojo because demoes does make it hard for me to hear what sets them apart...
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Re: Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...
« Reply #699 on: May 30, 2018, 07:42:13 PM »
I find they're more or less like a mixed VCA and VCF controlled from the same envelope... I know it's not that

Oh, yeah, it is that. You've pretty much got it.
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