Just received the P5 rev 4: Initial questionable/concerned comments.

[engineerjoel]

Okay, just got received the P5, today.… two initial questionable/concerned comments.

#1. Stepping the through all the presets, many many of the presets are distorted.  We have never experienced this type of distorted-phenomenon out of a synth.  The input gain into the SSL console is set to about -12:  plenty of headroom so it’s not a signal-flow gain structure issue.   For the majority of all the presets, the P5’s master volume sits comfortably at “5”.  But, to eliminate the distorted presets, I have to turn the master volume down to about “2”.   As I recall, my rev 3.3 was very punchy and ‘hot’, but it never experienced any type of output distortion (or preset distortion):  no matter how cranked the oscillator’s mixer settings were set.   So, I’m concerned about this.

#2.  Turning on the UNISON doesn’t seem to stack all the 5 voices to create that ‘thick’ phat sound.  Even though the patch becomes mono, it sounds like only 1 of the 5 voices are sounding.  Actually, there is really no difference in tone or thickness when switching the UNISION button On/OFF. (Maybe the Rev 4 now allows the number of voices to be programmable per patch—and I am not aware of this?)  One of the patches I came across actually dropped a fraction in volume when switching to Unison.  Again, my rev 3.3 would always jump in volume a few dB’s and the sound would become thick-and-punchy when put into Unison.   So, I’m concerned about this. 

I did update the firmware to 2.0, but this didn’t resolve any issues.

On happy note     I LOVE the feel of the keybed!!! Love the spring-loaded pitchbend! 
Huge improvement over the rev 3.3.

[HockeBocke]

Yes, the output volume is "hot" ... I keep mine around "nine o´clock".
Some sounds is hotter than other, so go to "mixer section" to adjust and store the new settings.
( Try to match to the weakest sound )

Unison is set per sound. Press and hold Unison button, number in display shows how many voices is active,
press Group select -  or Bank select +  to detract or add more voices.
Press Program select 1 - 8 for detuning amount.

There´s more features with te Unison button  .....   Read the Manual and the addendum for OS 2.0.0

Cheers !

[engineerjoel]

Okay, Excellent!  Thank you for the reply and the tips!!

[Analog Prophet]

I had my P5 rev 4 connected to my SSL desk until last summer (nowadays straight to a sound card) and can’t recall I experienced any distortion. Don’t remember the input gain of the console, just matched with other channels and normally had some outboards inserted at the input stage.

[Denis Goekdag]

I have the distortion issue, too, and it isn’t the synth being „hot“ - the distortion comes and goes between sessions. What I think is the case is that if the synth boots with master volume set to max, the calibration can „get it wrong“, causing distortion. If the synth boots with volume at a lower value like 50%, everything is fine. YMMV.

[g3o2]

I have the distortion issue, too, and it isn’t the synth being „hot“ - the distortion comes and goes between sessions. What I think is the case is that if the synth boots with master volume set to max, the calibration can „get it wrong“, causing distortion. If the synth boots with volume at a lower value like 50%, everything is fine. YMMV.

Interesting find, have you been able to reproduce it? If yes, it could be a firmware bug and would be well worth reporting to support.

[___theinfluence]

I have the distortion issue, too, and it isn’t the synth being „hot“ - the distortion comes and goes between sessions. What I think is the case is that if the synth boots with master volume set to max, the calibration can „get it wrong“, causing distortion. If the synth boots with volume at a lower value like 50%, everything is fine. YMMV.

I have independently discovered the exact same behavior regarding the master volume knob on my Desktop Prophet 5 unit on firmware version Main OS 2.0.4 and Panel OS 1.1.3 and it is reproducible. I am currently working with Sequential support on troubleshooting the issue.

I originally suspected this was a firmware issue, but support wanted to look into my unit from a hardware perspective, so I sent my boards in for an out of warranty repair.

I'll forward this thread on to support so they're aware that this behavior has been confirmed on more than just my unit.

[g3o2]

Thanks for addressing this with support. Please keep us updated on how this story continues.

[___theinfluence]

Thanks for addressing this with support. Please keep us updated on how this story continues.

Will do.

Would anyone else with a P5/P10 Rev 4 be able to confirm/rule out similar behavior using the following test scenario? It should only take a couple minutes max

Turn volume knob to max 100% and boot up the unit

    - Gain staging/noise floor observed to be much hotter at all volume knob levels and distortion present when playing   
      notes, or by turning on the built-in A440 reference tone. Issues impact both the line and headphone outputs.

Turn volume knob down to below 50% (I generally set it at ~3-4 for my experiments to be sure) and power cycle the unit off and on again

     - Gain staging returns to normal at all volume knob levels, noise floor is reduced, and distortion is not present in either
       output when playing any notes or the A440 reference tone.

While still booted in a non-distorted state, turn the volume knob to max and hit the TUNE button

     - Once the tuning process is complete, the noise floor will jump and the gain staging and distortion issues resurface.


If you happen to perform this test, could you please list whether you have a P5/P10, keyboard or module, and what firmware (both Main OS and Panel OS) you're currently running? I think this information may be quite valuable for bug and/or hardware issue hunting.

Thanks!!

[Satch]

Thanks for addressing this with support. Please keep us updated on how this story continues.

Will do.

Would anyone else with a P5/P10 Rev 4 be able to confirm/rule out similar behavior using the following test scenario? It should only take a couple minutes max

Turn volume knob to max 100% and boot up the unit

    - Gain staging/noise floor observed to be much hotter at all volume knob levels and distortion present when playing   
      notes, or by turning on the built-in A440 reference tone. Issues impact both the line and headphone outputs.

Turn volume knob down to below 50% (I generally set it at ~3-4 for my experiments to be sure) and power cycle the unit off and on again

     - Gain staging returns to normal at all volume knob levels, noise floor is reduced, and distortion is not present in either
       output when playing any notes or the A440 reference tone.

While still booted in a non-distorted state, turn the volume knob to max and hit the TUNE button

     - Once the tuning process is complete, the noise floor will jump and the gain staging and distortion issues resurface.


If you happen to perform this test, could you please list whether you have a P5/P10, keyboard or module, and what firmware (both Main OS and Panel OS) you're currently running? I think this information may be quite valuable for bug and/or hardware issue hunting.

Thanks!!

Hi,

I performed this test on my P10 keyboard (2.0.1 & 1.1.1) and got the same results as you.

[___theinfluence]

Hi,

I performed this test on my P10 keyboard (2.0.1 & 1.1.1) and got the same results as you.

Thanks for taking the time to perform this test!

I think this is very useful information. Your data point suggests the newest firmware at least has not introduced this behavior, as you confirmed that it was present on an older firmware version too.

This data point also suggests this behavior isn't tied to keyboard vs. module or even P5 vs. P10 (i.e. it affects all Rev 4 units) as my original discovery was made on a P5 module.

[Satch]

Hi,

I performed this test on my P10 keyboard (2.0.1 & 1.1.1) and got the same results as you.

Thanks for taking the time to perform this test!

I think this is very useful information. Your data point suggests the newest firmware at least has not introduced this behavior, as you confirmed that it was present on an older firmware version too.

This data point also suggests this behavior isn't tied to keyboard vs. module or even P5 vs. P10 (i.e. it affects all Rev 4 units) as my original discovery was made on a P5 module.

I’ve actually had this issue for a year now. I sent my P10 for warranty service last year and they found nothing wrong with the synth. At that time after the service I thought it had something to do with my interface or ground issues etc. Hopefully this will be resolved soon, but at least I can now record with it, if I just tune it with the volume turned down.

[g3o2]

I can confirm this behavior on my P10 desktop with 2.0.4 and 1.1.3 (latest unofficial OS). Thank you pointing out the clear instructions.

[___theinfluence]

I can confirm this behavior on my P10 desktop with 2.0.4 and 1.1.3 (latest unofficial OS). Thank you pointing out the clear instructions.

Thank you for taking the time to perform the test!

I’ll follow up on this thread once I get some updates.

[___theinfluence]

Providing an update as previously mentioned - this is now considered a confirmed bug and has been added to Sequential's list for fixes. The timeline for another firmware update is not known at this time.

Thanks again to those that took the time to run my little test scenario on their respective units!

[g3o2]

Thank you for having taken this to support and for having found a reliable workaround to the problem.

[Satch]

Hi,

Did the new firmware fix the problem for you? For me it’s still the same unfortunately.

[558]

Thanks for addressing this with support. Please keep us updated on how this story continues.

Will do.

Would anyone else with a P5/P10 Rev 4 be able to confirm/rule out similar behavior using the following test scenario? It should only take a couple minutes max

Turn volume knob to max 100% and boot up the unit

    - Gain staging/noise floor observed to be much hotter at all volume knob levels and distortion present when playing   
      notes, or by turning on the built-in A440 reference tone. Issues impact both the line and headphone outputs.

Turn volume knob down to below 50% (I generally set it at ~3-4 for my experiments to be sure) and power cycle the unit off and on again

     - Gain staging returns to normal at all volume knob levels, noise floor is reduced, and distortion is not present in either
       output when playing any notes or the A440 reference tone.

While still booted in a non-distorted state, turn the volume knob to max and hit the TUNE button

     - Once the tuning process is complete, the noise floor will jump and the gain staging and distortion issues resurface.


If you happen to perform this test, could you please list whether you have a P5/P10, keyboard or module, and what firmware (both Main OS and Panel OS) you're currently running? I think this information may be quite valuable for bug and/or hardware issue hunting.

Thanks!!

I found that my Prophet 10 running the 2.0.0 firmware did seem a little louder all the way across the volume range after tuning it at high volume.  I was listening to it thru a 120W Guitar amp from the headphones output.  I never noticed this before.  It did go back to regular volume after tuning it at a lower volume though it was hardly discernable difference at my low volume on the Amp.

I didn't notice any distortion after tuning at high volume.  It was just sort of loud there at the high volume after, sort of like before.  Maybe a smidge more volume?  Just maybe a volume increase more noticable after turning the volume down around 4/10, that volume was noticably lower sounding to my ears across the amp prior to the tune operation.   

[558]

Thanks for addressing this with support. Please keep us updated on how this story continues.

Will do.

Would anyone else with a P5/P10 Rev 4 be able to confirm/rule out similar behavior using the following test scenario? It should only take a couple minutes max

Turn volume knob to max 100% and boot up the unit

    - Gain staging/noise floor observed to be much hotter at all volume knob levels and distortion present when playing   
      notes, or by turning on the built-in A440 reference tone. Issues impact both the line and headphone outputs.

Turn volume knob down to below 50% (I generally set it at ~3-4 for my experiments to be sure) and power cycle the unit off and on again

     - Gain staging returns to normal at all volume knob levels, noise floor is reduced, and distortion is not present in either
       output when playing any notes or the A440 reference tone.

While still booted in a non-distorted state, turn the volume knob to max and hit the TUNE button

     - Once the tuning process is complete, the noise floor will jump and the gain staging and distortion issues resurface.


If you happen to perform this test, could you please list whether you have a P5/P10, keyboard or module, and what firmware (both Main OS and Panel OS) you're currently running? I think this information may be quite valuable for bug and/or hardware issue hunting.

Thanks!!

I wouldn't recommend telling anyone to do this sht man.  I literally started hearing the distortion sound you mentioned after I did it.  Now I have these fried circuits because I did this.  DO NOT TUNE WITH VOLUME JACKED UP.  I better be able to fix this.  Probably find a way.  Right now I am tuning with volume all the way down.  If this Fs up my synth I think that should be a lesson to me to not follow random crazy ideas.  Not a good idea.


edit: 
nah.. just a messed up sounding preset.  99% of all the issues prophet owners think they have are due to distortions and weirdnesses caused by all those analog dials.  In my case you can test and see, it has 2 square waves, some noise off the LFO noise setting, and probably some noise off the noise setting as well.  It is a jacked up vol to begin with.  I did hear sone weird popping for a minute, but these is all in that program you can try it yourself and see if you get that distortion.  It is a really sharp sound.  Taking out the square waves, decreasing the noise knobs to 0, maybe turn off the filter in the Poly mod, you will turn off your distortions during the long release of the note.  I just happen to be uploading this program for the adjacent post about stepping in Alternative tunings.  I had a difficult time hearing the distortion because I went from a subdued program or 3 to this one which is quite loud to begin with and has a lot of noise built into it.  Of course I am still just listening to it across that 120W amp.

For sure though, you don't wanna run your stuff too hot It's simply gain staging.  Just keep things on your preamps low enough not to get all that distortion.  I turn up the synth to all volumes no problem I even have 2 preamps before it gets to the computer.  I never have any distortion.  However that doesn't mean I couldn't get it with the right program and the wrong volume.  Like I said 99 percent of the times I got annoying popping it was from square waves and the sync button or the LFO noise or the LFO and a dropping wave form like the saw or the square.

[___theinfluence]

I wouldn't recommend telling anyone to do this sht man.  I literally started hearing the distortion sound you mentioned after I did it.  Now I have these fried circuits because I did this.  DO NOT TUNE WITH VOLUME JACKED UP.  I better be able to fix this.  Probably find a way.  Right now I am tuning with volume all the way down.  If this Fs up my synth I think that should be a lesson to me to not follow random crazy ideas.  Not a good idea.

This test method is completely safe and doesn't irrevocably damage anything on your synth. It is consistently reproducible and its solution is also consistently reproducible.

Everything I originally stated in full (and its workaround) has been confirmed as a bug by Sequential support and has nothing to do with how you design a patch, or the gain staging of the unit to your devices downstream.

The issue has been documented comprehensively and has been officially acknowledged already. Please do not complicate matters further by spreading misinformation. If you follow the test method line by line and don't have the issue, it would be useful to post your Main and Panel OS firmware versions, desktop or keyboard version, P5 or P10 etc.

@Satch - I haven't updated to the newest FW version as it is easy to avoid this issue now that I know its trigger and the unit has been stable for me with this workaround. I hesitate to update as I haven't needed the new features in Main 2.0.6. It's possible they haven't gotten around to fixing this bug yet.

I may update and run the test again "for science". Worst case scenario I can go back to 2.0.4. Thanks for providing the additional information on your end! I'll update the forum if/when I get a chance to test.