Wobbly Pot/Knobs

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2021, 09:18:37 AM »
Thread seems to be getting derailed here but let's be honest, the Behringer clones sound bang on in nearly all cases. Anyone saying they don't is talking rubbish. Same goes for the newest generation of plugins, no way you can hear the difference. This makes how a synth feels in hand even more important imo, which is what this thread is about.

Whilst we're Behringer bashing, I can tell you for a fact the pots on my ms101 are far sturdier then the majority on my ob6. Only time will tell how well these synths hold up but let's not make assumptions. Do I think Behringer are a nice company? No! But I'm typing this on my Apple laptop, so go figure! 

Would be good to keep this thread focused on the issue here, which is crappy knobs on a £2,500 synth.



Besides the disappointment you feel every time you use it...

Except for the lack of voices and inability to control modulation amounts separately sometimes (it should definitely have been an 8 voice), I've never felt a disappointment every time I use my OB6.

That being said, I will admit that when the Behringer UB-Xa will finally be available, and IF it sounds exactly like an OB-Xa, there a good chance that I'll probably get rid of my OB6. AND I'll still have money left over to get more gear as a bonus!

A proper reissue of the Prophet 5, using the same parts came and created by the same original designer was released, and you said it doesn't sound authentic (contrary to the opinions of those that actually own both). 

Given that discount Behringer synths mass produced on assembly lines in China have a reputation for sound quality that lies somewhere in between a VST virtual knock off and the actual synth they are trying to imitate in terms of raw tone (not counting the FX from TC electronics which Behringer purchased and I'm told are decent sounding), what do you think the chances are that the UBXa will both be considered equal to a vintage Oberheim, and also last more than 15 years?  Meanwhile the OB-6 you will have sold for less than you paid will likely be worth $12k or more 20 years from now.

Do you think that perhaps the allure of a low purchase price could be introducing personal bias into your evaluation of what sounds good?   Not saying this is a bad thing, there has always been a market for discount music, because those phone menu systems that put you on hold tend to resist high royalty costs, and someone waiting to complain about their cable or internet bill is typically not expecting to listen to good music while on hold anyway.

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2021, 04:05:48 PM »
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

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Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2021, 04:26:19 PM »
Even the inventor of the Roland VP330, Noriyasu San, endorses the Behringer VC340. Enough said.

https://ask.audio/articles/inventor-of-roland-vp330-plays-endorses-behringer-clone-vc340-vocoder?fbclid=IwAR3Sv9iALcICSNrL_l7WHpmk-bAtEk6b9qYFpsJ7eX8uMA0F2M0Bfy4yvJA

The article said he was pleased.  If I were 90 years old, and saw others imitating machines I created decade prior, I would be pleased too, because imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.  It doesn't mean that Behringer clones sound as good as the originals.

I'm not saying no Behringer synths ever sound good..  I've heard videos of the Pro-1 that were quite good (but it comes at the expense of tiny knobs so for my needs AS-1 is a better module).  Many of their products are probably worth what they are asking.  Its just that so many videos I've heard of their synths, there is this raw tonal quality to the oscillators that I hear in almost all of them that is just irritating.  I know it can be buried in FX, the harshness EQ'd away and all that... but it seems like everytime they release a product I hear that horrible tone again.  Its like its the same synth every time in a different case.  I don't like them as a company... if they came out with a synth that really offered something I wanted and couldn't get elsewhere, I might put politics aside for the sake of music creation, but so far it hasn't happened.

I honestly don't think Behringer is interested in making top notch instruments.  I think they have realized that some folks prefer G.A.S. churn... they need to be always buying new toys in order to stay motivated to create.  By offering lots of new models constantly at low price points (at the expense of refinement of each instrument and making it the best it can be), Uli is feeding that addiction.  It's actually smart from a business strategy perspective, it's just not the way to go down in history as a maker of great instruments.



Prophet 10, Prophet 6, OB-6, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2021, 10:38:24 PM »
Didn't I end my last post with: Enough said?  ;)

This is a Sequential forum. Despite having bought a few Behringer products myself, I still love the sound of my OB6 Desktop unit, which is far better than my Prophet REV2 soundwise (to my taste anyway), and on which there are no wobbly pots after a few years of use in my personal studio.

But then again, I take care of my beloved, and expensive instruments. Only once, in all of this time, did I get a nonresponsive Tens/Select button, which was rapidly fixed by repeatedly and vigorously press it several times (as was recommended by DSI support team at the time) to clear out some slight oxidation/dirt on the contacts of the TACT switch.

Maybe the upcoming UB-Xa will match, or even perhaps surpass my OB6 when it finally becomes available? Who knows? But for now, alongside my vintage Minimoog D, the OB6 is my polyphonic centerpiece in my set-up.
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2021, 02:18:35 PM »
From Sequential tech support in response to me when they replaced some very wobbly pots on both my Rev2 and OB6 under warranty “In the case of the Rev2, the pots are not secure to the front panel metal work with nuts -- they are soldered directly to the panel circuit boards. Some amount of wobble is to be expected” and “The Prophet-5 and Prophet-10 pots are secured to the top metalwork with nuts/washers, unlike the P6/OB-6 [and Rev2].

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2021, 01:19:17 PM »
I recently acquired a Deepmind 12 desktop (Nearly 2 months ago now). I know, years late to the party but I have to say that it is a quality unit through and through. The build quality is top notch. Everything (sliders, knobs & buttons) just feels smooth and satisfying. None of the wobble I've seen and heard about with some unfortunate Sequential owners. The sound quality is also up there with the Rev 2. The workflow and design choices were thoroughly thought out and make a ton of sense when using it for extended periods of time. You also get a free editor/librarian to top it off. That being said, the 2 Sequential synths that I own (Rev2 & OB-6 desktop) are perfect specimens. No wobbles and no issues whatsoever. I don't know about the cheaper Behringer stuff but the DM12 would/could have cost nearly double if it was produced by some other companies.


The article said he was pleased.  If I were 90 years old, and saw others imitating machines I created decade prior, I would be pleased too, because imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. It doesn't mean that Behringer clones sound as good as the originals.

I'm not saying no Behringer synths ever sound good..  I've heard videos of the Pro-1 that were quite good (but it comes at the expense of tiny knobs so for my needs AS-1 is a better module).  Many of their products are probably worth what they are asking.  Its just that so many videos I've heard of their synths, there is this raw tonal quality to the oscillators that I hear in almost all of them that is just irritating.  I know it can be buried in FX, the harshness EQ'd away and all that... but it seems like everytime they release a product I hear that horrible tone again.  Its like its the same synth every time in a different case.  I don't like them as a company... if they came out with a synth that really offered something I wanted and couldn't get elsewhere, I might put politics aside for the sake of music creation, but so far it hasn't happened.

I honestly don't think Behringer is interested in making top notch instruments.  I think they have realized that some folks prefer G.A.S. churn... they need to be always buying new toys in order to stay motivated to create.  By offering lots of new models constantly at low price points (at the expense of refinement of each instrument and making it the best it can be), Uli is feeding that addiction.  It's actually smart from a business strategy perspective, it's just not the way to go down in history as a maker of great instruments.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 01:20:59 PM by RobustAmerican »

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2022, 07:33:37 AM »
First of all. Love this synth.
Second. Just wondering if the pots are supposed to be wobbly?
Anyways. Hope someone can help me out. Thanks.

Many OB~6 and Prophet~6, keys and modules, have wobbly knobs.
I got the same "cop it sweet mate, they're just like that" reply from DSI.
Well no, that's bullshit. So I just kept returning Prophet~6's until I finally got one with solid knobs. On the module the filter knob was so loose that the shop owner exclaimed that it was like a fcuking joystick!

This is why DSI got bought out.
Bad. Customer. Experience.
Bad. Customer. Service.
Shoddy excuses like this miff paying customers big time.
Especially those who depend on their synths for a living.
You pay premium prices for quality, well engineered components that give you the confidence they are going to last for a long time.
The OB6 is lacking badly in this department when the pots, the main user interface, are under consideration.

I have a list of synths that are one TENTH the cost of an OB6. None of them have wobbly, el cheapo, lack of quality control pots problems. It is utter BS. Let's see what has solid pots:

Novation Bass Station II
Micro Monsta
Roland SH101 boutique
Roland Gaia
M Audio Venom
Korg M1
Novation Peak

In total, all of these synths cost me less used than a new OB6.
NONE have pot wobble issues, despite being well used and well worn in before I bought them.
Hell, even the M1, the only one without knobs, had been on the road with a pro musician every night for a world tour of a well known band, used nightly by a touring session keyboard player in the 1990s.
It's 30+ years old and has had a hard life, but guess what?

ZERO problems with any of the switches, joystick or even the display.

Keep calling out this BS for what it is.
We are being fobbed off.
In the meantime I'm going to investigate how to fix the problem on my OB6 and will feed the fix back into the community when I do.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 07:54:08 AM by jonr »

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2022, 10:05:42 AM »
The Korg M1? Really?  ::)
It doesn't even have pots. Only two cheap sliders.

I call BS on you. My OB6 Module has no issue with pots, no issue with the user interface (WYSIWYG).

Moreover, back when this company was called DSI, I got excellent aftersale service from them (for a problem with my Prophet REV2), quick replies, and felt confident that they would solve my problem, which they did.

That was before that COVID mess came on.

That being said, the days of Moog Music of the late sixties and early seventies are gone. Gone are the industrial-grade, and army-rated electronic components used to build their modular systems, and Minimoogs. Otherwise, if Sequential would have selected those components, the cost of your OB6 would have been more like $30K instead of $3K.
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2022, 07:52:48 PM »
I honestly cant stand behringer 90% of the time. So boring... Lets make a synth like an old synth then release it in 5 different primary colours that looks like dogshit. Also lets make it out of cheap crap. Honestly bought 2 behringers at one point, both garbage. One came with a piece inside floating around. Terrible products.

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2022, 02:27:48 PM »
It's unjust to castigate Sequential across the board.  I don't claim that anybody who has had QC problems with their products is lying.  If he or she says it was the case, I'll give that person the benefit of the doubt.  But to claim that Sequential is a terrible company with terrible service is just absurd.  And it's contrary to the experiences of many musicians who keep coming back to Sequential because of their excellent instruments and personnel. 

My instruments go back to the DSI days.  I've used them for about ten years now.  During that time, I've had minimal troubles, and whenever I've needed advice on fixing a dead note, for example, the company's response has been quick, friendly, and effective. 

I recently discovered a problem with my ancient Poly Evolver Keyboard and contacted the company.  They responded by email the same day.  The solution was either to fix it myself with their guidance or send in the board to have the guys fix it at the shop.  Simple as that.  From my experiences with this company over the past fourteen years, it's always been the same - quick, friendly, and effective service.  Otherwise, I wouldn't be on this forum, nor would I be saving up money for my next Sequential instrument.  In my opinion, they're the best, and I would rather entrust my hard-gotten cash to their product's than to those of any other company.

Again, I'm not denying someone else's experiences of another sort, and I would encourage them to persevere until their instrument is satisfactory.  But to denounce the company altogether is unbalanced and melodramatic.  If Sequential folded tomorrow, it would be a major tragedy in the synthesizer world.   
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 03:15:18 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
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Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2022, 04:18:00 AM »
Hi! Did anyone consider re-soldering good pots?

I mean I do not know if any problems could come with just finding good quality pots and resoldering. 
What do you think?

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2022, 08:16:28 AM »
The Korg M1? Really?  ::)
It doesn't even have pots. Only two cheap sliders.

I call BS on you. My OB6 Module has no issue with pots, no issue with the user interface (WYSIWYG).

Don't you love it when someone doesn't even READ your post and just blasts off on their own crusade.
Then feels the need to be rude to you.

I specifically said "the only one without knobs" - you know, knobs. Those things that sit on top of POTS.
How much clearer could I have made it for you?

Please read what I wrote and absorb it, before attempting to insult me.
Oh, and last time I checked, a sample size of 1 does not mean that each and every other unit out there is built just like yours.
Kindly consider that for a moment before you doubt someone's sincerity and honesty.
You'd not do it to their face is my guess.
I'm not on here to waste my time or troll the forum, I actually own several of Dave's creations and like them, including the OB-6, bar this rather glaring mechanical design problem. Please see my detailed notes and disassembly instructions below, should you still need convincing.
Right, that's that dealt with, onward to more productive things...
:D



« Last Edit: March 12, 2022, 09:20:52 AM by jonr »

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2022, 08:27:53 AM »
Hi! Did anyone consider re-soldering good pots?

I mean I do not know if any problems could come with just finding good quality pots and resoldering. 
What do you think?

Hi pdro333,
Here's some observations from when I opened mine up last night, this is what I found, you might find it useful before opening up yours:

1) None of the pots on the OB-6 are secured to the fascia with a nut, which is the only way to truly hold them solidly in place.

2). There is sadly not enough space on the fascia to take a threaded pot', without reaming out EVERY single pot hole on the fascia. The hole for the pot is only marginally bigger then the pot' shaft's diameter.

3) The fascia PCB board is separate to the main motherboard holding the six sound cards, and connected to it by an IDE-type locking cable. Good engineering. Both motherboard and fascia PCB are quite beautifully etched, and the construction of the case is excellent. No criticism there. Exactly what I'd expect in terms of quality inside a Sequential synth.

4) The potentiometers are soldered onto the fascia PCB board with two metal lugs either side of the pot. Usual setup for board-secured pots on less expensive synths, in addition to the normal 3x electrical connections for the pot' itself.

5) As suspected, the pots are cheap and nasty, the plastic type with a short, stubby plastic shaft. This is true for all except a few on mine, with a handful of random ones which have a metal shaft, but even those are still cheap and nasty, and also wobble. Your mileage may vary.

So there you go folks.
My **opinion**, separate from the facts I've presented above, is that because, in contrast to the rest of the OB-6, all of the pot's are only secured to the PCB and are all cheap and nasty when you open it up, I strongly suspect all of the OB-6's pots will begin to wobble after some time. Even on units that currently do not suffer from the problem. They're not fixed to the fascia with a nut, hence they take all of the mechanical strain on the pot itself and will eventually begin wobbling with use. In addition, on mine there is a degree of wobble of the shaft within the pot itself, so I strongly suspect a better quality pot, although still PCB mounted, may be at least partially remedial, maybe fully.

It's a shame, and more than anything else, I feel disappointed, because I guess that everyone who's a member of this forum and is reading this is probably, like myself, a big fan of both Tom and Dave and of DSI/Sequential's synths.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why so much expense and good design was put into on the rest of the synth, which is, to its credit beautifully constructed, only for the cheapest, unsecured pot's to be chosen for the one place where end users notice it: The tactile user interface. It feels like someone had a bad afternoon when designing this part of the OB-6, and it totally lets the side down, which I feel slightly sad about given their historical reputations. I'm just amazed no-one caught it before it went into production.


Taking Apart the OB-6

pdro333, with regards to your post, yep, they could be removed and replaced. It's simple to take it apart.

Here's how to disassemble for the desktop module:

First: Make a note of the pots that wobble before disassembling, as the amount of wobble will not be as noticeable once the pots are removed - the pot' shafts are only 6-7 mm long.

Remove the 2 rows of four screws each on the back and underside of the module;
Remove 2x2 screws holding the wooden end cheeks ; under which there are another pair of hidden screws on either side holding the two halfs of the case together.
Once pulled apart, flip the IDE toggles either side of the cable that connects the fascia PCB to the motherboard holding the six voice cards.
Pull the cable from the IDE socket and put the lower half of the synth with the motherboard and voice cards to one side.
Either pull off the pot knobs (difficult), or use a plastic lever, or a flat screwdriver secured inside a thin plastic fold to remove the pot knobs, as (at least on mine) they are attached to an inhumanly tight degree and don't just pop off. Do not use a metal instrument without a cover, otherwise you'll scratch the fascia to shreds.
Remove 14x silver screws from the underside of the fascia motherboard. Each requires around 13-14 screwdriver turns (6-7 complete turns for reference when reassembling).
Finally, lift out the fascia PCB and do your thing with replacing the pots. I'll not quote markings or type here, as it's best to find out what was used on your own individual model version and order exact replacements, and note the values of the faulty pots if you're not replacing all of them, as I'm assuming they're not all the same resistance value (but haven't checked), as it's obvious some are OK and some not.

Nothing too complex and nothing that will catch you out.

Hopefully that's useful to anyone who's competent with a soldering iron and willing to take a crack at fixing the problem out of warranty.
It's not difficult to do, but I'd recommend against attempting it if you've not got the appropriate skills. Totally at your own risk.

Cost wise, it'll depend on your desire to change all of the pots, or just those that wobble. But even at an inflated $5 each, a full re-fit of all 43 pots at around $200 would give you an improved build.

Another option would be to consider something like an outboard MIDI controller such as the FaderFox PC12, which would give you more than enough knobs and is much better built, but you're looking at over twice the cost of replacing the pot's, albeit without any of the soldering hassle and risk.

Anyway, mystery solved.
:)

« Last Edit: March 12, 2022, 09:23:54 AM by jonr »

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Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2022, 05:56:00 PM »
Random thought… not advice.

I wonder if the existing pot shafts could be reinforced by gluing a washer to the fascia.

Certainly won’t be trying it on mine (P6)

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2022, 10:34:20 AM »
To be perfectly honest, on my OB6 Desktop, if I purposely and strongly try to move the knobs side-to-side there is some slight wobbling that occurs (tried only on one). But since I'm a light touch, none of them wobble when used normally.
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

pfrf

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2022, 09:23:07 AM »
Thank you, jonr, for bringing some facts to the thread.  Thank you for doing the investigative work.  My OB-6 pots do not wobble yet, I fear they will eventually, but I've seen enough videos of the problem and read enough posts online at various forums to know it's a real issue.  I am tired of apologists (in all areas of life, including at forums) who blame and shame people who experience problems, implying they are being melodramatic or have not taken care of their instruments.
My OB-6 pots don't wobble only because I haven't played it as much as my other instruments.  Because I haven't fallen in love with it, because my OB-6 buyer's experience was not exactly joyful due to poor QC at Sequential.  This synth costs $3500 today at Sweetwater.  That's outrageous.
Remember "knob-gate" surrounding the cheap knobs on the Prophet 6?  Sequential couldn't care less.  I like Sequential support, the employees seem like awesome people, and I admire both Dave Smith and Tom Oberheim.  But Sequential is miserly when it comes to the actual details of the user experience. 

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2022, 03:01:45 PM »
Just got a brand new OB 6 and noticed most of the knobs feel great with lots of resistance but a few feel noticeably looser and slightly wobbly. Not a huge deal for me but would be nice if they were all sturdy.

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2022, 11:52:48 PM »
Hi. I've just got my 2nd ob6 desktop module. The pots on the 1st one were  pretty wobbly. The 2nd one is much better although the sub oscillator moves a tiny bit. Do you know if it's just a problem on the desktop versions or are the keyboard ob6s affected too? Thanks

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2022, 05:36:33 AM »
Keyboard versions are also affected with wobbly pots. Mine has several.
Prophet 10 (Rev 4), Prophet 12,OB-6, Waldorf Quantum, MemoryMoog Plus, Novation SL MKIII, Elektron Digitakt, Elektron Digitone, OTO Bim, OTO Bam, OTO Boum, Strymon BigSky, Strymon Timeline.

Re: Wobbly Pot/Knobs
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2022, 02:38:51 AM »
Hi. I've just got my 2nd ob6 desktop module. The pots on the 1st one were  pretty wobbly. The 2nd one is much better although the sub oscillator moves a tiny bit. Do you know if it's just a problem on the desktop versions or are the keyboard ob6s affected too? Thanks

I'm on my second module too, sent first back due to excessive wobble on a single pot. Replacement is fine but these pots are handled with extreme care.