Are vintage units still fetching $8-9k+?

[LPF83]

I see some vintage units on Reverb, but not sure if they're really going for that with the Rev 4 out?

[Manbird]

I see some vintage units on Reverb, but not sure if they're really going for that with the Rev 4 out?

Looks like, on Reverb, that 5 out of maybe the last ten vintage P5s went for $5000-ish, one went for under $4000, one for $7500 and one for $9500. No idea if there's a story behind that last one, like maybe it belonged to Michael Jackson's horse and was used on his Trailer album or ting, but I'm willing to bet $4500 that most of the 5s we see listed will have flashy "20% price drop!" tags added soon enough...

[LPF83]

I see some vintage units on Reverb, but not sure if they're really going for that with the Rev 4 out?

Looks like, on Reverb, that 5 out of maybe the last ten vintage P5s went for $5000-ish, one went for under $4000, one for $7500 and one for $9500. No idea if there's a story behind that last one, like maybe it belonged to Michael Jackson's horse and was used on his Trailer album or ting, but I'm willing to bet $4500 that most of the 5s we see listed will have flashy "20% price drop!" tags added soon enough...

Around the time the Rev4 was announced, I saw Rick Wakeman's Prophet-5 on sale on Reverb... I don't recall the asking price at the moment.  Supposedly Rick worked with Dave on early design and prototypes (and came up with the name)... so whatever the sales price was, was probably an anomaly.

[Analog Prophet]

Why buy a vintage P5 at all when the rev 4 is out there? The rev 4 exceeds the vintage P5 in every way (except the plate at the rear). If I was offered to buy a vintage P5 I would not pay more than a new one as long they are manufactured.

[LPF83]

Why buy a vintage P5 at all when the rev 4 is out there? The rev 4 exceeds the vintage P5 in every way (except the plate at the rear). If I was offered to buy a vintage P5 I would not pay more than a new one as long they are manufactured.

Plus the switchable filters and vintage knob.  This is why I wonder what vintage ones are going for in real sales.

[Manbird]

Why buy a vintage P5 at all when the rev 4 is out there? The rev 4 exceeds the vintage P5 in every way (except the plate at the rear). If I was offered to buy a vintage P5 I would not pay more than a new one as long they are manufactured.

Plus the switchable filters and vintage knob.  This is why I wonder what vintage ones are going for in real sales.

I'm living with two Prophet 5s now. Mine, which is a gorgeous rev 4, and my wife's rev 3. The latter has some history, coming directly from Terry Riley and having been used on his Songs Of the Ten Voices Of The Two Prophets album. That said, I've zero idea if that would mean someone would be willing to pay more to own this particular synth. (Not that it's for sale!!) But because it has such a specific history to it, on an album that's its own namesake, maybe a collector/fan/true geek would be into it. But yeah, it's curious to me what would inspire someone to spend such cash on a 40 year-old vintage 5 at this point... 

[HockeBocke]

Well, I guess there will be a drop for a few years (?) but as with old vintage
guitars, like Gibson -59´s and Fender -63´s, there will be some purists
who wants the "real" original stuff produced in small numbers and willing to pay for it .......
Even though there have been new "better" Gibsons and Fenders produced over the years.
Same with old vintage tube amps vs Kemper Profiler .....
Or old cars from 50´s - 60´s  vs Tesla   
Time will tell what happens

BTW, I got "the real deal" Prophet-5 Rev.2 and Prophet-10 Rev.4 and I´m not selling any of them   


Cheers !

[Analog Prophet]

As I don’t see that many vintage P5 today at stage by musicians depending on a reliable setup I guess it’s more (but not solely) a matter of nostalgia. A new P5/10 is reliable and therefore a better choice for someone who first is a musician and second a collectors great instruments.

Guitars are not ticking bombs in the same way as synths regarding old electronics that sooner or later will fail and/or behave strange. If I was a guitar player I’ll guess I would have some vintage guitars just because the love of great instruments with a warm personality, not that they necessary are superior to new guitars. With the P5/10 rev 4 I have both the mojo of a historic instrument and reliability. I couldn’t be more satisfied. The prices of a vintage P5 are therefore just ridicules to me.

That said, it’s a great time to sell your old P5 for a low price to me 😉.

[Infa Red]

I see some vintage units on Reverb, but not sure if they're really going for that with the Rev 4 out?

Why would you say that ?

I don't want to sound like a "hater" here haha cause I love every instrument by Dave and I own a lot of them by now. But I have to be honest. Just to be straightforward. I mos def hear a difference between my vintage P5 rev.2 and the new one I got. Its not even subtle. Its also something besides sound. Hard to explain.

I respect he put a lot into the vintage knob. But I am real surprised people think thats the only ingredient (unstableness and slight detune drifting) - its just one ingredient. I open up my old P5, and opened up my new P10, and that was the answer right there. The power supply and transformers are like 1/4 of the size. I am no tech.. but just logic points to something else is also a small ingredient to that old magical sound. Also I could be wrong but it looks like the Osc cans things are smaller too ? Or a different brand. The analog path looks much more petite is the bottom line. And this HAS to effect sound.

I'd sell my new ones before I'd sell my vintage ones. For sure. Not a doubt in my mind. But I honestly aint selling anything ! haha. Back to it though -  I don't know how to explain it, as words will just not explain or do it justice, but is like my vintage P5 sounds more "gooey", "drippy", "goopy". The filters kinda react with a different character more related to speed differences than sound. And this is matching verbatim what I can (rev.2 filter, vintage knob, 5 voice to 5 voice, etc.. totally apples to apples). IDK, Something is encasing the sound for a slightly different result and the new one is like free of the goo. haha I told you I didn't want to try to explain, but hopefully that makes some sense ?

I am happy and proud to own the new stuff and I am very glad to see and hear you all are too. But lets not bend facts and try to paint a picture that isn't there. If you just don't notice, then thats fine, good for you. But to me its pretty undeniable. And my personal feeling is it is more about electricity or something. Overbuilding the transformers and making power supplies that were not so efficient could be a cause for a different sound. ?? Leaded solder ? Not complying to California BS could maybe make a much better sound ? lol IDK - but believe me, the rev 4 came out and vintage P5's are on the rise baby !! And should be. They are that much more rare and truly still hold a unique sound.

[LPF83]

I see some vintage units on Reverb, but not sure if they're really going for that with the Rev 4 out?

Why would you say that ?

Because from what I've heard in YT comparisons (and in feedback from most folks that own both a Rev4 and vintage P5) they sound the same.

It's possible yours (or even many units) have some sort of anomaly that is varying the sound (in a good way)?   Analog gear is such that "defects", perhaps even from prolonged wear, can produce characteristics like soft clip distortion which actually sound quite good.  But it can also be an indicator it is soon to be in need of major repair.

[Infa Red]

Because from what I've heard in YT comparisons (and in feedback from most folks that own both a Rev4 and vintage P5) they sound the same.

It's possible yours (or even many units) have some sort of anomaly that is varying the sound (in a good way)?   Analog gear is such that "defects", perhaps even from prolonged wear, can produce characteristics like soft clip distortion which actually sound quite good.  But it can also be an indicator it is soon to be in need of major repair.

Its totally possible. But something is going on, that's for sure. Also there is the caveat of not everyone's "same" is the "same". lol I am pretty picky and observant. I've come across several colleagues in my years that claim to be the same observance as I, and they are never and always surprised at my attention to detail. So I think some people just don't really have equal tolerances for "same"

That said - If you open yours up and compare the guts against a vintage one, its pretty plain as day that they will not be able to sound the same. Thats just physics and logistics and the passage of time put together to equal the impossible. Like the emulation classic arcade games are NOT identical to a trained eye and purist. Sad to say its just impossible.

That said - I do want to thank and compliment Dave and Sequential for coming up with a darn good solid built new version that does sound ridiculously close. And I'd say as close as he could get when using new petite parts. I just wish people used more realistic speech and thought when claiming things.

If they built a dead on replica of a 1957 Chevy today, it would look and run identical to the vintage counterpart to a bystander and as you pass buy - but the organics in the steel alone are different and of less quality. The paint will NEVER be the same on a deep close look gazing into the texture, as paint sucks now a days. The engine could NOT run and breathe the same due to even if mimic'ed to a tee, new parts are not made the same as the ingredients to make the new parts are of less quality now. And the biggest issue causing differences is - making them be compliant to BS new age save the planet standards today. That is prob the biggest difference. Them standards ruin everything. (and on another note, fix nothing, lol California is the worse for that made up stuff just to over tax everyone and run companies out of town)

[Infa Red]

All debates and fun stuff aside though... You seen the prices of Jupiter 8's now a days?

https://reverb.com/item/40112188-roland-jupiter-8-kenton-midi-video

So yes sirrrr. Just to get back on topic - Vintage Units are and always will be on the rise. Period.

[Telstar]

I see some vintage units on Reverb, but not sure if they're really going for that with the Rev 4 out?

Why would you say that ?

I don't want to sound like a "hater" here haha cause I love every instrument by Dave and I own a lot of them by now. But I have to be honest. Just to be straightforward. I mos def hear a difference between my vintage P5 rev.2 and the new one I got. Its not even subtle. Its also something besides sound. Hard to explain.

I respect he put a lot into the vintage knob. But I am real surprised people think thats the only ingredient (unstableness and slight detune drifting) - its just one ingredient. I open up my old P5, and opened up my new P10, and that was the answer right there. The power supply and transformers are like 1/4 of the size. I am no tech.. but just logic points to something else is also a small ingredient to that old magical sound. Also I could be wrong but it looks like the Osc cans things are smaller too ? Or a different brand. The analog path looks much more petite is the bottom line. And this HAS to effect sound.

I'd sell my new ones before I'd sell my vintage ones. For sure. Not a doubt in my mind. But I honestly aint selling anything ! haha. Back to it though -  I don't know how to explain it, as words will just not explain or do it justice, but is like my vintage P5 sounds more "gooey", "drippy", "goopy". The filters kinda react with a different character more related to speed differences than sound. And this is matching verbatim what I can (rev.2 filter, vintage knob, 5 voice to 5 voice, etc.. totally apples to apples). IDK, Something is encasing the sound for a slightly different result and the new one is like free of the goo. haha I told you I didn't want to try to explain, but hopefully that makes some sense ?

I am happy and proud to own the new stuff and I am very glad to see and hear you all are too. But lets not bend facts and try to paint a picture that isn't there. If you just don't notice, then thats fine, good for you. But to me its pretty undeniable. And my personal feeling is it is more about electricity or something. Overbuilding the transformers and making power supplies that were not so efficient could be a cause for a different sound. ?? Leaded solder ? Not complying to California BS could maybe make a much better sound ? lol IDK - but believe me, the rev 4 came out and vintage P5's are on the rise baby !! And should be. They are that much more rare and truly still hold a unique sound.

Spot on. And I know the main reason the new reissues doesn't quite match the sound of the originals: engineers. Engineers are plagued with the urge to make stuff "better". They look at the oscilloscope all day, and tweak until there's a perfect line. But we don't need it perfect. We need it organic, loose, droopy. I think especially a guy lilke Dave Smith is a victim of this kind of thinking. The only reason the old P5's sound as organic as they do, is because the technology at the time couldn't provide results that were "better". Nowadays, he has to "improve" stuff. Don't get me wrong. I applaud he's hanging in there, and he makes great stuff. But, I just call it like I see it.

[LPF83]

Spot on. And I know the main reason the new reissues doesn't quite match the sound of the originals: engineers. Engineers are plagued with the urge to make stuff "better". They look at the oscilloscope all day, and tweak until there's a perfect line. But we don't need it perfect. We need it organic, loose, droopy. I think especially a guy lilke Dave Smith is a victim of this kind of thinking. The only reason the old P5's sound as organic as they do, is because the technology at the time couldn't provide results that were "better". Nowadays, he has to "improve" stuff. Don't get me wrong. I applaud he's hanging in there, and he makes great stuff. But, I just call it like I see it.

With vintage synths, manufacturing inconsistencies (of electronics components as well as the synths themselves) means that you cannot buy a vintage P5 and be certain that it too will have some special-something indescribable quality that you heard that sounds better on another synth, since no two ever sound alike.   With discrete electronics there is also no guarantee that special-something didn't come from a modification that occurred during servicing of the synth over its lifetime.   Manufacturing inconsistencies are lesser with modern components and software equivalents, meaning a buyer can be certain that their Rev4 will indistinguishably close to another Rev4 side by side.  There's pros and cons to that, some will say that individual instrument "character" created by anomaly is a good thing, and it certainly can be, but from a buyer's perspective I think that knowing the instrument you purchase will be as the designer intended it to sound is a bit more reassuring than random "character".

Just in terms of raw sound between the two, so far I have not seen a YT video that convinced me the vintage P5 sounded anything but indistinguishabler than a Rev 4...  In fact the Alex Ball comparison blind test video pretty much proved to me that over a reasonable statistical sample in a blind test, nobody would be able to tell the difference.

What I would like to see is a comparison of a vintage P5 versus a Rev 4 in poly unison mode  (something the vintage cannot do at all), and see which one wins in a sound contest.

[jdt9517]

IMO, aside from the variation unit to unit, comparing a 40+ year old piece of electronic gear to new is not really reasonable.  Was there a difference new to new, or is the difference a result of well-worn electronics?  To really do the comparison it would seem that one would have to find a vintage P5 that has not been used (new old stock).  Even then, the aging of electronics over 40 years could create differences in even an unused product. 

Going from memory, my new P5 has all the great sound as my old P5 Rev 3.0.

Unless I had a bottomless checkbook, I would not pay the premiums currently asked for a vintage P5 given the availability of the Rev 4.  Rev 4 goes away - different question.   Based upon Reverb.com prices seem to be falling. 

From Reverb.com 4/28/2022:
4/14/2022   Very Good   $5,546.75
3/29/2022   Very Good   $5,048.56
3/29/2022   Excellent   $7,799.99
3/13/2022   Mint   $4,216.38
3/13/2022   Mint   $4,216.38
3/13/2022   Mint   $4,216.38
11/27/2021   Very Good   $5,750
11/12/2021   Excellent   $8,000
10/19/2021   Excellent   $8,950
8/26/2021   Excellent   $7,400

[SynthHead]

I see some vintage units on Reverb, but not sure if they're really going for that with the Rev 4 out?

W I mos def hear a difference between my vintage P5 rev.2 and the new one I got. Its not even subtle. Its also something besides sound. Hard to explain.

I respect he put a lot into the vintage knob. But I am real surprised people think thats the only ingredient (unstableness and slight detune drifting) - it

And this is matching verbatim what I can (rev.2 filter, vintage knob, 5 voice to 5 voice, etc.. totally apples to apples). IDK, Something is encasing the sound for a slightly different result and the new one is like free of the goo. haha I told you I didn't want to try to explain, but hopefully that makes some sense ?

2 things:

Of course they sound different, and they should... they have different VCOS! You're comparing a fully SSM(SSI) Rev 2 to a CEM3340 VCO rev 4 with a remade SSI(SSM) 2040 filter. While the debate over the filter's accuracy to the old part will no doubt rage on forever, you're simply not comparing 'apples to apples', so the SSM rev 2 sounds a bit more gooey and poss organic? I'd buy that.. it's ancient SSM tech...

The Rev 4 is more like a Rev 3 with the OPTION to use a filter very much like (sometimes identical to) the SSM 2040 in the Rev 2. It was never claimed to be a full rev 2 clone... even in 'vintage knob at 2' mode.

VCOs will make a big difference, but this is no different to how people used to compare rev 2 to rev 3 and have their preference.

I personally prefer the SSM filter 9 times out of 10 in my rev 4, but the CEM filter has uses that allows it to make sounds more 'robustly' than the SSM filter.. and this is where rev 4's total brilliance steps in, it ALLOWS you to make a wider range of tones using the two filters (before we even get to velocity etc), each filter suiting a different type of sound.. for ex rezzy sweeps may sound sweeter with the SSM but bass can hit a bit harder with the curtis filter (and I'd suggest also with the curtis 3340 VCO chip that went on to be used in MANY classic analogs like OB-XA/8, Jupiter 6, SH-101, Memorymoog...)

The CEM 3340 VCO is, right away, going to give any synth a different tone to an old flaky SSM VCO that was soon abandoned (their filters are great but their VCOs don't seem to have got into many synths) or because they had tuning issues or w/e.

So you're really listening to a cross between a rev 3 and rev 2 when in 'rev 2' mode on a rev 4.. it'll never sound exactly the same, esp vs 40 years old electronics with poss worn caps and needs calibrating... sure that can sound good to the ear at times but the rev 4 is a different beast overall.. the P10 especially with the much more suitable polyphony for lighter sounds or stack/poly unison for things the old P5s couldn't do at all.

So it's not about chasing the last % of original sound (hence it's not a rev 2 reissue) but a rev 4 taking aspects of the past to be able to recreate most sounds 99% and do new things too... also in many cases the Rev 4 actually sounds BETTER doing a number of sounds than a Rev 3.. and poss rev 2... Alex Ball's video shows this. The Rev 4 sounds warmer and bit more low end (more powerful and commanding) while the rev 3 sounded thinner and a bit whispier... both sound great, both are great depending on your taste.

We all know a rev 2 is/was the holy grail for 'tone' but there comes a time when something like Rev4 comes more than close enough AND adds on so much good stuff without spoiling it when you say.. ok i'll take the $4k synth with a great keyboard and no issues + 5 more voices over the $10k collector's item with crappy keybed, constant service worries, voice stealing when you don't want it.. and never a chance to use the classic 3340 VCO or switchable filters.

IN context is really what all this is about... every synth can do something better than another synth, but on balance and at  a price? what is REALLY the 'better' instrument and wiser investment NOW?

Prophet 10 rev 4 is the ultimate prophet synthesizer.

Prophet 5 rev 2's are now expensive ticking time bombs with an occasionally more organic sound that doesn't count for much next to the sounds you can get out of a P10 rev 4 anyway!

[Infa Red]

2 things:

Of course they sound different, and they should... they have different VCOS! You're comparing a fully SSM(SSI) Rev 2 to a CEM3340 VCO rev 4 with a remade SSI(SSM) 2040 filter. While the debate over the filter's accuracy to the old part will no doubt rage on forever, you're simply not comparing 'apples to apples', so the SSM rev 2 sounds a bit more gooey and poss organic? I'd buy that.. it's ancient SSM tech...

The Rev 4 is more like a Rev 3 with the OPTION to use a filter very much like (sometimes identical to) the SSM 2040 in the Rev 2. It was never claimed to be a full rev 2 clone... even in 'vintage knob at 2' mode.

VCOs will make a big difference, but this is no different to how people used to compare rev 2 to rev 3 and have their preference.

I personally prefer the SSM filter 9 times out of 10 in my rev 4, but the CEM filter has uses that allows it to make sounds more 'robustly' than the SSM filter.. and this is where rev 4's total brilliance steps in, it ALLOWS you to make a wider range of tones using the two filters (before we even get to velocity etc), each filter suiting a different type of sound.. for ex rezzy sweeps may sound sweeter with the SSM but bass can hit a bit harder with the curtis filter (and I'd suggest also with the curtis 3340 VCO chip that went on to be used in MANY classic analogs like OB-XA/8, Jupiter 6, SH-101, Memorymoog...)

The CEM 3340 VCO is, right away, going to give any synth a different tone to an old flaky SSM VCO that was soon abandoned (their filters are great but their VCOs don't seem to have got into many synths) or because they had tuning issues or w/e.

So you're really listening to a cross between a rev 3 and rev 2 when in 'rev 2' mode on a rev 4.. it'll never sound exactly the same, esp vs 40 years old electronics with poss worn caps and needs calibrating... sure that can sound good to the ear at times but the rev 4 is a different beast overall.. the P10 especially with the much more suitable polyphony for lighter sounds or stack/poly unison for things the old P5s couldn't do at all.

So it's not about chasing the last % of original sound (hence it's not a rev 2 reissue) but a rev 4 taking aspects of the past to be able to recreate most sounds 99% and do new things too... also in many cases the Rev 4 actually sounds BETTER doing a number of sounds than a Rev 3.. and poss rev 2... Alex Ball's video shows this. The Rev 4 sounds warmer and bit more low end (more powerful and commanding) while the rev 3 sounded thinner and a bit whispier... both sound great, both are great depending on your taste.

We all know a rev 2 is/was the holy grail for 'tone' but there comes a time when something like Rev4 comes more than close enough AND adds on so much good stuff without spoiling it when you say.. ok i'll take the $4k synth with a great keyboard and no issues + 5 more voices over the $10k collector's item with crappy keybed, constant service worries, voice stealing when you don't want it.. and never a chance to use the classic 3340 VCO or switchable filters.

IN context is really what all this is about... every synth can do something better than another synth, but on balance and at  a price? what is REALLY the 'better' instrument and wiser investment NOW?

Prophet 10 rev 4 is the ultimate prophet synthesizer.

Prophet 5 rev 2's are now expensive ticking time bombs with an occasionally more organic sound that doesn't count for much next to the sounds you can get out of a P10 rev 4 anyway!

I 100% agree with all this. Finally someone said it correctly. So yes, there is a difference (thank you for agreeing and admitting it) and now the only debate can be what's that difference worth to you personally. Some people spend 25k on a turntable and don't thinking nothing of it. Meanwhile others think they are going overboard and breaking the bank on $400 Technique 1200's. So believe me, I see what you're saying and agree. But we all have to come in terms with the fact that "better investment" is such a subjective term. And this is all I was pointing out. There is a difference, hell some might even say its worse, and I respect that. My statements was directed at those saying there is no difference so why spend xyz when the rev.4 is out.

As much as I agree that if right this instant you asked me what's a better purchase bang for buck wise, I would said rev.4.. yes !! But thats just our opinion. Since we both agree there is a difference in sound between the two, now we need to rewind and say, ok but what if that difference is worth it to some other investor for his needs/desires ? You know how some super rich people put a lot of weight on something we wouldn't.

I will say this, I bought my original rev2 for $1,400 back in 2006. It was in near mint condition (and still is), and I have had it serviced 1 time so far, still sounds great, works great, so I am really happy with it, so my outlook might be different. I honestly can not believe how much they are going for if you are correct about that 10k. lol Thats ridiculous.

And I will leave with this - you did say "investment" - are we really right in out thinking then ? Cause if prices continue to rise like they have in the last 10 years for the next 10 years... then actually I bet the rev.2 is indeed a better "investment" as far as resale value. In theory, all the rev.2 needs to do is double its value and you make 10k. For the rev.4 to make you 10k it would need to over triple its value and IMO, that won't happen before the rev.2 doubles its current value.

[Scrypt]

I still have an early Prophet V in storage, and it was never retrofitted with MIDI, but when I get a larger place, I'll definitely use for the character that it has developed. The flaws and drift make it a unique sound source apart from its classic sound. It has a body and unpredictability that make me reluctant to service it. Whereas my Prophet 10 module is infinitely more useful in a MIDI setup, but has a controlled sound whether I employ the vintage knob or not.