Rev 2 firmware is it just me?

[Sacred Synthesis]

I was going to buy a pro 3, but after my experience with dsi/sequential giving up on the rev2 I’m reconsidering.

Wish they would communicate like fractal audio with their customers and make things abundantly clear. Really disappointed…

I don't blame you, Double-u, but don't let this situation spoil the rest for you.  Sequential does make fantastic instruments, and the Pro 3 is right up there with the best.  Don't miss out on it just because of this discussion about one instrument.

[CCrow]

Jok3r, how many times did I encourage people here to believe this update was coming?  And you often enough challenged me with, "You still sure about that?"  You even asked me once to clarify my use of the word "soon."  And who looks like the fool now? 

It's crazy to me how they would have you give hope for an update if there really is nothing coming. It somewhat makes me feel like a fool as well based on the fact that, whether I should have or not (really should not), I partially got a Rev 2 hoping that update would come and make it an even better instrument. If an update does materialize and actually fixes or even adds things, I was planning on getting the 16v upgrade.

I was going to buy a pro 3, but after my experience with dsi/sequential giving up on the rev2 I’m reconsidering.

I am in the same boat here. The Pro 3 looks great but I can't help but feel like a different mono/para synth might be a better experience based on all this. Plus I would be spending more than I did on my Rev 2 risking another something like this...

[Sacred Synthesis]

My best guess is that recently there was a change.  I don't believe I was hoodwinked or lied to.  I think a decision was made that put an end to the expected update.  It probably has no relation, but it's hard not to wonder about the Focusrite acquisition.  I'm holding our for a reasonable explanation.  I'm still willing to give Sequential the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe someone's on vacation or is out sick, but the silence is deafening.

The mystery is that the Prophet '08 is the classic DSI instrument that was taken up anew by Sequential.  The Evolvers aside, it was the instrument that earned Dave Smith his new name and reputation.  Its final revision should be the company's pride and joy, the favorite child that gets all the love and attention.  Instead, it's left hanging in this unfinished state.  Honestly, it's bloody sad.  And considering how we musicians feel towards our instruments, it's hard not to take this personally.

[shiihs]

My best guess is that recently there was a change.  I don't believe I was hoodwinked or lied to.  I think a decision was made that put an end to the expected update.  I'm holding our for a reasonable explanation.

I tend to agree. After all, staff member Pym at some point found some extra room to make a version of the OS with improved support for alternative tunings (see thread https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,3503.0.html ). If absolutely no spare room were available, how would he have done that? (or did he throw out other features?). Maybe it's more a matter of "new bosses, new laws". Maybe focusrite has decided to concentrate on other things. We all feel a bit betrayed by the lack of bug fixing in an expensive instrument (and I imagine some of the sequential staff might be bothered by it as well, but perhaps they no longer have much to say about it?). This is all pure speculation of course, I have no insight whatsoever in the daily operations or mid-term motives of sequential or focusrite.

[maxter]

If absolutely no spare room were available, how would he have done that? (or did he throw out other features?).

No features were thrown out on that OS... And I call BS-deluxe on the excuse of "no room for updates". Whatever else can be explained, that one's just... 

Maybe it's more a matter of "new bosses, new laws". Maybe focusrite has decided to concentrate on other things. We all feel a bit betrayed by the lack of bug fixing in an expensive instrument (and I imagine some of the sequential staff might be bothered by it as well, but perhaps they no longer have much to say about it?). This is all pure speculation of course, I have no insight whatsoever in the daily operations or mid-term motives of sequential or focusrite.

Good point! Even so, it wasn't about 2½ years ago that Focusrite acquired SCI...

LoboLives also made a good point on another thread:
"What I am saying is if there will be no more features or updates added perhaps it's best to just make a post addressing it as such like was done on the Tempest. That way it'll provide closure and not have you get bombarded with the same questions. That's all." 2017-11-08
https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,2032.msg22240.html#msg22240

And I think the instrument Razmo mentioned being abandoned by DSI/SCI was the Tempest, not the Evolver.
https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1251642-buying-dsi-tempest-2019-a.html

I do find some similarities in the comments on that thread, from about post #22 onwards... with the Rev2. Such as "I sold mine in frustration at the promises of OS updates that never arrived."

[double-u]

My best guess is that recently there was a change.  I don't believe I was hoodwinked or lied to.  I think a decision was made that put an end to the expected update.  It probably has no relation, but it's hard not to wonder about the Focusrite acquisition.  I'm holding our for a reasonable explanation.  I'm still willing to give Sequential the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe someone's on vacation or is out sick, but the silence is deafening.

The mystery is that the Prophet '08 is the classic DSI instrument that was taken up anew by Sequential.  The Evolvers aside, it was the instrument that earned Dave Smith his new name and reputation.  It should be the company's pride and joy, the favorite child that gets all the love and attention.  Instead, it's left hanging in this unfinished state.  Honestly, it's bloody sad.

Any way you can contact and confirm or refute the response djinn received?

[Sacred Synthesis]

My best guess is that recently there was a change.  I don't believe I was hoodwinked or lied to.  I think a decision was made that put an end to the expected update.  It probably has no relation, but it's hard not to wonder about the Focusrite acquisition.  I'm holding our for a reasonable explanation.  I'm still willing to give Sequential the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe someone's on vacation or is out sick, but the silence is deafening.

The mystery is that the Prophet '08 is the classic DSI instrument that was taken up anew by Sequential.  The Evolvers aside, it was the instrument that earned Dave Smith his new name and reputation.  It should be the company's pride and joy, the favorite child that gets all the love and attention.  Instead, it's left hanging in this unfinished state.  Honestly, it's bloody sad.

Any way you can contact and confirm or refute the response djinn received?

I've already done so and am still waiting for a response.  I'm holding out until I get the final word on this.  Yes, I'm making excuses based on the slightest splinter of hope - hoping against hope.

[jok3r]

Jok3r, how many times did I encourage people here to believe this update was coming?  I did so on multiple threads to keep the spirits high.  And you often enough challenged me with, "You still sure about that?"  You even asked me once to clarify my use of the word "soon."  And who looks like the fool now? 

I don't think you look like a fool in this one. They told you the one thing, and did the other... or at least it seems like that by now.

I've already done so and am still waiting for a response.  I'm holding out until I get the final word on this.  Yes, I'm making excuses based on the slightest splinter of hope - hoping against hope.

I'm still hoping, too. And I hope you will get a response very soon.

As others said: basically what annoys me the most is the kind of communication SEQ is doing. If there will be no more updates then please tell us! And don't let potential customers buy a buggy synth with a promised and never coming update any longer. The marketing ethics behind this behaviour are very questionable, too.

I call out for a bug-fixing update, or at least an official statement that the product will stay in this state forever.

[Pym]

When we design things we try and use the cheapest/smallest things we can so we can make things affordable. Finding a balance between that and knowing that we may want to add things down the line is difficult. Sometimes we have a lot of memory or processing power left (usually monosynths), sometimes we push RIGHT up to the edge (Tempest, Rev2). It's very difficult to tell the future accurately.

Right now we have no time/space available in the DSP. It isn't that we can't do these things, it's that the lack of space means we would have to go back through and optimize a TON of stuff just to make sure we don't cause any problems. Coding is always finding a balance between processor time, how much space the code takes, and the processor cost. Even simple fixes at this point take up a lot of our time. It's one thing to fix a bug or add a feature if you don't need to worry about code space, it's completely different if you have to add to that an optimization pass that may or may not be enough. The chip shortage issues from the pandemic made us scramble to handle all sorts of other things just to keep things moving and as Sequential we don't have dedicated departments, people switch roles as important things come up, so in a lot of ways it's just bad timing.

Not trying to say any of the bugs aren't important, just giving some perspectives from the things we're dealing with. I try very hard not to mislead you guys and will try and chime in periodically here but you probably would rather I keep fixing bugs and adding features =)

My best guess is that recently there was a change.  I don't believe I was hoodwinked or lied to.  I think a decision was made that put an end to the expected update.  I'm holding our for a reasonable explanation.

I tend to agree. After all, staff member Pym at some point found some extra room to make a version of the OS with improved support for alternative tunings (see thread https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,3503.0.html ). If absolutely no spare room were available, how would he have done that? (or did he throw out other features?). Maybe it's more a matter of "new bosses, new laws". Maybe focusrite has decided to concentrate on other things. We all feel a bit betrayed by the lack of bug fixing in an expensive instrument (and I imagine some of the sequential staff might be bothered by it as well, but perhaps they no longer have much to say about it?). This is all pure speculation of course, I have no insight whatsoever in the daily operations or mid-term motives of sequential or focusrite.

[creativespiral]

Hah...  @pym, thanks for chiming in.   Dude, if you could just look into that one bug with layered gated sequencer stepping issue (Ticket #48090), it would be sooo appreciated!!   If it's a major deal to fix it, then so be it....  but if it could be easily patched up and release a final version 2.0 Version, it would make me so happy (and many others).   Plus leaving Rev2 on a 2.0 release fw rather than 1.1.5.9 beta would look better from an optics standpoint.

Bonus:  I will personally send a bottle of your favorite fancy Tequila or other celebration drink to the offices, and sing your praises like a bard from the Witcher.    Plus I'll make some videos showing off the capabilities of layered arp step sequencing with musical mod intervals and layered voice modeling with Rev2.   If this one item works as intended, you'll be able to do some really cool new stuff with the Rev2.

[maxter]

When we design things we try and use the cheapest/smallest things we can so we can make things affordable. Finding a balance between that and knowing that we may want to add things down the line is difficult. Sometimes we have a lot of memory or processing power left (usually monosynths), sometimes we push RIGHT up to the edge (Tempest, Rev2). It's very difficult to tell the future accurately.

Thanks Pym, it means a lot to have someone from SCI chime in, to let us know what's up.

Right now we have no time/space available in the DSP. It isn't that we can't do these things, it's that the lack of space means we would have to go back through and optimize a TON of stuff just to make sure we don't cause any problems. Coding is always finding a balance between processor time, how much space the code takes, and the processor cost. Even simple fixes at this point take up a lot of our time. It's one thing to fix a bug or add a feature if you don't need to worry about code space, it's completely different if you have to add to that an optimization pass that may or may not be enough. The chip shortage issues from the pandemic made us scramble to handle all sorts of other things just to keep things moving and as Sequential we don't have dedicated departments, people switch roles as important things come up, so in a lot of ways it's just bad timing.

Just as I suspected... but I really appreciate you telling us straight up, so we don't have to speculate further.

Not trying to say any of the bugs aren't important, just giving some perspectives from the things we're dealing with. I try very hard not to mislead you guys and will try and chime in periodically here but you probably would rather I keep fixing bugs and adding features =)

Yes, PLEASE do... fix bugs and add features!    I'm certain that I speak for everyone, when saying we're all in favor of that.

I totally agree with creativespiral, the sequencer bug HAS to go...

I would very much like to know the answer to the question Lloyd posed in the picture... is there any future chance, or have you abandoned it? Because I'm actually just about to sell my Rev2... so it would be highly appreciated.

Thanks again Pym!

[Sacred Synthesis]

My response to all of this would be the same as always - contrary, I realize, to what everyone else here wants.  If I could have it my way, I would prefer simpler instruments, fewer features, not pushing things to the brink, and with an emphasis on maintenance.  Make instruments that are strong in the fundamentals of synthesis, purged of known flaws, rock-solidly reliable, and kept in production for longer periods of time. 

I know, I know....   

[Manbird]

My response to all of this would be the same as always - contrary, I realize, to what everyone else here wants.  If I could have it my way, I would prefer simpler instruments, fewer features, not pushing things to the brink, and with an emphasis on maintenance.  Make instruments that are strong in the fundamentals of synthesis, purged of known flaws, rock-solidly reliable, and kept in production for longer periods of time. 

I know, I know....   

Hey buddy, wanna buy a Prophet 5? I know a guy who knows a guy...

[MPM]

Not trying to say any of the bugs aren't important, just giving some perspectives from the things we're dealing with. I try very hard not to mislead you guys and will try and chime in periodically here but you probably would rather I keep fixing bugs and adding features =)

So your perspective is that it's okay to waste time adding "vintage" modes to the perfectly operational OB~6 and P6, but not spend time fixing Rev.2 BUGS?
Personally I'm completely happy with the features the Rev.2 originally shipped with, but it's completely lame that it still has bugs today. That is completely unprofessional.
Remember, I am the customer. You at DSI/Sequential are a provider. I am paying your bills and sending your kids to school.
I hope Focusrite make some long overdue staff changes and find people who can make bug fixes, not excuses.

[Pym]

I understand it is frustrating. I have the same reaction with every single synth I have ever owned (and there have been lots) and not a single one of them is bug free. Every single piece of software I’ve ever used has bugs. Even when we reach bug free states we find new one because our users push the boundaries of what is possible on the instrument and in new combinations. It’s the only constant i know of in product development… there will always be another bug to fix, another improvement to be made

So when is the right time to retire a product? If you have to spend 20 hours to fix a bug only 2 people out of thousands have mentioned it, is it worth it? How about 25 hours and 1 person? What if you spend 10 hours and realize it will take more and may not fix it? Where do you draw the line? How do you balance that when you need to make new things to survive as a company? I ask myself those questions every single day. I hate disappointing people and I hate leaving bugs I know frustrate our users, even just a single person, but sometimes we have to make difficult choices.

We do learn from our choices and we are adding resources rapidly to do better in the future but, as I said, this was a profoundly difficult year for us, our customers, our suppliers and everybody we know.

I can’t make any promises right now because so much is up in the air. What I can say is we do not take this lightly and the amount of chaos and extra work due to the rippling effects of the pandemic has hit us hard. Balancing work and life and trying not to burnout isn’t easy, as I’m sure many people on here can understand right now. I’m even here posting publicly not because it is in my job description, but because I believe in what we do and open myself up to exactly that sort of criticism because I know how it feels and I want to do better than what I experienced with other companies.

Not trying to say any of the bugs aren't important, just giving some perspectives from the things we're dealing with. I try very hard not to mislead you guys and will try and chime in periodically here but you probably would rather I keep fixing bugs and adding features =)

So your perspective is that it's okay to waste time adding "vintage" modes to the perfectly operational OB~6 and P6, but not spend time fixing Rev.2 BUGS?
Personally I'm completely happy with the features the Rev.2 originally shipped with, but it's completely lame that it still has bugs today. That is completely unprofessional.
Remember, I am the customer. You at DSI/Sequential are a provider. I am paying your bills and sending your kids to school.
I hope Focusrite make some long overdue staff changes and find people who can make bug fixes, not excuses.

[Hector Space]

As someone who owned a P6, sold it because of its limitations and considered buying a Rev2 but instead bought a Novation Summit I can say (hand on heart) Focusrite don’t know how to run Novation properly and since the sad passing of Chris Huggett things have ground to a halt many very basic bugs exist on the Summit and nothing has been done.

So the grass is definitely not greener nor is Focusrite a harbinger of positive change.

In fact as an experienced real-time software engineer with many years of embedded firmware development under my belt although I can understand the shoe-string existence that most of these products endure , I find it hard to accept that there has been no learning done. The same mistakes in development approach are generally repeated or engrained. It’s like Dave has been on Groundhog Day since the late 70’s. And we've been encouraging him!

Really what should have happened a SCI or indeed Novation, is the code should have been modularised and optimised based on the previous experiences. This would have made and could make building new designs like grabbing Lego blocks. ( blocks just like a synth has envelope shapers, oscillators, LFOs, voice allocation, a mod matrix, arpeggiators, midi processing, a sequencer etc, etc) Yes this may not be as tight as hand coding each product but the cost savings in development time and product debugging would have out stripped the slight increases in processor performance and flash rom needed to support it - and I definitely don’t mean Microsoft bloatware!!. By taking the tested module approach you are basically developing assets of value for the future not like at present where each machine is like a little adventure.
But I’m sure that is exactly how Dave’s engineering culture likes it to be.

Will there be any changes to this pattern in the future? I doubt it. Basically because we're all human and we all like to reinvent the wheel.

[CCrow]

I understand it is frustrating. I have the same reaction with every single synth I have ever owned (and there have been lots) and not a single one of them is bug free. Every single piece of software I’ve ever used has bugs. Even when we reach bug free states we find new one because our users push the boundaries of what is possible on the instrument and in new combinations. It’s the only constant i know of in product development… there will always be another bug to fix, another improvement to be made.

So when is the right time to retire a product? If you have to spend 20 hours to fix a bug only 2 people out of thousands have mentioned it, is it worth it? How about 25 hours and 1 person? What if you spend 10 hours and realize it will take more and may not fix it? Where do you draw the line? How do you balance that when you need to make new things to survive as a company? I ask myself those questions every single day. I hate disappointing people and I hate leaving bugs I know frustrate our users, even just a single person, but sometimes we have to make difficult choices.

As a Rev 2 owner and computer science major, I do appreciate and understand both of your updates Pym, so thank you. I'm glad to know a bit more about what's going on and can sympathize with the struggle.

Regarding the P6 and OB-6 talk in this thread, from my perspective, I imagine a lot of people who saw the update to those probably assumed that something similar would be coming to the Rev 2 next since it came out after the other two. I know they are completely different platforms but that was just my initial assumption. I didn't know about how long it had been since an update had been made to the Rev 2 at that point.

Also from the outside perspective, I feel like if some bugs have been fixed without side effects/stability issues, another small update would have been at least a sign something has been happening, and the last beta only fixed one bug so this doesn't seem crazy.

Hah...  @pym, thanks for chiming in.   Dude, if you could just look into that one bug with layered gated sequencer stepping issue (Ticket #48090), it would be sooo appreciated!!   If it's a major deal to fix it, then so be it....  but if it could be easily patched up and release a final version 2.0 Version, it would make me so happy (and many others).   Plus leaving Rev2 on a 2.0 release fw rather than 1.1.5.9 beta would look better from an optics standpoint.

Also put a couple more votes on fixing that layer gated sequencer bug, both for me who bought the Rev 2 after seeing Creative Spiral's videos on VCM, as well as the many other people who have watched the videos on the topic, and might want to use it on two layers.

[PChamaeleoMH]

If it seems as though the sequencer bug fix is only supported by a small number, please count me in as a (previously silent) vote for the bug fix(es) too...
I'd dreamt of MPE implementation and the "vintage mode" addition, but the known bug fixes seem a v. high priority for leaving the Rev2 in a polished state, whereas the additions are just hopes/wishes.

[CCrow]

Yes, if the sequencer bug fix seems like a minority desire, please count me in as a (previously silent) vote for the bug fix(es) too...
I'd hoped for MPE implementation and the "vintage mode" addition, but the known bug fixes seem a v. high priority for leaving the Rev2 in a polished state, whereas the additions are just hopes/wishes.

Thank you for adding to our voice and I too would love those additions if possible but I wouldn't want to push it either. Maybe a bugfix update first and then a feature update if it seems possible after that?

[Sacred Synthesis]

So when is the right time to retire a product? If you have to spend 20 hours to fix a bug only 2 people out of thousands have mentioned it, is it worth it? How about 25 hours and 1 person? What if you spend 10 hours and realize it will take more and may not fix it? Where do you draw the line? How do you balance that when you need to make new things to survive as a company? I ask myself those questions every single day. I hate disappointing people and I hate leaving bugs I know frustrate our users, even just a single person, but sometimes we have to make difficult choices.

I realize that ugly practical realities beyond your control influence when an instrument will be retired.  On the other hand, it's so exasperating to go through these predictable update issues, to wait literally for years, only to see an instrument reach its relative maturity and then be retired a few years later.  It wouldn't be as frustrating if there wasn't this long period of waiting for something to be completed.  And those years, during which some of us are waiting to buy the instrument, consume a large amount of its life span.

I know what's going to happen, and it's happened to me before.  We'll wait and plead and wait and beg, you'll finally release a bug fix, and then the Rev2 will be retired two years later.  All that waiting and hoping; we finally get what we've asked for, and then, "Bang," it's gone from the Sequential shelves.  During those two years, I'll be selling my Prophet '08 keyboards and modules, intending to replace them with Rev2s.  And before I get there, a note on your Facebook page will calmly announce that production has ended for the Rev2.  Ugh!

For those of us with little disposable income, selling and buying a substantial amount of expensive music equipment can take years.  During and after the pandemic, it's nearly impossible to get people to come to your home and buy a used instrument.  Everybody still has the virus jitters.  That's the reason for my personal frustration over this, Chris, and it's why I've been emailing you guys every few months for two or three years.  I wanted a heads-up on this.  I would have been happier to have been told three years ago that there would be no further work done on the Rev2.

The announcement from Brian in Djinn's email ("As the Rev2 codebase is at its maximum per the onboard processor, there are currently no plans to update the Rev2 OS or add new features.") hit me like a kick in the pants.  I mean, for how long have you guys known this?!  Thank God Djinn copied and posted it here, or we'd still be completely in the dark about this.  That crucial bit of information should have been announced here directly by the company to its forum members.  My first reaction was, "That's it; I'm done with these people.  I'm switching over to Korg.  No, wait - Behringer!"

Chris, I know it's been a difficult year for you and for everyone else at Sequential.  But, pretty pretty please with a cherry on top, could you guys communicate with us a little more on the most important issues, especially on updates?  Your work designing instruments is very important to you, but our work making music with your instruments is equally important to us.  And it needn't be this frustrating.