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Rev2 Sounding Kind of Thin [Problem Resolved]

Rev2 Sounding Kind of Thin [Problem Resolved]
« on: April 18, 2021, 10:15:13 AM »
I'm asking advice here because it is sounding kind of thin and I have used other DCO synths in the past that don't sound as thin.  I'm wondering if it is the new components need to be broken in and aged, or was it designed like that?

Here at 8:15....  That sounds super thin....
https://youtu.be/-YghbbXEFXs?t=495

Versus the first 30 seconds of this clip:
https://soundcloud.com/ryankm/oh-brick-wall-why

I just want to know if it will get thicker as the instrument ages and I use it.  I use to plug that JX 10 into this tube amp that a lot and use it.  I think it had a bad ground or something and maybe it warmed up the components in there compared with other JX  10's?     Anyway I am wondering what other people's experience is with this.

Are there capacitors and things in here that need to be broken in by use?  becasue I remember the Jx 10 just kept getting better and better before broke it trying to install that Vecoven mod. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 12:56:52 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

timboréale

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Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2021, 10:22:52 AM »
No it won't change significantly over time. The Rev2 can sound absolutely thick and immense. But you have to program it carefully to do so. It is not an instant gratification synth, and it is very definitely not a vintage synth. You need to approach programming it much more like a Nord - thickness is in the understanding of the program. This is a feature, not a bug - the Rev2 is a surgical precision analog synth and can be carefully tweaked much like a VST to fit perfectly in a mix or to roar on its own. But - again - this is up to the programmer to create the depth they want.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2021, 10:57:11 AM »
No it won't change significantly over time. The Rev2 can sound absolutely thick and immense. But you have to program it carefully to do so. It is not an instant gratification synth, and it is very definitely not a vintage synth. You need to approach programming it much more like a Nord - thickness is in the understanding of the program. This is a feature, not a bug - the Rev2 is a surgical precision analog synth and can be carefully tweaked much like a VST to fit perfectly in a mix or to roar on its own. But - again - this is up to the programmer to create the depth they want.

Yeah I noticed that.  The filter will clip or distort and give off high freq if I don't program it just so....  If you look at a picture of the inside of a Roland Jx 10 it is full of capacitors, which makes sense.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 11:02:17 AM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2021, 11:00:51 AM »
I like to take advantage of the rev2 strengths. 
 I’ll use it mostly for mid-high frequency sounds. I have other synths that are strong in the low end.
 The rev2 has a nice sharp sound that cuts well thru a mix and those tend to be the sounds I use it for.
 

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2021, 11:04:25 AM »
I like to take advantage of the rev2 strengths. 
 I’ll use it mostly for mid-high frequency sounds. I have other synths that are strong in the low end.
 The rev2 has a nice sharp sound that cuts well thru a mix and those tend to be the sounds I use it for.

yeah it has nice sounds and Is useful I will admit...  I can get bass out of it too, but not at the same time.  I can make the filter do bass, but it masks up the osc...  or if i try to go between filter and bass high and open the transition is kind of rough.

I'm open to trying new things....  Add a cap here or there to make it better:
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 11:34:35 AM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2021, 11:58:18 AM »
I don't think it sounds thin. It can blow you speakers out of the box. A lot of people think more oscillators equals more bass. Actually 1 oscillator (with or without sub) is much fatter. Try it. A second out of sync oscillator will always cancel out something.

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2021, 02:45:25 PM »
I don't think it sounds thin. It can blow you speakers out of the box. A lot of people think more oscillators equals more bass. Actually 1 oscillator (with or without sub) is much fatter. Try it. A second out of sync oscillator will always cancel out something.

Yes.  You can close the filter and make it swell up...

The patch I used was based off this patch here: ...the osc section just tweaked the filter a little bit and envelopes...

  https://youtu.be/zq0L87ribY4 

Don't you think the osc... are a little harsh?  Just like up above.

This is straight into the mic input of a old intel all in one HP someone gave me...  It's a POS...  ,so it makes it sound abnormaly harsh, but it was harsh to begin with.

https://youtu.be/uezDod1yxbU
low volume input normalize a/d

a lot of lows and bass get cut out in a-d there may be a hpf, but that doesn't change the fact that there aren't enough capacitors and the osc are thin and harsh.  For Prophet Rev2 to survive in a digital world full of Korg Prolouges, Moog Ones and Polybrutes; high pass filters   and lousy encoders...  It needs more caps.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 03:33:06 PM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 03:48:33 PM »
this is a patch here that would work much better if there were some bigger caps in there.  Now I'm not an engineer so I don't know the details, but....

https://youtu.be/c1RD8msZt-k

that low end crackle is the crappy a/d conversion, but that high end crackle happening is happening on the voice board.
RCA tape out 10' to a 25' 1/8th analog cable to mic input.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 04:19:27 PM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

timboréale

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Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 04:40:11 PM »
I think you have no idea what you're talking about, frankly.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 05:51:37 PM »
I think you have no idea what you're talking about, frankly.

Than are you denying the distortion in the video? or the fact that the osc sound abnormal thin.  Capacitors are cushions.

I have recordings of other DCO analog polys with big capacitors and different things that sound much much thicker.  They said rev2 was perfect.  I think a few more capacitors here and there would hold the sound a little bit better and make it easier to mix.

Go ahead prove me wrong.  There are things that the Rev2 dose very well, but capacitors are cheap!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 06:02:56 PM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2021, 06:04:28 PM »
The audio examples in those videos do sound bad but I suspect that’s more a problem with your audio routing and what’s being used to process the audio then the rev2 maybe. I’ve had a rev2 8 voice for a few years and now a fairly new Rev2 16 and both never had that amount of distortion/crackle sound to them.
 Those video examples sound like something is not right.

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2021, 06:11:49 PM »
The audio examples in those videos do sound bad but I suspect that’s more a problem with your audio routing and what’s being used to process the audio then the rev2 maybe. I’ve had a rev2 8 voice for a few years and now a fairly new Rev2 16 and both never had that amount of distortion/crackle sound to them.
 Those video examples sound like something is not right.

if you turn down the volume it doesn't crackle in the top of the filter, but than I lose to much in the bass department and lose a lot of grit and dirt and character that made that patch sound interesting.  I played it for like 15 mins after that with headphone straight in and it got smoother becasue I had to turn the volume down...  not voice board per se..., but I 'm not getting enough out of the osc section right now.  I'll keep working it.  Jx 10 had this analog stereo chorus built in so I have to take that into consideration.

like if it had bigger capacitors than there would be more sonicly that the rev2 could hit the a/d converter with.  Right now it sounds thin.  Go back to the first video.  It's all the same a/d converter....  Evan the old JX 10 recordings I was plugging a cassette tape straight into a 1/8th analog mic...  I had a HP g70 Intel duo core...  But all Intel so this is similiar.

If you go back to that first video...  There are some big capacitors involved [big compared to prophet rev2] before the sound hits the a/d converter...  And at the end the rev 2 next to guitar sounding thin.  A single coil Stratocaster.

I guess the amplification system all the way from the osc. section to the output needs to be tuned up with bigger caps.  This is the limit of my knowledge because I'm not an engineer.

Here is a version where I mixed slightly differently and bypassed some preamps and went strait into a/d from mixer....  I turned the bass up 4db toi make up four lousy a/d converter, but this certain part with the bass guitar I did doesn't come through as clearly that is why I had originally not posted it.
https://youtu.be/_VDY2qDuL5w?t=502
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 07:41:49 PM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2021, 09:31:05 PM »
I think that ryankm is pulling our chains... Lousy a/d converters wouldn't make a bit (pun intended) of difference with that kind of random noise.  ::)
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

maxter

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Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2021, 04:21:26 AM »

I'm open to trying new things....  Add a cap here or there to make it better:


There are loads of capacitors in that picture, it's just that they're SMD's... and just HOW do you think "bigger caps" would make the Rev2 better sounding? Did you just open an OLD synth, visually notice the bigger capacitors and conclude they're responsible for the synths sound? It's generally not a good idea to "add a cap here or there", as these are intricately designed CIRCUITS. You do know many old synths get re-capped, for worn-out caps? With something as simple as a passive low- or highpass filter circuit, sure, you can change a cap or resistor to change the cutoff points, but most beyond that is no go for me... The Rev2, as many other newer synths, are designed to be STABLE and RELIABLE, DIGITALLY controlled expecting a proper circuit, and NOT "vintage" (in the sense of unstable and unreliable). If that's what you're after, get a vintage synth instead, or program the Rev2 to sound more vintage-y, there are several ways. Mine certainly doesn't sound "thin"...

https://somanytech.com/smd-capacitor-surface-mount-capacitor/

Resistors, too, used to be a lot bigger, just have a look at old 70's synths... does that mean the resistors "sound better", just because they're BIGGER? No. They're still just resistors, just as capacitors are just capacitors. The actual size doesn't really matter, as long as they're spec'ed high enough to handle whatever is required for the circuit. The RIGHT value of Farads for the job, and a high enough Voltage-tolerance for the particular circuit (or they may explode, which you DON'T want). I've modded electrical fly-swatters into wasp-terminators with HUGE film capacitors that handle 2000V but still are only 470nF, only reason being that they're less likely to explode, as the output produced is about a million Volts or so, enough to explode a wasp, and the bang enough to make your heart jump. If you look at the chart linked above, there are SMD caps at 6800nF, and they're a LOT smaller than my 470nF's, like 1000x smaller. So size isn't necessarily an indicator of anything, especially not on modern synths that mostly operate at low voltages, with little risk of blowing capacitors. What difference would a "bigger" cap do? The output levels are ALREADY very HOT all through the Rev2 board.

If anything, "add a cap here or there", will likely just mess up the circuit and something will break sooner rather than later, without benefits. Unless you REALLY know what you're doing, like if you understand the full circuit of the Rev2, I'd strongly advice against trying to modify it. But hey, I'm no engineer either, though the fly-swatters I mod only cost $5, and the Rev2 is a bit more... Anyhow, good luck with those caps!
The Way the Truth and the Life

chysn

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Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2021, 06:46:46 AM »
I think that ryankm is pulling our chains...

Yeah, I got that from the audio clips in the original post. This thread is one big troll.
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Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2021, 10:12:52 AM »
I think you have no idea what you're talking about, frankly.

Reading the other posts now, yeah!! I Agree!

A capacitor has a purpose, the keep the voltage for a bit, depending on the capacity, longer or shorter, that is for DC. In the LP circuit it is a sort of resistor for which the resistance depends on the frequency of the signal, they call it impedance., that is for AC. The higher the frequency, the more is drained to the ground.

The size doesn't change the sound, the capacity maybe. But not necessarily in a good way. Also depends on what type of low pass filter we are talking about.

From what I hear in the video is that you don't need more capacitors, you need more cowbell!!!

« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 10:29:14 AM by RonGerrist »

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2021, 10:25:34 AM »
Someting I did a while ago. Nothing special and not mastered. Straight from the REV2 to the tracks in Cubase and exported the wav file. Be careful with your speakers. It has way too much low-end (too many capacitors).

https://soundcloud.com/onelittlefonzie/stripped-mellow

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2021, 09:40:23 PM »
Thanks guys for the feedback and info.  Ill come back here and sum up all the info when I get more computer time...  No need to worry about blowing up amps.  I do most my listening on a bluetooth speaker and i have a stereo tube amp that I put a maxed out really heavy speaker load on that can pretty much eat any signal ever synthesized.  A technichian is working on my tube amp right now and going to replace all the caps.  He explained a bit how it worked but i have concussion right now im dealing with and cant drink right now so ill look forward to hearing it again when I pick it up.


Here is a track of Prophet rev2 next to chroma polaris runiing off tape over tube amp and recorded with cell phone and digitaly mastered....



News Flash:  Prophet Rev2 sounds thin... and is easy to distinguish against the Fender Polaris's VCO wich is not neccisarily known for being thick.

fyi  there are 2 seperate prophet rev2 tracks in this all 16 voice mode. and one fender chroma polaris...   i  happen to like dco's in a mix where vcos sound pretty there is something about dco's that are fun.


Listen to Attack Of The Weirdos by Ryan Murphy on #SoundCloud
https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/9v14m

I post this here becUse they sound thin in a good way where it kind of helps the rest of evrything going on with out dominating.  I also have it doing bass stuff in bottem end to, but if you notice the Polaris is much more dominant here.  A further in depth analysis will show that it is the filter that is doing all the work of making the prophet bassy and thick where as naked the osc themselves seem thin.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 10:16:13 PM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2021, 12:55:38 AM »
Well, there is some awesome Postmodernism going on here, but I'm not sure whether I mean the writing, the performance as a whole (inc. posts and links), or (less likely) the linked tracks. The linked audio augments the written performance beautifully. "Bravo!" but not "Encore!"...
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OTHERS: RME_FirefaceUCX, KorgWavedrum, MPC_ONE, ElektronDigitakt

Re: Rev2 Sounding kind of thin
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2021, 05:56:35 PM »
Well, there is some awesome Postmodernism going on here, but I'm not sure whether I mean the writing, the performance as a whole (inc. posts and links), or (less likely) the linked tracks. The linked audio augments the written performance beautifully. "Bravo!" but not "Encore!"...

yes, yes...   I am well aware that there is a lot of work i need to do on my end before we go there, but now I am thinking it is broken again....

https://youtu.be/czS5kNsOIhU

I  was listening to this.  It was one of the first things I made with it.  I had a new computer too differrent from now.  A motherboard with 6 audio capacitors...  amd 3960x processor...   I was experimenting in audacity with 768khz audio project and I blasted the mic input with audio from a mixer with the prophet rev2... 




now i still have this patch and i may of had the signal overdriven, but it doesn't sound like that at all anymore...  a lot thinner or smaller and it crinkly...

https://youtu.be/rHG-iTfFhGI

I play the original patch the way it was intended and then I open up the filter and it is a square saw sync and it sounds like the square wave is messed up.  Either way it is super thin compared to as with before.  Like something is broken now.

I closed the filter more turned up the volume a little bit and tweaked the envelope and will reveal that some nasty little sounds get through that weren't there before.  Sounds broken to me.

https://youtu.be/fKAWLl-DMgs

Now what I do remember when I made that patch is that I had it at max volume and I was trying to make this fat key patch that I could like sub bomb bass things with my left hand and play keys with the right.  It was the first time I sat there and tryed to get something out of the filter like that and I had it pushed to the max.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 06:45:19 PM by ryankm »
16 voice prophet rev2, chroma polaris, minibrute, bass & guitars