Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis

Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« on: March 08, 2021, 03:28:42 PM »
Vintage Knob Feature Request:

Either:
1. Adjust the Max Values of the Vintage Knob so Filter ADR Timing is scaled down by a factor of 2x and Filter Cutoff Values down by a factor of 5x.  (and a couple other slight variations to values as outlined in video below... ie: add a bit of offset between Osc1/2 variance, shuffle max delta between voices)

OR

2. Add another variant of the Vintage Knob, selectable from Globals, so instead of just "Off, On" choices, we have "Slop, Vintage 1, Vintage 2"  For Vintage 2 mode, use the exact same methodology and logic, but just change the max values as outlined/recommended in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7tdp5tvopU

Based on the analysis I did, and being a programmer (I know, dangerous statement following.. ;) ), I'm guessing this should be a fairly trivial task / easy to implement... seems that there's probably just a small lookup table of max offsets stored, and by changing a couple dozen stored values and re-saving firmware, it could be done in a short period...  of course, I could be mistaken... may be more involved, but the request remains :)

I'm really stoked on having the Vintage Knob, and the methodology for how its implemented is great... but based on working on this topic of voice variance / voice modeling over the past few years, I just think that adjusting the max values will result in it being even better throughout the entire range of the knob... improved vintage character at lower values and also still be usable at 3/4 or even max settings, without having extremely dissonant filter and env temporal offsets.

FYI:  I didn't mention in the video:  I know the initial response might just be "well, just turn the knob down, problem solved"...  while that holds true for many other situations, it doesn't work well in this case, because this one knob controls a large variety of different offsets, and some of them are "off by different magnitudes".    ie:  In my opinion, the Osc 1/2 tuning total offset range is perfect, the ADR timing offsets need to be scaled down by 2x, and the Cutoff variance needs to be scaled back by 5x or so to be more musical/usable.   So, if I turn the dial way back to avoid the extreme dissonance in filter variance, then I loose all the interesting offsets to Osc tuning per voice.   

Again, really great job overall on the implementation, and thanks for porting the Vintage Knob over to P6!  It's great to have on this synth. 

« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 04:08:24 PM by creativespiral »

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
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Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2021, 09:28:50 PM »
Ey, thanks a lot for this video. It is very useful to have a detailed explanation of how the vintage knob works.
Overall, the only thing I don't agree with you is when you said that some results are not good (or useless), on a maximum aperture of the knob. Because, if I think it is too much, you just can turn the knob to the middle, and there you will have the result that you want. Of course is not exactly the same because all the parameters will move at the same time (tune and envelope time, for example), but, even though a vintage synth won't have that behaviour, I think that having the possibility of a waaay to unreal result may conclude in some interesting results when using the synth in a more experimental way.
But again, thanks for the video. Very useful and educative.

Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2021, 09:50:48 PM »
Wow, thanks for this. I hope Sequential will consider this

Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2021, 10:23:23 PM »
Ey, thanks a lot for this video. It is very useful to have a detailed explanation of how the vintage knob works.
Overall, the only thing I don't agree with you is when you said that some results are not good (or useless), on a maximum aperture of the knob. Because, if I think it is too much, you just can turn the knob to the middle, and there you will have the result that you want. Of course is not exactly the same because all the parameters will move at the same time (tune and envelope time, for example), but, even though a vintage synth won't have that behaviour, I think that having the possibility of a waaay to unreal result may conclude in some interesting results when using the synth in a more experimental way.
But again, thanks for the video. Very useful and educative.

You bet.... my feeling is that, if possible, the optimal solution would be to just add a third option to the Globals 3 menu...  so instead of two options (Slop, Vintage), you have three (Slop, Vintage 1, Vintage 2).   Based on the analysis I did, it seems like the max offsets are probably just stored as a small array of numbers... if there could just be another instance of the Vintage mode available with max values like I outlined, it would give an option for a lot more vintage (yet very musical) variance.   

I've spent a lot of time over the past few years researching and experimenting with per voice variance, on a variety of instruments, and I feel pretty strongly that the values I outlined would result in some great sounding character options for P6... improving the vintage 80s type of feel at low and medium values, and making higher values much more usable / less dissonant.     
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 10:24:58 PM by creativespiral »

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
Sound Sets:
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Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2021, 01:21:55 PM »
It would also be could if you could just adjust the amount of vintage to the various destinations independently, so set different amounts of variance for Pitch, Filter, Envelopes, independently, per patch.

Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2022, 11:27:55 AM »
It would also be could if you could just adjust the amount of vintage to the various destinations independently, so set different amounts of variance for Pitch, Filter, Envelopes, independently, per patch.

Yeah, independently is ultimately the best approach, as certain sound designs benefit from different type of per-voice offsets.   On instruments with a voices mod source, or key-step sequencer, you can dial in your own vintage offsets on a per-patch basis (I've done this extensively on Rev2, Polybrute, and Deepmind), and it gives you ultimate control over exactly how organic/vintage/loose each section of the synth is (oscillators, filter params, envelopes, lfos, etc)   

For instruments like P5, P6, OB6 with simpler UIs and more modest mod capabilities, the Vintage Knob approach is a good option though.    As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think the best possibility would be to just have a few different Vintage Knob offset tables that can be selected.   

ie: 
0. Slop Mode (original implementation),
1. Vintage Mode 1 (current vintage table of offsets)
2. Vintage Mode 2 (same as current vintage mode 1, but with Osc1 vs Osc2 separation offsets)
3. Vintage Mode 3 (high osc offsets like current in VM1 + separation, but lower filter cutoff / env ADR offsets)
4. Vintage Mode 4 (only osc offsets and filter cutoff freq offsets, no env ADR or LFO offsets)
5. Vintage Mode 5 (only envelope offsets and LFO rate, no osc or filter freq offsets)


I think that this approach of just having a few different tables of vintage offsets would be the easiest for Seq to implement, and give users the ability to get more control over vintage behavior, depending on whether you're creating a Pad, Strings, Stab, Lead, Bass, or other sound design which will benefit from different Vintage/Organic offset focus.   

The tables of offsets are most likely just 2D arrays of integers that only take up a few kilobytes in firmware... so adding a few more offset lookup tables should require minimal resources..., and with the current OS menu, it would be easy to just have a few more options to select from, in the same way Vintage Mode is currently selected.   

« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 11:29:57 AM by creativespiral »

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
Sound Sets:
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Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2022, 04:23:28 PM »
It would also be could if you could just adjust the amount of vintage to the various destinations independently, so set different amounts of variance for Pitch, Filter, Envelopes, independently, per patch.

Yeah, independently is ultimately the best approach, as certain sound designs benefit from different type of per-voice offsets.   On instruments with a voices mod source, or key-step sequencer, you can dial in your own vintage offsets on a per-patch basis (I've done this extensively on Rev2, Polybrute, and Deepmind), and it gives you ultimate control over exactly how organic/vintage/loose each section of the synth is (oscillators, filter params, envelopes, lfos, etc)   

For instruments like P5, P6, OB6 with simpler UIs and more modest mod capabilities, the Vintage Knob approach is a good option though.    As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think the best possibility would be to just have a few different Vintage Knob offset tables that can be selected.   

ie: 
0. Slop Mode (original implementation),
1. Vintage Mode 1 (current vintage table of offsets)
2. Vintage Mode 2 (same as current vintage mode 1, but with Osc1 vs Osc2 separation offsets)
3. Vintage Mode 3 (high osc offsets like current in VM1 + separation, but lower filter cutoff / env ADR offsets)
4. Vintage Mode 4 (only osc offsets and filter cutoff freq offsets, no env ADR or LFO offsets)
5. Vintage Mode 5 (only envelope offsets and LFO rate, no osc or filter freq offsets)


I think that this approach of just having a few different tables of vintage offsets would be the easiest for Seq to implement, and give users the ability to get more control over vintage behavior, depending on whether you're creating a Pad, Strings, Stab, Lead, Bass, or other sound design which will benefit from different Vintage/Organic offset focus.   

The tables of offsets are most likely just 2D arrays of integers that only take up a few kilobytes in firmware... so adding a few more offset lookup tables should require minimal resources..., and with the current OS menu, it would be easy to just have a few more options to select from, in the same way Vintage Mode is currently selected.   

Jason, have you sent this request via support too? Would be good to as it’ll then definitely get read by someone from the company.

The only downside I see of the various tables is that it is a global menu option and so different tables would need to be selected manually if needed by the user, rather than being stored as part of a preset. Definitely would like to see one version which has no offset on the amp envelope sustain stage.

Pym

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Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2022, 07:50:49 PM »
You may not have seen my Morph implementation in the Pro3, but it was essentially another design experiment on the same problem set which is very similar to what you suggest here

I'll put this in the mindbank to think about =)

It would also be could if you could just adjust the amount of vintage to the various destinations independently, so set different amounts of variance for Pitch, Filter, Envelopes, independently, per patch.

Yeah, independently is ultimately the best approach, as certain sound designs benefit from different type of per-voice offsets.   On instruments with a voices mod source, or key-step sequencer, you can dial in your own vintage offsets on a per-patch basis (I've done this extensively on Rev2, Polybrute, and Deepmind), and it gives you ultimate control over exactly how organic/vintage/loose each section of the synth is (oscillators, filter params, envelopes, lfos, etc)   

For instruments like P5, P6, OB6 with simpler UIs and more modest mod capabilities, the Vintage Knob approach is a good option though.    As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think the best possibility would be to just have a few different Vintage Knob offset tables that can be selected.   

ie: 
0. Slop Mode (original implementation),
1. Vintage Mode 1 (current vintage table of offsets)
2. Vintage Mode 2 (same as current vintage mode 1, but with Osc1 vs Osc2 separation offsets)
3. Vintage Mode 3 (high osc offsets like current in VM1 + separation, but lower filter cutoff / env ADR offsets)
4. Vintage Mode 4 (only osc offsets and filter cutoff freq offsets, no env ADR or LFO offsets)
5. Vintage Mode 5 (only envelope offsets and LFO rate, no osc or filter freq offsets)


I think that this approach of just having a few different tables of vintage offsets would be the easiest for Seq to implement, and give users the ability to get more control over vintage behavior, depending on whether you're creating a Pad, Strings, Stab, Lead, Bass, or other sound design which will benefit from different Vintage/Organic offset focus.   

The tables of offsets are most likely just 2D arrays of integers that only take up a few kilobytes in firmware... so adding a few more offset lookup tables should require minimal resources..., and with the current OS menu, it would be easy to just have a few more options to select from, in the same way Vintage Mode is currently selected.   
Sequential

Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2022, 10:44:23 AM »
Jason, have you sent this request via support too? Would be good to as it’ll then definitely get read by someone from the company.

The only downside I see of the various tables is that it is a global menu option and so different tables would need to be selected manually if needed by the user, rather than being stored as part of a preset. Definitely would like to see one version which has no offset on the amp envelope sustain stage.

Seq is aware  ;D 

Yeah, storing the "type" on a per patch basis would be great.  It should be fairly easy to implement I would think...  a single 3-bit parameter stored per patch would give 8 possible options to switch between (assuming there's an empty space in patch sysex for one more param to be added, with the default being 0=original slop mode).   

Also, agree on the Env Sustain - I would either remove that completely or have it be a percentage based multiplier rather than a fixed offset.   It's problematic as-is, due to unwanted droning... percentage multiplier would ensure that once the sustain hits 0, no matter what the per-voice multiplier is, it would still zero out to silence.   

You may not have seen my Morph implementation in the Pro3, but it was essentially another design experiment on the same problem set which is very similar to what you suggest here

I'll put this in the mindbank to think about =)

Love the P3 morph!   Awesome development!   

For this, I was thinking something different/easier though.    The current methodology/implementation is fine for Vintage Knob.  I'm just assuming that there's a small table of values that represent the MAX vintage values offsets when you turn the knob all the way up.  (one value for each parameter)...  my interpretation is that the knob just scales those values up from 0 offset to their max values in a linear fashion as you turn the knob.   (I could be wrong in my interpretation?)    But if that is the case, my suggestion is just to use the exact same methodology, but just have a few different variants of the Max values that are selectable as Vintage Mode 1, Vintage Mode 2, Vintage Mode 3, etc...   

Each new mini-table of Max values would represent a different Vintage Mode focus, as outlined in my post above.  (and adding a few new arrays of max values should only take up a few kilobytes in firmware.    That would give users the ability to choose which scaling/offset focus they want for the vintage knob.   But the actual operation of the knob would work the same for each variant of the offsets... scaling up from 0-offset to the Max values.   
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 10:47:10 AM by creativespiral »

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
Sound Sets:
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Pym

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Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2022, 11:30:41 AM »
Yep, I get it. That is definitely better given the design constraints. I'll think about it

Jason, have you sent this request via support too? Would be good to as it’ll then definitely get read by someone from the company.

The only downside I see of the various tables is that it is a global menu option and so different tables would need to be selected manually if needed by the user, rather than being stored as part of a preset. Definitely would like to see one version which has no offset on the amp envelope sustain stage.

Seq is aware  ;D 

Yeah, storing the "type" on a per patch basis would be great.  It should be fairly easy to implement I would think...  a single 3-bit parameter stored per patch would give 8 possible options to switch between (assuming there's an empty space in patch sysex for one more param to be added, with the default being 0=original slop mode).   

Also, agree on the Env Sustain - I would either remove that completely or have it be a percentage based multiplier rather than a fixed offset.   It's problematic as-is, due to unwanted droning... percentage multiplier would ensure that once the sustain hits 0, no matter what the per-voice multiplier is, it would still zero out to silence.   

You may not have seen my Morph implementation in the Pro3, but it was essentially another design experiment on the same problem set which is very similar to what you suggest here

I'll put this in the mindbank to think about =)

Love the P3 morph!   Awesome development!   

For this, I was thinking something different/easier though.    The current methodology/implementation is fine for Vintage Knob.  I'm just assuming that there's a small table of values that represent the MAX vintage values offsets when you turn the knob all the way up.  (one value for each parameter)...  my interpretation is that the knob just scales those values up from 0 offset to their max values in a linear fashion as you turn the knob.   (I could be wrong in my interpretation?)    But if that is the case, my suggestion is just to use the exact same methodology, but just have a few different variants of the Max values that are selectable as Vintage Mode 1, Vintage Mode 2, Vintage Mode 3, etc...   

Each new mini-table of Max values would represent a different Vintage Mode focus, as outlined in my post above.  (and adding a few new arrays of max values should only take up a few kilobytes in firmware.    That would give users the ability to choose which scaling/offset focus they want for the vintage knob.   But the actual operation of the knob would work the same for each variant of the offsets... scaling up from 0-offset to the Max values.   
Sequential

Re: Vintage Knob Feature Request, and Analysis
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2022, 03:45:50 PM »
Fantastic. Would love to see this come to all Sequential instruments which use the vintage knob function (P5/10, OB-6, P6 and Take 5).

The multiplier on the envelope sustain is a great idea and would get rid of the unwanted droning.