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Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2

Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« on: February 25, 2021, 04:00:11 PM »
And I've tried everything. I've spent hours trying to chase this down. I have no problem assigning one of the knobs on my S88 to transmit program changes. Works like a charm. But for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get it to send Bank Select changes. CC0, CC32...neither seem to work. Anybody?

timboréale

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Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2021, 04:28:05 PM »
Are you sending the bank select messages on the right channel? CC32 should do it, but only values 1-8 are accepted, all others are ignored. Page 84 of the user manual. Global MIDI Program Enable and MIDI Control Enable should be ON. Of course, you can always check with a MIDI monitor to see if the keyboard is sending the right CC in the first place.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2021, 04:39:32 PM »
Are you sending the bank select messages on the right channel? CC32 should do it, but only values 1-8 are accepted, all others are ignored. Page 84 of the user manual. Global MIDI Program Enable and MIDI Control Enable should be ON. Of course, you can always check with a MIDI monitor to see if the keyboard is sending the right CC in the first place.

Not sure what you mean by "the right channel". Currently transmitting all CC data on MIDI channel 1. Knob is set to CC32, range set to only 1-8. MIDI connections made via USB. First knob is set to transmit program change and is working like a champ. Second set to transmit bank change and nothing.

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2021, 04:47:07 PM »
I checked my MIDI output with MIDIview and I am sending Controller Bank Select 1-8 and nothing else. I'm not a genius, but this isn't my first rodeo and this has me stumped.

timboréale

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Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2021, 05:05:39 PM »
Not sure what you mean by "the right channel". Currently transmitting all CC data on MIDI channel 1. Knob is set to CC32, range set to only 1-8. MIDI connections made via USB. First knob is set to transmit program change and is working like a champ. Second set to transmit bank change and nothing.

Did you check the global settings I mentioned? If MIDI control is OFF then the CCs might be filtered by the Rev2 and ignored.

In terms of channel, CCs are, like notes, sent to a specific MIDI channel. It must match the channel the synth is set to receive on. I don't know your keyboard but sometimes each knob can be on its own channel and it's important to check that the knob sending CC32 is sending on the Rev2's MIDI channel.

Otherwise, all I can suggest is to talk to support.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2021, 05:39:46 PM »
I've checked all those settings, but I'll check them again. And I know what you mean about CC's and midi channels. I'll check that again as well, but I've checked it, and since everything is dictated by track choice in the DAW, I pretty much just stay on MIDI channel 1 on all my external synths. I appreciate all your input.

timboréale

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Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2021, 05:59:52 PM »
since everything is dictated by track choice in the DAW

Ah! DAWs sometimes filter CCs (and track plugins certainly can) - they use them for MIDI learn and their own control sometimes. I don't track *through* a DAW for this reason - ran into so many issues that way. You need to make sure the Rev2 is actually seeing the CC change - on a Mac the app "Midi Monitor" can actually intercept MIDI data going to an outbound port (e.g. between the DAW's output and the USB going to the Rev2 - you would need to be able to do this to validate that the DAW is even passing the CC onwards properly. Note too that some CCs might be filtered while others aren't, so seeing that, for example, the CC for the filter passes but the bank select doesn't doesn't necessarily mean you've not got filtering in place.

Wish I could help you more, but I'm not a big fan of DAWs for tracking through, so I can't really help much on that aspect.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2021, 12:36:21 PM »
When I read through the manual, it didn't look like the MIDI implementation supported bank changes. I did not see any reference to them. That is unless they have been added in a firmware update and I had an outdated manual.

timboréale

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Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2021, 04:46:40 PM »
I posted the exact page number in the manual in which the bank change support is documented a few posts up.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2021, 05:18:28 PM »
I posted the exact page number in the manual in which the bank change support is documented a few posts up.

Page 84 of the manual deals with NRPN Messages. Am I missing something? I see no mention of bank change support on that page, or any of the ones surrounding it. The only mention I'm able to find is on Page 82 in the Transmitted Controller Messages chart. It was always my understanding that 0 and 32 were omitted from the CC number chart because they were already allocated for bank change commands.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have pored over that section of the manual dozens of times trying to find an answer and always come up empty. So I'm simply trying to get some clarity. I'm certainly not beyond making a mistake or not knowing something, so if I'm missing it, please set me straight. I just want it to work.

timboréale

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Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2021, 06:20:26 PM »
https://www.sequential.com/product/prophetrev2/ -> Support on right hand side -> Manual (v.1.2.4 is latest)

I confirm it works just fine when you send it to the right port on the right channel. :)

Oh make sure your global setting for receive control is set to CC not NRPN, of course.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 06:56:33 PM by timboréale »
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2021, 07:47:14 PM »
https://www.sequential.com/product/prophetrev2/ -> Support on right hand side -> Manual (v.1.2.4 is latest)

I confirm it works just fine when you send it to the right port on the right channel. :)

Oh make sure your global setting for receive control is set to CC not NRPN, of course.

Aha! Well, that's two things that are wrong. My manual is outdated (thank you internet) and I've got all the inputs set to NRPN because I'm using a third part editor/librarian and that was it's requirement.

So is it one or the other? Editor/librarian OR CC control?

And a HUGE thank you for following up on this. I really appreciate it.

timboréale

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Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2021, 08:38:05 PM »
So is it one or the other? Editor/librarian OR CC control?

And a HUGE thank you for following up on this. I really appreciate it.

The system is either in CC mode or NRPN mode but not both, correct. I do not see a published NRPN for bank select. Editors usually work with memory via sysex so it is rare that they interact with bank and program select commands as they can "see" all programs and load anything they want to the edit buffer. Thus it is not unusual at all for CC based operations such as program control (which are usually live performance or studio playback controls and thus typically using CC) and NRPN based precise editing to be separate modes of operation. That said, I don't know if it is a technical reason or just a limitation of memory or even simply an oversight as to why the bank select CCs couldn't function in NRPN mode (or for that matter any CCs at all) - its just not how this synth works is all.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2021, 01:41:59 PM »
https://www.sequential.com/product/prophetrev2/ -> Support on right hand side -> Manual (v.1.2.4 is latest)

I confirm it works just fine when you send it to the right port on the right channel. :)

Oh make sure your global setting for receive control is set to CC not NRPN, of course.

Am I correct in assuming that by "receive control", you mean the Global setting "MIDI Param Rcv"?
If so, I switched that to CC, tried transmitting on all 16 channels with no results.

And by "the right port" what do you mean? As in, if I was using an 8x8 MIDI I/O like an MTP AV and had to select the correct port over which I was transmitting? Because I am using USB to communicate with all my outboard synths, so port selection doesn't enter into it as far as I know.

Again, not being a smartass, just trying to clarify.

timboréale

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Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2021, 02:29:35 PM »
https://www.sequential.com/product/prophetrev2/ -> Support on right hand side -> Manual (v.1.2.4 is latest)

I confirm it works just fine when you send it to the right port on the right channel. :)

Oh make sure your global setting for receive control is set to CC not NRPN, of course.

Am I correct in assuming that by "receive control", you mean the Global setting "MIDI Param Rcv"?
If so, I switched that to CC, tried transmitting on all 16 channels with no results.

And by "the right port" what do you mean? As in, if I was using an 8x8 MIDI I/O like an MTP AV and had to select the correct port over which I was transmitting? Because I am using USB to communicate with all my outboard synths, so port selection doesn't enter into it as far as I know.

Again, not being a smartass, just trying to clarify.

Yes, whichever usb port your system has attached to the Rev2, of course. They're all ports, whether USB or DIN or whatever, you know. In MIDI parlance, the input or output endpoint across which the 16 channels are conceptualized is a "port". So you need to make sure that whatever software is actually generating the CCs for bank select is spitting them out the right port, regardless of the port's physical nature.

Actually, I stand corrected about previously: I was able to make it work with MIDI Param Rcv on NRPN too - so you may not be SOL. What firmware version are you running? I'm on 1.1.5.9, the latest I'm aware of.

For instance, to make this work in Ableton Live, I create a MIDI track, set the output of the track to the MIDI port "Rev2" (which is what the Rev2 looks like on USB on a Mac), set the channel of the track to 13, which is the MIDI channel of my Rev2, and create a clip on the track with "Sub" (the sub-bank value) set to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8. Other values will be ignored. Bank is left on ---, but you might be able to use the lowest value (0 is actually sent, whether your DAW displays 0 or 1 is up to the DAW) as well. Upon playing the track, when the playhead enters the clip, the Rev2 updates the bank value to the indicated bank, and all is well. In Ableton, for this to work, I believe the Rev2 object MIDI output port settings must have "Track" enabled (in Ableton's preferences), but I did this once and haven't touched it since. I can't help you with any other DAW or OS.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Trying to transmit Bank changes to Rev 2 via NI S88mk2
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2021, 12:07:03 PM »


Yes, whichever usb port your system has attached to the Rev2, of course. They're all ports, whether USB or DIN or whatever, you know. In MIDI parlance, the input or output endpoint across which the 16 channels are conceptualized is a "port". So you need to make sure that whatever software is actually generating the CCs for bank select is spitting them out the right port, regardless of the port's physical nature.

Actually, I stand corrected about previously: I was able to make it work with MIDI Param Rcv on NRPN too - so you may not be SOL. What firmware version are you running? I'm on 1.1.5.9, the latest I'm aware of.

For instance, to make this work in Ableton Live, I create a MIDI track, set the output of the track to the MIDI port "Rev2" (which is what the Rev2 looks like on USB on a Mac), set the channel of the track to 13, which is the MIDI channel of my Rev2, and create a clip on the track with "Sub" (the sub-bank value) set to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8. Other values will be ignored. Bank is left on ---, but you might be able to use the lowest value (0 is actually sent, whether your DAW displays 0 or 1 is up to the DAW) as well. Upon playing the track, when the playhead enters the clip, the Rev2 updates the bank value to the indicated bank, and all is well. In Ableton, for this to work, I believe the Rev2 object MIDI output port settings must have "Track" enabled (in Ableton's preferences), but I did this once and haven't touched it since. I can't help you with any other DAW or OS.

I grok the whole "port" thing. I was just trying to make certain that I wasn't missing some arcane bit of terminology. And I'm well aware of how the program/bank section works in Ableton. Getting to work within a clip is easy. What I've been trying to do is be able to surf through all the programs and banks on all of my external desktop synths (Rev 2, Peak, Virus Ti2) from a central controller, my S88mk2. I've spent my life at a keyboard, one hand on the keys, and the other (usually 6-12 inches away) on a knob/dial/button scrolling through patches.

With all these desktops in different locations, and some being further out of reach than others, I've been trying to be able to control that surfing with the assignable MIDI knobs on the S88. Seems simple enough, right? Not really. Patch changes, once ordained, are just numbers, and once you make sure you're assignments are correct (is 0 really 0, or is it 1?) you're good. Bank change commands vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and involve an MSB, LSB, and then the bank number/letter. Which is not info that can be sent as CC data from a dial.

So, it became apparent to me, while scouring the internet for answers, that this was a REALLY common problem. So, I thought it would be easy enough to create a Max device that would interpret my CC info into bank change info and then I could MIDI map it to the CC knobs. But first, a Max for Live search to see if anyone else had been down this road before me.

And, of course, they had. My first MFL search turned up exactly what I needed on the first try. A little MFL device that had two knobs: one for program changes and one for bank select.

Downloaded and installed one of those before each external instrument plugin in, MIDI mapped them to the knobs I wanted, and then opened Komplete Kontrol and tailored each of the knobs bank change behavior to match its corresponding synth. Virus=30 banks, Rev 2=8 banks, Peak=4 banks. That made the knobs behave in a smoother manner so you weren't flying by all your banks with a tiny turn of the knob.

Make that a template and VOILA! Every time I open a new Live session, it's done. And I can sit there and scroll to my hearts content without being stretched out like I'm in a game of twister, which makes you not even want to fuck with it.

So, VICTORY! And thank you so much for all your help along the way. Tedious, I know.