Minimoog Model D

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2016, 06:04:44 AM »
I've definitely got a soft spot for vintage string machines / electronic organs, though this may be due to the fact that I wasn't gigging during the 1970s.  :D

Thing is, like a real piano or organ, the sum of their parts never exceeds the pitches that are present, unlike a synthesized emulation which might double up voices where they could never possibly co-exist. These therefore sit much better in a mix than their synthesized counterparts.

In the same way, a monosynth emulates the constraints of a solo instrument, where individual notes are meaningful, rather than the handful that one can execute on an organ / piano / string machine, etc.

Of course, I grew up in an era where Japanese analog polysynths were the rage; anything that was monophonic, paraphonic or divide-down was poo-pooed as cheap and nasty (they may very well have been); it took me a very long time to understand the musical or textural cleverness inherent in some of these old-school approaches.

Of the two links that Sacred Synthesis posted, each represents a different perspective on the monosynth that many of us microprocessor / FPGA / DSP kids may never have considered:
  • live monophonic voice in-the-round, so to speak, using delay as a means to stagger melodic lines in time
  • multitracked mono synth with effects

So that is why I believe that these vintage monosynth designs have a certain appeal to those who never had to grow up with their constraints.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 06:18:51 AM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2016, 07:33:52 AM »
Yes, these vintage instruments may appeal to those who didn't use them in their day nor listened to them for endless hours when young.  To the newcomers, they may seem new, interesting, and esoteric.  Plus, the re-issues will have components that are substantially improved over the originals.

The interesting question is: Can a musician make fresh new music with these re-issued instruments that is free and independent of the past?  Can he or she break with the past, or will new compositions made with these vintage instruments always appear as nods to another era?  I have my doubts.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 09:14:31 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2016, 10:53:07 AM »
The interesting question is: Can a musician make fresh new music with these re-issued instruments that is free and independent of the past?  Can he or she break with the past, or will new compositions made with these vintage instruments always appear as nods to another era?  I have my doubts.

Generally, I'd say yes. But it takes some active forgetting about the determining past.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2016, 02:48:36 PM »
I think the best chance is when the instruments are used individually.  As a combination, they tend to take on that 1980's progressive rock sound, whether one wants it or not.  Here are a few beautiful examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ__xHVDOuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj9ODNkJmIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLTk5iGu8Q
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 03:03:22 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2016, 03:06:16 PM »
Paul, I'll give you a Model D, a B-3, a Mellotron, and an RMI.  Now try not to sound like a 1980 progressive rocker.  I'd say it would require the awkward avoidance of the sounds and techniques that are the very strengths of these instruments.

Oh, I'd totally be in for that challenge, and I believe it can be avoided as long as one follows the rules.

By the way, have we swopped opinions on this?

About non-traditional instruments being exposed more to fashions?

I think the best chance is when the instruments are used individually.  As a combination, they tend to take on that 1980's progressive rock sound, whether one wants it or not.  Here are a couple of beautiful examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ__xHVDOuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj9ODNkJmIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLTk5iGu8Q

Sure, that works. But even in conjunction one could step out of genre specific associations.

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2016, 08:43:30 PM »
I think the best chance is when the instruments are used individually.  As a combination, they tend to take on that 1980's progressive rock sound, whether one wants it or not.  Here are a few beautiful examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ__xHVDOuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj9ODNkJmIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLTk5iGu8Q

#2 (Yamaha CP-80B) and #3 (Clavinet) definitely have a vibe about them, but not as negative as, say, a Leslie-less Hammond or a Rhodes piano bass, neither of which age gracefully. The RMI piano (#1) screams "department store", or better yet, destined for the corner at the local used music store for a generation or three....

In fact, there's definitely a Roxy Music-esque quality to both #2 and #3 that still sounds quite interesting (to me, at least). I enjoyed playing a CP-70B, and might eventually end up with one at the right price. There are plenty of 80s drum machines and factory patches that bear a greater proportion of suckage.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 08:50:52 PM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2016, 09:45:22 PM »
It seems like a Minimoog-like synth (with through-hole parts) could actually be made for less, i.e. in this case roughly $1,444: http://synthrestore.co.uk/ar57.html

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2016, 11:17:02 PM »
These are two Minimoog recordings that strike me as sonically distinctive and musically impressive.  The second shows the classic "Minimoog sound" at its best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JN2dOM47F4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9SdqIqgskI

Again about the really moving Józef Skrzek piece: I think it shows one of the most beautiful sides of the Minimoog. This simple lead captures a great tone and thickness. The Space Echo of course adds the icing on the cake. Looks like you have a musical cousin in Poland, Sacred Synthesis.  ;)

Btw, he has quite a history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Skrzek
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 11:19:46 PM by Paul Dither »

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2016, 05:34:06 AM »
Józef Skrzek is a good example of a musician who feels the Minimoog does not age and get outdated, that what it does, it does so well that it cannot become obsolete.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 07:20:49 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2016, 06:00:15 AM »
The RMI piano (#1) screams "department store", or better yet, destined for the corner at the local used music store for a generation or three....

I sort of agree.  I've never heard an RMI piece or part that I especially liked, and it does have that old Casio timbre, as well as the look of a 1970's household appliance.  But the little piece played by the young lady above was the nicest thing I've ever heard done with an RMI, and I somewhat took to liking it.  If the sustained organ tone were removed and only the harpsichord stop used, it would have sounded better, less cheap.  I could enjoy quite a bit of similar classical music performed with it.  Harpsichord-type tones have always been among my favorites. 

Anyway, I've gotten us off track here.  The thread is supposed to be about the Minimoog re-issue, rather than vintage instruments in general.  My fault.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 06:54:36 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2016, 02:19:55 PM »
This thread needs this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL_N3A5gVhQ

Jason

  • **
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    • Bandmix
Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2016, 06:15:22 AM »
This thread needs this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL_N3A5gVhQ

I thought that was Hilarious. Reading some of the comments, people clearly thought that it was actually mint and in perfect working order... so there was a lot of hate. The best Christmas gift I ever received was a DX7 around 1985. They said I turned white... (I'm the middle of five children, so gifts like that were definitely not the norm.) I got an incredible amount of use out of it and loved it like no other possession for many years. But as a long-time keyboardist and guitarist, who scratches his head with incredulity and confusion at the vintage movement, this really tickled me this morning.

Getting back to the MiniMoog D: It would seem that there is agreement that nothing sounds like a Model D... and yet, many don't like the sound... or at least, no longer like the sound. I am surprised at all the contempt held among keyboardists for progressive music. To anyone who has followed the link to my bandmix page, I am obviously on the other side. Of the four covers that I currently have loaded there, three are by Keith Emerson and one is by Rick Wakeman. (Although only one has a Moog sound on it.) Btw, my "live in the basement" version of Hoedown is the only time I've ever used the pedals on my Hammond, which turned out to be quite fun to learn.

I loved progressive music in high school, and I love it still. When I try to learn anything by Emerson, I am amazed at how difficult it turns out to be. (In contrast, Wakeman is often easier than it sounds... though rarely easy.) After struggling to learn something by Emerson and then finally getting it down, I am also surprised at how quickly it fades if I don't revisit it. How keyboard players can turn their noses up at brilliant work like Tarkus, Karn Evil 9, or Pirates is beyond me. But again, the brilliance seems much more apparent after attempting to learn to play such work. Maybe I'm a little defensive of Emerson in particular because I'm still mourning his death.

Did familiarity breed the contempt? I certainly don't spend much time listening to the old progressive classics. If I did, I would get tired of them too. But for those who used to like this style of music, there are many modern musicians turning out wonderful new work: Transatlantic, Neal Morse, Karmakanic, The Flower Kings, Kerry Livgren, Van Der Graaf Generator, Riverside, I.Q., etc... I still find this music more exciting than just about anything else, and here we still hear Hammonds, Mellotron (samples!), and blessed MiniMoogs.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2016, 11:11:42 AM »
I don't think there has been much criticism on this thread of progressive rock.  It's just been admitted several times that certain vintage instruments will inevitably associate one's sound with that musical style, and some of us don't want that association.  I don't think that's a harsh criticism; it's an acknowledgment that people and life move on to other things, including other styles of music.

This thread takes the Minimoog Model D as a starting point and then considers the various meanings of the re-issues phenomenon.  I personally find it interesting and in some ways amusing  I share some of the attitudes, but not all.  For example, I share the view that finds constant and excessive complexity wearisome.  A Prophet 12 is great, but at other times it's refreshing to turn to a simple bare-bones non-programmable analog synthesizer - be it monophonic or polyphonic.  Hence, I can appreciate the Minimoog re-issue, and it is tempting.  But I'm also wary of thinking the solution to an abundance of complexity is in going back to the simplicity of 70's and 80's instruments. 

So, the discussion here is mostly about instruments and their associations, and in this case, whether or not the Minimoog points right back to progressive rock.  I think is does, but the tie is not unbreakable.  The question is, will those who are willing to spend $3,500 for this instrument make new music with it, or will they lead a revival?  The posts I've read on various forums more often suggest the latter.  There's an excitement about having back again an important piece of the past. 

If there's one effect of the re-issue phenomenon that I don't like, it's the reduction in the number of new monophonic analog synthesizers.  I would love if there were many full-sized programmable mono synths from which to choose, but there aren't.  Instead, there are a few, and a number of these are re-issues.  I would be thrilled to see DSI produce a mono version of the Prophet-6 with the same keyboard size.  Or any of the other companies, if they would produce a big bona fide analog mono synth.  Of course, the Arturia Matrixbrute and Vermona 14 are still forthcoming, but still, the number is small.  I would have preferred if the main companies had put their research and development into brilliant new designs with results that could be used for all styles, without sounding too much like the past.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 12:36:00 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2016, 12:25:01 PM »
Well, particularly the Minimoog has been used all along the board. From Prog Rock, Rock, and electronic music productions to Hip Hop, R'n'B, Funk, Reggae, and Trip Hop. So there's not really the one genre for the Minimoog. The rest pretty much depends on the category of sounds. A Minimoog used for subtle bass purposes, for example, will most likely become less of a cliché than a Minimoog used for flashy synth solos - just by nature of what stands out more in a mix or rather composition.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2016, 01:02:39 PM »
It's true that the Minimoog has been used in all contemporary styles of music, but this was often in a supplementary or supportive way - perhaps for bass or a little melody.  But progressive rock, because of its emphasis on instrumental music and virtuosic soloing, put the Minimoog in the foreground, loud and clear.  I think that's a main place it gained its name and recognizable sound.   So, I do think the Minimoog sound especially belongs to progressive rock.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 01:55:53 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2016, 01:15:14 PM »
It's true that the Minimoog has been used in all contemporary styles of music, but this was often in a supplementary or supportive way - perhaps for bass or a little melody.  But progressive rock, because of its emphasis on instrumental music and virtuosic soloing, put the Minimoog in the foreground, loud and clear.  So, I do think the Minimoog sound especially belongs to progressive rock.

I terms of virtuosic soloing, yes. But all in all, I think that the players not being in any prog rock outfit outnumber the former. I mean, how many acutal prog rock bands were there that shaped that particular notion of the Minimoog in action? - ELP, Yes, ELO, Rush, and now I'm already starting to struggle to name popular prog rock bands that actually used a Model D.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 03:35:14 PM by Paul Dither »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2016, 07:22:36 PM »
I would be thrilled to see DSI produce a mono version of the Prophet-6 with the same keyboard size.

Yes, yes, yes. Four octaves* is plenty for a single-voice instrument, and while the Pro-2 has the right stuff in terms of filters and connectivity, there may exist an argument for a Curtis-filter based monosynth with real VCOs, rich modulation capabilities, and decent-quality effects, a sort of yang to the Pro-2's yin.

(And imagine what it would be like to have audio-rate mod capabilities to line up with the DSM stuff....)

* - four octaves certainly gets us past the Sequential Pro-One comparisons, which I've had a bug for lately....
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 07:24:57 PM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2016, 08:47:21 PM »
This is the instrument I've been hoping for from DSI for years now, since just before the Mopho Keyboard appeared.  Since then I've been posting about this.  With the Prophet-6 now in existence, it should be a cinch to produce.  (Just add a dedicated vibrato LFO!)  But I don't get any sense from DSI that they're inclined to produce such a mono synth.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 08:53:30 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2016, 09:25:54 PM »
I would be thrilled to see DSI produce a mono version of the Prophet-6 with the same keyboard size.

Yes, yes, yes. Four octaves* is plenty for a single-voice instrument, and while the Pro-2 has the right stuff in terms of filters and connectivity, there may exist an argument for a Curtis-filter based monosynth with real VCOs, rich modulation capabilities, and decent-quality effects, a sort of yang to the Pro-2's yin.

(And imagine what it would be like to have audio-rate mod capabilities to line up with the DSM stuff....)

* - four octaves certainly gets us past the Sequential Pro-One comparisons, which I've had a bug for lately....

This is the instrument I've been hoping for from DSI for years now, since just before the Mopho Keyboard appeared.  Since then I've been posting about this.  With the Prophet-6 now in existence, it should be a cinch to produce.  (Just add a dedicated vibrato LFO!)  But I don't get any sense from DSI that they're inclined to produce such a mono synth.

I'm not entirely sure whether this is a case of missing the forest for the trees, but that mono synth (minus the extra LFO) is already included in the Prophet-6. I mean you basically only need to activate and define the Unison mode.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2016, 09:35:56 PM »
Well, obviously I would want a mono synth at a mono synth price.  Sure, I could use a Prophet-6 in both modes, but I don't need another poly synth.  I'd rather get only a mono version and pay only for a mono version.  This would also be an improvement in DSI's current range of instrument prices, which is certainly on the high side.  It would be nice to a have a VCA mono synth around the $1,500 or so mark.

The same issue existed with the Prophet '08.  Sure, you could use a P'08 as a mono synth.   Nevertheless, DSI saw fit to produce a Mopho Keyboard and a Mopho SE.  I'm thinking along the very same lines regarding the Prophet-6.  And besides, the previously named mono synths have been discontinued.  Yes, there are still the Mopho x4 (for now) and the Pro 2, but those are beasts of another sort. 

« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 09:54:38 PM by Sacred Synthesis »