Minimoog Model D

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #240 on: June 29, 2017, 04:06:54 AM »
It's interesting to look back at the beginning of this thread. It seems that we were mostly skeptical based on features and price and the unfavorable ratio thereof…

I can relate to that. It simply took a hands-on experience with the new Minimoog to have my intial reservations totally annihilated. Feature-wise, it is a simple synth, yes. It's not exciting in terms of its mod matrix and all that. By now, it's even one of the most conservative (I use this term neutrally) synth designs out there, as it served as the blueprint for all hardwired synths that follow the scheme of subtractive synthesis.

But what was striking for me is that although everyone knows its sound and although certain cliché sounds have been played to death, it is still inviting because the core sound is so good that one can get lost in playing around with it immediately. In that sense it feels like any other classic instrument, like a piano, a guitar, a violin, drums, or even a tuba, which are still being played albeit they sound as they do.

And then there are all the factors which are often not considered, especially in the Behringer or Roland discussions. The Minimoog is not only its iconic sound. It's that and the spacious front panel, the chassis, 44 keys, mod and pitch wheels, and the fact that you can set up the panel at almost any angle you like. From today's perspective, it's a really massive synth in terms of physical proportions. But that's exactly what makes it a Minimoog too.

And finally there's the whole build quality aspect. Like one synth cave inhabitor said to me at Superbooth: "It just looks and feels like it's been build and assembled by people who really enjoy what they're doing."

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #241 on: June 29, 2017, 09:26:16 AM »
The parts problem stems from the fact (I think) that Moog decided to create and exact 1-for-1 replica of the original, there must be one part somewhere that is a bottle neck and kills off the entire production run (like the bucket delay chips for the MF104.

I own a Minimoog re-issue and I am extremely happy with it. Simple lay out, fantastic build quality, and beautiful sound. Oscillators and filters sound just very pure and direct (better than DSI, sorry). But it is priced as a collector's item. Well worth it, and likely to increase in value over time. But if your budget is tight, this is not the best musical return per $.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #242 on: June 29, 2017, 01:10:26 PM »
But what was striking for me is that although everyone knows its sound and although certain cliché sounds have been played to death, it is still inviting because the core sound is so good that one can get lost in playing around with it immediately. In that sense it feels like any other classic instrument, like a piano, a guitar, a violin, drums, or even a tuba, which are still being played albeit they sound as they do.

And then there are all the factors which are often not considered, especially in the Behringer or Roland discussions. The Minimoog is not only its iconic sound. It's that and the spacious front panel, the chassis, 44 keys, mod and pitch wheels, and the fact that you can set up the panel at almost any angle you like. From today's perspective, it's a really massive synth in terms of physical proportions. But that's exactly what makes it a Minimoog too.

And finally there's the whole build quality aspect. Like one synth cave inhabitor said to me at Superbooth: "It just looks and feels like it's been build and assembled by people who really enjoy what they're doing."

That was a fine eulogy to the Model D, Paul.  I'm glad you mentioned the adjustable panel, because it's one of my favorite features.

I think one of the indicators that the Minimoog is a classic - and that is such an understatement - is that a fair number of synthesists are able to play it all by itself and extract exceptional sounds and music, with only the help of reverb and delay.  In other words, there are Minimoog "masters" who can tweak it's panel in brilliant ways and sometimes with lightening speed, even as they play the keyboard, all to brilliant effect.  I love the watch this.  Here are a few examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxUZ4YPXTUQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOUkQyoFZz8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JN2dOM47F4






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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #243 on: June 29, 2017, 06:06:02 PM »
But it is priced as a collector's item. Well worth it, and likely to increase in value over time.

Yeah, definitely. Surprisingly, the price of used Voyagers on ebay has increased significantly (by $300 or so USD) over the past year, even with the Model D reissue. And I could sell my Little Phatty Stage II with CV Outs for a couple hundred more than I bought it for (on an admittedly absurd new price). And these aren't even the collector's items. So whatever you think of the stuff, you'll never lose your shirt on the investment. In contrast, you can pick up a Korg MS-20 Mini for a song.
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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #244 on: June 30, 2017, 03:41:41 AM »
But what was striking for me is that although everyone knows its sound and although certain cliché sounds have been played to death, it is still inviting because the core sound is so good that one can get lost in playing around with it immediately. In that sense it feels like any other classic instrument, like a piano, a guitar, a violin, drums, or even a tuba, which are still being played albeit they sound as they do.

And then there are all the factors which are often not considered, especially in the Behringer or Roland discussions. The Minimoog is not only its iconic sound. It's that and the spacious front panel, the chassis, 44 keys, mod and pitch wheels, and the fact that you can set up the panel at almost any angle you like. From today's perspective, it's a really massive synth in terms of physical proportions. But that's exactly what makes it a Minimoog too.

And finally there's the whole build quality aspect. Like one synth cave inhabitor said to me at Superbooth: "It just looks and feels like it's been build and assembled by people who really enjoy what they're doing."

That was a fine eulogy to the Model D, Paul.  I'm glad you mentioned the adjustable panel, because it's one of my favorite features.

I think one of the indicators that the Minimoog is a classic - and that is such an understatement - is that a fair number of synthesists are able to play it all by itself and extract exceptional sounds and music, with only the help of reverb and delay.  In other words, there are Minimoog "masters" who can tweak it's panel in brilliant ways and sometimes with lightening speed, even as they play the keyboard, all to brilliant effect.  I love the watch this.  Here are a few examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxUZ4YPXTUQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOUkQyoFZz8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JN2dOM47F4

Amazing videos. 50% is Moog skill, but the other 50% is delay effect skill though :-)

LoboLives

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #245 on: June 30, 2017, 03:54:06 AM »
Honestly, while it was nice for Moog to take a trip down memory lane...maybe it's time for them for them to move on and just bring out something new. Even if it's something as simple as an analog vocoder or as big as a 4 voice polyphonic phatty...it's time for Moog to step up their game.

Personally speaking, for the price of the Model D...it's lack of features is really off putting. At least it included midi....can you imagine if it didn't? The price is similar to the Oberheim Two Voice Pro....but even Tom realized he had to upgrade the old beast...and incorporated probably the best on board analog sequencer ever into the synth plus a plethora of patch points on top and you can save the sequences to flash memory....plus you get two synth engines on board.....the Model D has none of that (save for the patch points).

I think the Sub 37 has surpassed the Model D in terms of practicality, features and bang for the buck. Moog need to keep going down that path and not get sucked into nostalgia. Analog synthesis itself is nostalgic and old school, there's no need to keep taking steps backwards simply "because in the 70s".

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #246 on: June 30, 2017, 10:49:32 AM »
Something new!

I think whenever they try that they get bitten in the arse. I have a Moog Guitar and an MP201 that prove that to me.

Actually the Murf pedal was pretty good, are they still in production?

LoboLives

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #247 on: June 30, 2017, 01:37:31 PM »
Something new!

I think whenever they try that they get bitten in the arse. I have a Moog Guitar and an MP201 that prove that to me.

Actually the Murf pedal was pretty good, are they still in production?

I thought the Moog guitar was a neat idea. I mean they have to be smart about it but a Polyphonic Moog is going to sell much better than a Moog Guitar...I think even a Moog analog vocoder would as well.

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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #248 on: June 30, 2017, 04:08:21 PM »
I ageee that new tech paths are good. I'm also grateful that the maker-user complex revisits some solid old ways.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #249 on: June 30, 2017, 04:15:11 PM »
The Moog Subsequent 37 is itself a limited production-run instrument, so that's yet another instrument that will soon disappear from the Moog line-up.  What then?  Will the old Sub 37 (which I think is a superb synthesizer, but too small) be updated to include the new Subsequent's features?  I hope Moog expands a bit on this excellent instrument. 

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #250 on: June 30, 2017, 04:28:07 PM »
The Moog Subsequent 37 is itself a limited production-run instrument, so that's yet another instrument that will soon disappear from the Moog line-up.  What then?  Will the old Sub 37 (which I think is a superb synthesizer, but too small) be updated to include the new Subsequent's features?  I hope Moog expands a bit on this excellent instrument.

A seller told me that Moog is now going to ship the Subsequent 37 instead of the Sub 37. I have not yet heard an official statement on that, but that would mean that there would be no return to the Sub 37, which was supposed to be limited too. So it could very well be that all that'll be left of the "Phatty" line after the Subsequent production stops is the Sub Phatty. That would ultimately leave two open spots.

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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #251 on: June 30, 2017, 05:10:27 PM »
It's my sense that at some point the current Moog will make a polyphonic. But, that's because I'm poly-centric.  ... It surely is a tight-rope to find a reasonably feasible approach.
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Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #252 on: June 30, 2017, 05:43:17 PM »
I'll take this moment to thank you guys for fostering a no-frills, healthy discussion atmosphere. There's good substance here. And I appreciate what's not here.

Ditto.  This is an excellent forum for all sorts of reasons.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #253 on: June 30, 2017, 05:50:10 PM »
A seller told me that Moog is now going to ship the Subsequent 37 instead of the Sub 37. I have not yet heard an official statement on that, but that would mean that there would be no return to the Sub 37, which was supposed to be limited too. So it could very well be that all that'll be left of the "Phatty" line after the Subsequent production stops is the Sub Phatty. That would ultimately leave two open spots.

So if you order a Sub 37, a Subsequent 37 arrives instead?  Surely there will be an announcement first.  It does make sense to move on to the improved instrument, rather than return to the inferior one.  But if the Subsequent is itself only a limited-edition, then what?  Is it only a stepping stone to yet another instrument?  Strange.

The other question is, Will Moog offer another 44-key 3-oscillator synthesizer, or not?  Is the Voyager gone forever, or will it appear in another form?  Something has to fill that all-important spot.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 06:03:49 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #254 on: June 30, 2017, 06:52:27 PM »
A seller told me that Moog is now going to ship the Subsequent 37 instead of the Sub 37.

So if you order a Sub 37, a Subsequent 37 arrives instead?

I took this to mean that the Subsequent 37 replaces the Sub 37 in the lineup, once Sub 37s are sold through. If you order a Sub 37, I'm sure that's what you'll get, since Subsequent 37s are a bit pricier.

Quote
It does make sense to move on to the improved instrument, rather than return to the inferior one.  But if the Subsequent is itself only a limited-edition, then what?  Is it only a stepping stone to yet another instrument?  Strange.

I think it's just a standard Moog marketing thing now. Everything's a Limited Edition. The 50th Anniversary Voyager, the white Little Phatty, the Model 15, the Sub 37 Tribute Edition. Moog recognizes that musicians tend to over-estimate the size of the market, so they can create an aura of exclusivity and scarcity. In reality, everyone who puts up the money can have one*, and the Subsequent 37 is no more "limited" than, say, the Prophet 6.

* For example, only 150 Model 15s were made. But if I had $10,000 to spend on a synth, and Buchla wasn't around, I could totally buy one right now.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 06:55:14 PM by chysn »
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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #255 on: June 30, 2017, 07:16:47 PM »
A seller told me that Moog is now going to ship the Subsequent 37 instead of the Sub 37.

So if you order a Sub 37, a Subsequent 37 arrives instead?

I took this to mean that the Subsequent 37 replaces the Sub 37 in the lineup, once Sub 37s are sold through. If you order a Sub 37, I'm sure that's what you'll get, since Subsequent 37s are a bit pricier.

Right.  I presumed the same.  I was being a bit ridiculous because I'm scratching my head over Moog in general.  I don't get their strategy.  Your explanation could be the case, but it seems like an unnecessarily hectic approach to selling synthesizers.  So many announcements.  It's an odd way to generate interest because it makes them look erratic, almost capricious.  And it certainly discourages those of us who have to plan and finance new instrument purchase long-term. 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 07:20:36 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #256 on: July 01, 2017, 03:55:06 AM »
A seller told me that Moog is now going to ship the Subsequent 37 instead of the Sub 37. I have not yet heard an official statement on that, but that would mean that there would be no return to the Sub 37, which was supposed to be limited too. So it could very well be that all that'll be left of the "Phatty" line after the Subsequent production stops is the Sub Phatty. That would ultimately leave two open spots.

So if you order a Sub 37, a Subsequent 37 arrives instead?  Surely there will be an announcement first.  It does make sense to move on to the improved instrument, rather than return to the inferior one.  But if the Subsequent is itself only a limited-edition, then what?  Is it only a stepping stone to yet another instrument?  Strange.

Haha, no. If a Sub 37 is still in stock you'll get it. It is my understanding, though, that the name "Subsequent" is meant quite literally in that the Subsequent 37 is meant to replace the Sub 37. So the info was for the retailers. Kind of like: If you're planning on ordering more Sub 37s for your stock, keep in mind that we will replace it with the Subsequent 37 from now on. And yes, the Subsequent 37 was introduced as being limited as well. But as roughly 10,000 Sub 37s have been produced, the word "limited" might be stretched as well in this case, depending on the actual demand. (I think Moog didn't expect the Sub 37 to be as successful as it turned out to be, just as they didn't predict the Minimoog to sell this quickly.)

From a resource side it makes sense to keep certain instruments limited though. With that many Sub 37s being built and Minimoogs flying off the shelves, my guess would be that a large portion of Moog's manufacturing resources were tied to the production of these two instruments for a while, particularly over the past 12 months, where they produced two bestsellers in parallel.

In that sense, Moog would arrive at a clean slate after the production of the Subsequent 37 ends at some point in the future in conjunction with the now stopped production of the Minimoog. It would just free lots of resources for whatever they plan to do next. I still highly doubt that it would be a poly synth. I can even recall Amos saying "never" at some point. So my guess would be another mono flagship synth (inspired by the Voyager and Minimoog legacy, but based on parts that will be available in the foreseeable future) and maybe a couple of rather unexpected things that could also happen in the digital/app domain. And there also seems to be some demand for a drum machine by Moog.

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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #257 on: July 01, 2017, 07:16:11 AM »
Oh, yeah, a drum machine would be interesting.

I'm sure that there are also those who'd love to see them do individual VCF, VCO, VCA modules in eurorack. Moog might be too big for eurorack, but a complete euro voice would excite at least and many people as it bores.
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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #258 on: July 01, 2017, 07:19:41 AM »
The Moog Subsequent 37 is itself a limited production-run instrument, so that's yet another instrument that will soon disappear from the Moog line-up.  What then?  Will the old Sub 37 (which I think is a superb synthesizer, but too small) be updated to include the new Subsequent's features?  I hope Moog expands a bit on this excellent instrument.
I could be wrong, but I don't see a lot of excitement for the Sub37 after the Subsequent 37 is removed from the market... because from here here on out, everyone will look at the Sub37 and think "I just wish it had....."
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Re: Minimoog Model D
« Reply #259 on: July 01, 2017, 11:13:11 AM »
The Moog Subsequent 37 is itself a limited production-run instrument, so that's yet another instrument that will soon disappear from the Moog line-up.  What then?  Will the old Sub 37 (which I think is a superb synthesizer, but too small) be updated to include the new Subsequent's features?  I hope Moog expands a bit on this excellent instrument.
I could be wrong, but I don't see a lot of excitement for the Sub37 after the Subsequent 37 is removed from the market... because from here here on out, everyone will look at the Sub37 and think "I just wish it had....."

That always depends on the use case. Not everybody needs CV outs. Moog knew this and had a huge success with it. There are still plenty of players who just wanna use an analog synth and don't care about the interaction with modular equipment or other voltage controllable equipment. That's exactly the audience Moog had in mind: players, not tinkerers or geeks.

And from what I've heard so far, the sonic differences between the Sub 37 and the Subsequent 37 seem to be marginal, existing mostly in the paraphonic mode due to more headroom on the later model.

In general, there can always be a newer, somehow improved, or whatever version of a particular instrument which doesn't necessarily mean that the older version becomes not desired anymore or that it will start to ruin people's life. Following that logic, most people would have to swap their whole gear collection with newer stuff every 2 or 3 years, which is not really something the average user can afford or anything that makes the most practical sense. And I doubt, for example, that most people started to despise their Prophet '08 when the REV2 was announced.

Being one of the global monosynth bestsellers of the past 3 years, the Sub 37 proved to be a highly successful project, which is already regarded as a modern classic. So Moog obviously didn't do too much wrong here. That doesn't mean that it's for everyone, but I highly doubt that roughly 10,000 people started to cry when the Subsequent 37 was announced. If people were able to use it to their advantage until today, they will still be able to do so in the upcoming years.