MPE / Polyphonic Aftertouch support?

[napje]

The Prophet-6 and OB-6 support polyphonic aftertouch over MIDI, it seems the Prophet-5/10 do not (based on the manual, my unit is expected to arrive tomorrow so couldn't test yet). The P6 and OB6 also recently got MPE support with an update. With an Osmose in preorder I'm quite interested in this.

Will these features be brought to the Prophet-5/10 with an update as well or does the architecture not allow it?


-edit- Oh, and first post: hi! I've been long time DSI/Sequential user, had the Evolver, Prophet '08, Mopho, Tetr4, Prophet-6 and OB-6 before

[dr.sax]

The prophet 5/10 does have polyphonic afterthought. It does work with my ensoniq vfx 👍🏻

[napje]

The prophet 5/10 does have polyphonic afterthought. It does work with my ensoniq vfx 👍🏻

Ah, that's excellent. I was bit confused as the manual stated monophonic (channel) aftertouch, but I presume they just refer to the keybed then. I've got the Ensoniq TS-10

[napje]

(MPE would still be a great addition tho )

[DavidB]

Hi all,
I'm David, new here, happy owner of a Prophet 10 Rev 4 and an original Pro-One.
Apologies if this has been covered (I did a forum search and couldn't find it as a topic) but would it be possible in the future to retrofit the new Prophets with a keyboard that supports polyphonic aftertouch? I find it cumbersome to control my Prophet 10 with a separate keyboard when I want to play with that amount of expression. Obviously an alternative would be to sell/trade in my P10 keyboard version for the desktop version, but if it's possible to swap out the keyboard and some components, that would be interesting to me.
Best,
David

[HockeBocke]

Hi all,
I'm David, new here, happy owner of a Prophet 10 Rev 4 and an original Pro-One.
Apologies if this has been covered (I did a forum search and couldn't find it as a topic) but would it be possible in the future to retrofit the new Prophets with a keyboard that supports polyphonic aftertouch? I find it cumbersome to control my Prophet 10 with a separate keyboard when I want to play with that amount of expression. Obviously an alternative would be to sell/trade in my P10 keyboard version for the desktop version, but if it's possible to swap out the keyboard and some components, that would be interesting to me.
Best,
David

Hi and welcome 

The Prophet-10 ( and 5 ) have polyphonic aftertouch .....
Or do you mean like having aftertouch modulation on a single note
while playing a non modulated chord with left hand ?   

Cheers !

[DavidB]

Hi all,
I'm David, new here, happy owner of a Prophet 10 Rev 4 and an original Pro-One.
Apologies if this has been covered (I did a forum search and couldn't find it as a topic) but would it be possible in the future to retrofit the new Prophets with a keyboard that supports polyphonic aftertouch? I find it cumbersome to control my Prophet 10 with a separate keyboard when I want to play with that amount of expression. Obviously an alternative would be to sell/trade in my P10 keyboard version for the desktop version, but if it's possible to swap out the keyboard and some components, that would be interesting to me.
Best,
David

Hi and welcome 

The Prophet-10 ( and 5 ) have polyphonic aftertouch .....
Or do you mean like having aftertouch modulation on a single note
while playing a non modulated chord with left hand ?   

Cheers !

Yes! This is exactly what I mean.

If I understand the definition correctly, the Prophet rev 4 keyboards support channel aftertouch, not polyphonic aftertouch. The synth itself supports polyphonic aftertouch, but you need to use external control to achieve it. Hence my observation that I can play exactly as you described when controlling the P10 with my Hyrdrasynth keyboard, but not using the P10's own keyboard.

Thanks!

[marzzz]

If I understand the definition correctly, the Prophet rev 4 keyboards support channel aftertouch, not polyphonic aftertouch. The synth itself supports polyphonic aftertouch, but you need to use external control to achieve it. Hence my observation that I can play exactly as you described when controlling the P10 with my Hydrasynth keyboard, but not using the P10's own keyboard.

That's precisely the reason I am waiting on the Desktop P10- I have an external keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch that I am looking forward to using with it.

[redonyellow]

The Prophet-10 ( and 5 ) have polyphonic aftertouch .....
Or do you mean like having aftertouch modulation on a single note
while playing a non modulated chord with left hand ?   

Cheers !

Prophet 5 does not have polyphonic aftertouch. I have one and tested it.

I'm not sure if you know what polyphonic after touch is.

Ex.
1. Set aftertouch to filter.
2. Press and hold five notes.
3. While holding the note, push one of the notes to trigger the aftertouch effect.

The result is the filter will open for ALL notes held.

If P10/5 were to have polyphonic aftertouch then, only the note with the aftertouch trigger would open the filter.

[Analog Prophet]

We’re talking about two different things here: Transmitted vs received channel messages. It’s not uncommon that received vs transmitted messages from/to a a synth differs.

- Channel Pressure (monophonic aftertouch): All voices response to one key pressed.

-  Polyphonic Key Pressure (polyphonic aftertouch): Individual response to different keys pressed. The transmitting keyboard must be able to transmit polyphonic aftertouch to get it work.

According to the MIDI implementation the P5/10 transmit Channel Pressure (monophonic aftertouch) but receive Channel Pressure (monophonic aftertouch) as well as Polyphonic Key Pressure (polyphonic aftertouch).

P5 MIDI implementation chart:
https://yo41t1y5gos9jw8f3lptw0xo-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Prophet-5-MIDI-Implementation-1.3.pdf

[dr.sax]

The Prophet-10 ( and 5 ) have polyphonic aftertouch .....
Or do you mean like having aftertouch modulation on a single note
while playing a non modulated chord with left hand ?   

Cheers !

Prophet 5 does not have polyphonic aftertouch. I have one and tested it.

I'm not sure if you know what polyphonic after touch is.

Ex.
1. Set aftertouch to filter.
2. Press and hold five notes.
3. While holding the note, push one of the notes to trigger the aftertouch effect.

The result is the filter will open for ALL notes held.

If P10/5 were to have polyphonic aftertouch then, only the note with the aftertouch trigger would open the filter.

As I posted above. It has PolyAT but only receives it. If you use a external keyboard that has PolyAT, as my Ensoniq VFX, only the filter opens for the note you press harder. The P5/10 keyboard by itself can't do this. It's only ChannelAT.

[redonyellow]

So P5/10 have polyAT but only if received from a different source other than the built-in keyboard...

Why do you think this is? is this a limitation of the keyboard design, or can this be updated to support it in the future?

[jok3r]

So P5/10 have polyAT but only if received from a different source other than the built-in keyboard...

Why do you think this is? is this a limitation of the keyboard design, or can this be updated to support it in the future?

It's because the built in Fatar keybed doesn't support it. So this can not be fixed by an update.

[Analog Prophet]

So P5/10 have polyAT but only if received from a different source other than the built-in keyboard...

Why do you think this is? is this a limitation of the keyboard design, or can this be updated to support it in the future?

I wouldn’t call it a limitation but a good quality standard keyboard. Most keyboard player I’ve heard rarely use AT at all.

There are external MIDI keyboards to connect if polyphonic AT is desired and one is willing to pay extra for that. Another way is to record voice by voice and have individual controllers for everything.

[g3o2]

polyAT is like adding a human “LFO” per voice as a mod source.

However, this kind of control is not a naturally acquired technique. It takes some training to wield it, in particular when using more than one finger per hand.

[Analog Prophet]

polyAT is like adding a human “LFO” per voice as a mod source.

However, this kind of control is not a naturally acquired technique. It takes some training to wield it, in particular when using more than one finger per hand.

The P5/10 rev 4 doesn’t have 5/10 LFOs required for that, just one global LFO. The P12 has 4 LFO per voice and the P3 one per voice. But again, one can record voice by voice to archive that and much more if desired.

[g3o2]

The P5/10 rev 4 doesn’t have 5/10 LFOs required for that, just one global LFO. The P12 has 4 LFO per voice and the P3 one per voice. But again, one can record voice by voice to archive that and much more if desired.

You don’t require any LFO for this, it is the player’s fingers which become the modulation source(s) via polyAT. In a manner of speaking, the player becomes the LFO. This way, you can save the actual LFO for other sound design purposes.

On a Linnstrument, switch from channel pressure to poly pressure. On the Prophet, set the filter as aftertouch destination. Prophet now accurately interprets the incoming polyAT messages. With one of your fingers, you can e.g. play a steady voice, while the other finger pulsates in whichever frequency you feel like. With a Linnstrument, given its light touch and the short travel of its surface, this takes some practice.

Having only filter as a polyAT destination seems a bit limited, but it is a great start. MPE, if it were implemented (no idea whether it would be even possible on Prophet), would add pitch and timbre as mod sources for each voice.

[Analog Prophet]

The P5/10 rev 4 doesn’t have 5/10 LFOs required for that, just one global LFO. The P12 has 4 LFO per voice and the P3 one per voice. But again, one can record voice by voice to archive that and much more if desired.

You don’t require any LFO for this, it is the player’s fingers which become the modulation source(s) via polyAT. In a manner of speaking, the player becomes the LFO. This way, you can save the actual LFO for other sound design purposes.

On a Linnstrument, switch from channel pressure to poly pressure. On the Prophet, set the filter as aftertouch destination. Prophet now accurately interprets the incoming polyAT messages. With one of your fingers, you can e.g. play a steady voice, while the other finger pulsates in whichever frequency you feel like. With a Linnstrument, given its light touch and the short travel of its surface, this takes some practice.

Having only filter as a polyAT destination seems a bit limited, but it is a great start. MPE, if it were implemented (no idea whether it would be even possible on Prophet), would add pitch and timbre as mod sources for each voice.

I understand what you are saying, a manual handmade modulation, but not an LFO with for instance square wave or reversed sawtooth wave.

[g3o2]

I understand what you are saying, a manual handmade modulation, but not an LFO with for instance square wave or reversed sawtooth wave.

Indeed, that’s why I put LFO in between “” in my first post ;-)