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OB-Xa

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2021, 09:03:06 AM »
It's called envy: anger at the good fortune of another person, together with the demand to have it for oneself. 

I know B's strategy is one that works, and always will, because we synthesists have such intense GAS.  But then quality goes out the door, and eventually is hardly even appreciated any longer. 

A few months ago, I watched a decent video of the B Odyssey.  I'm a long-time ARP enthusiast, and I love watching demonstrations of both their old instruments and the recent reissues.  Oh...the Odyssey...mmm.  Anyways,  I returned to the video a couple of weeks later, and in the comments section the owner rather bitterly revealed that, since he had made the video, the B Odyssey had broken down and needed all sorts of repairs.  Oh sure, it had been purchased brand new at a very modest price, he said, but it had proven to be a pain in the neck. 

There.  So much for allowing the young and the poor to own the classics.  In the end, they'll be burdened with numerous repairs until they find themselves poorer still and without the instrument they loved.  While they feel they've been served, they've only been taken advantage of by a shrewd opportunist.

I would agree that there's something both virtuous and noble about working hard to save up for something special, or at least, in making substantial personal sacrifice for it.  Whereas, having that special thing reduced to a mediocre state so that it can be easily afforded ultimately cheapens culture and kills human initiative.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 09:44:16 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
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LPF83

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2021, 09:21:44 AM »
Well said.  Sadly, many look at the situation merely as an opportunity to get instruments for less, and nothing else matters.  They get neat stuff, the neat stuff is inexpensive, and that's that.  Why should they give two hoots about all the righteous anger and moralizing if, in the end, a big beautiful brown box from the music store will be sitting on their front steps?

I think this comes from people's sense of entitlement. "They are bringing it to the masses instead of the horrible people with privileges!" which is such a bogus mindset. You don't have the right to have a specific synth you earn that right by working, saving up for it and buying it. You aren't owed anything. "Man I hate Sequential I can't afford one! I hate Moog I can't afford one!" well too bad so sad, there's plenty of other affordable gear on the market. It boggles my mind people think the Moog one should be $500 or something. Get bent! Nobody says this about Gibson or Fender, people just go out and get cheaper import guitars...why this sudden hate on for people who are fortunate to have the ability to own expensive equipment?

I have never once seen guys like Synthmania, Mr. Firechild, James Drone or whoever bash people for playing budget instruments so why is it acceptable that it's the other way around?

Where have you seen contempt for the buyers of discount gear?  I've never blamed those who buy discount gear, regardless of their reason for wanting it. 

When I was starting out with synths in the 80s, hardware purchases were daunting.  We didn't have the benefit of learning what we really wanted in terms of sound and functionality that is available today via free or cheap plugins, so every hardware purchase was a substantial risk, which meant that an instrument needed to be in the $300-800 range and usually purchased used before it made sense for me to consider buying.   So, I totally get that there is a market for discount gear for those dipping a toe in the hardware waters or simply still figuring out what they want in a setup, or folks simply not in a position to buy premium instruments.

My issue is with companies that seek to exploit that audience by selling them "look alike" products that are actually substandard reproductions and labeling them as "perfect replicas", repackaging what is essentially the same synth in a different cosmetic design.  Companies that are irreverent toward the true pioneers of the industry, and seem to care more about "teasing" their audience, exploiting social media, and being the inciter of marking reaction than actually making useful contributions to the music instrument landscape.
Prophet 10, Prophet 6, OB-6, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Moog SlimPhatty, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland SPD-30, Roland SPD-SX Special Edition, Roland KT-10, Maschine, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen + Octopre, Strymon Pedals, Cubase Pro 11.

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2021, 09:35:39 AM »
My issue is with companies that seek to exploit that audience by selling them "look alike" products that are actually substandard reproductions and labeling them as "perfect replicas", repackaging what is essentially the same synth in a different cosmetic design.  Companies that are irreverent toward the true pioneers of the industry, and seem to care more about "teasing" their audience, exploiting social media, and being the inciter of marking reaction than actually making useful contributions to the music instrument landscape.

Yes, this is the heart of the issue.  It's the cheapening of the classics so that everyone can feel they own one.
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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2021, 10:04:18 AM »
My issue is with companies that seek to exploit that audience by selling them "look alike" products that are actually substandard reproductions and labeling them as "perfect replicas", repackaging what is essentially the same synth in a different cosmetic design.  Companies that are irreverent toward the true pioneers of the industry, and seem to care more about "teasing" their audience, exploiting social media, and being the inciter of marking reaction than actually making useful contributions to the music instrument landscape.

Yes, this is the heart of the issue.  It's the cheapening of the classics so that everyone can feel they own one.

It's a tricky, sticky question for me, the B thing. I took offense at their going after Sequential peeps - with a lawsuit, nonetheless. I do feel a loyalty to Sequential... the Pro One was my first synth, and the Prophet 5 has been the love of my synth life. I've got other SCI, Sequential and DSI gear and I love it all. There's true Vibe coming from these creations and the people who work for Sequential always seem solid and respectful. Clearly, they love the work they do.

I bought the B-made VC340 not so long back. A string machine and vocoder in one was too hard to pass up. I've felt a bit creepy about it, and have been tempted to sell it, but I find myself using it too often! And now I see that B is looking to release the Solina. For me it's not about "feeling I could own one," it's about having a (small) version of the thing that makes THAT sound. I guess if I'm trying to make any point, it's just that things can be blurry, whether in black and white or in colour. My musical needs will always determine what gear I use/buy, but I'm certainly capable of feeling guilty or sheepish from time to time!

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2021, 01:48:08 PM »
For me it's not about "feeling I could own one," it's about having a (small) version of the thing that makes THAT sound. I guess if I'm trying to make any point, it's just that things can be blurry, whether in black and white or in colour. My musical needs will always determine what gear I use/buy, but I'm certainly capable of feeling guilty or sheepish from time to time!

I'm sorry, but this sounds an awful lot like "nostalgia trumps ethics" for you...

Consider this: the Solina sounded how it did because of technical and commercial limitations. People used it because it filled an economic and practical music production role - convincing enough strings that were affordable, didn't require a room full of people and even more expensive instruments, and could be easily transported. Literally any string substitute can take its place, because it itself was just a pastiche, a stand-in for real strings. If you're so into THAT sound, just dial up any old string patch on any half-decent synth and run it through an ensemble effect. You'll be closer to the spirit of the original than any clone of the original will be, and you won't need to vote with your dollars to support derivative, parasitic business models, either.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2021, 02:22:08 PM »
A decent modern synthesizer like the Rev2 can so surpass an old string machine that it isn't even a contest.  I loved those old stringers, but I've realized a Prophet '08/Rev2 offers a far superior sound and with many more variables, such as polyphony rather than paraphony, and a complete four-stage envelope.  But nostalgia is a stubborn emotion, and sometimes the appearance of an instrument matters as much as its sound.  It connects you with your past in strange sentimental ways.  I'm sure that's one of the reasons the whole old school synth revival has come about, and why the UB/OB-Xa issue excites such passion in people.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 02:25:21 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2021, 02:31:48 PM »
For me it's not about "feeling I could own one," it's about having a (small) version of the thing that makes THAT sound. I guess if I'm trying to make any point, it's just that things can be blurry, whether in black and white or in colour. My musical needs will always determine what gear I use/buy, but I'm certainly capable of feeling guilty or sheepish from time to time!

I'm sorry, but this sounds an awful lot like "nostalgia trumps ethics" for you...

Consider this: the Solina sounded how it did because of technical and commercial limitations. People used it because it filled an economic and practical music production role - convincing enough strings that were affordable, didn't require a room full of people and even more expensive instruments, and could be easily transported. Literally any string substitute can take its place, because it itself was just a pastiche, a stand-in for real strings. If you're so into THAT sound, just dial up any old string patch on any half-decent synth and run it through an ensemble effect. You'll be closer to the spirit of the original than any clone of the original will be, and you won't need to vote with your dollars to support derivative, parasitic business models, either.

Honestly, I posted this because I am indeed questioning my ethics here. I'm not wishing to defend anything other than the "things can be blurry" bit, cos that's how life works for me, a sometimes messy and inconsistent human.

As far as the Solina sound itself, versus dialing up any old string patch, well, sorta/almost. I did that this morning with the Prologue which, especially with a User created BBD effect, does a pretty good classic string machine sound. I've got a PolySix, which does, well, the classic PolySix string sound. I've got GForce's VSM, which I adore and use often. I'm not using string synths in a "trying to sound like real strings." I've got string players for that. Or decent sampled strings in Logic. The Solina sound is a particular fav of mine, and I'm admitting to being tempted by the impending re-creation of it by a company whose practices I don't care for.

LPF83

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2021, 05:01:21 PM »
For me it's not about "feeling I could own one," it's about having a (small) version of the thing that makes THAT sound. I guess if I'm trying to make any point, it's just that things can be blurry, whether in black and white or in colour. My musical needs will always determine what gear I use/buy, but I'm certainly capable of feeling guilty or sheepish from time to time!

I'm sorry, but this sounds an awful lot like "nostalgia trumps ethics" for you...

Consider this: the Solina sounded how it did because of technical and commercial limitations. People used it because it filled an economic and practical music production role - convincing enough strings that were affordable, didn't require a room full of people and even more expensive instruments, and could be easily transported. Literally any string substitute can take its place, because it itself was just a pastiche, a stand-in for real strings. If you're so into THAT sound, just dial up any old string patch on any half-decent synth and run it through an ensemble effect. You'll be closer to the spirit of the original than any clone of the original will be, and you won't need to vote with your dollars to support derivative, parasitic business models, either.

Honestly, I posted this because I am indeed questioning my ethics here. I'm not wishing to defend anything other than the "things can be blurry" bit, cos that's how life works for me, a sometimes messy and inconsistent human.

As far as the Solina sound itself, versus dialing up any old string patch, well, sorta/almost. I did that this morning with the Prologue which, especially with a User created BBD effect, does a pretty good classic string machine sound. I've got a PolySix, which does, well, the classic PolySix string sound. I've got GForce's VSM, which I adore and use often. I'm not using string synths in a "trying to sound like real strings." I've got string players for that. Or decent sampled strings in Logic. The Solina sound is a particular fav of mine, and I'm admitting to being tempted by the impending re-creation of it by a company whose practices I don't care for.

I can relate to wanting a CERTAIN sound, not one that far surpasses it, but a particular original sound that is dated and "inferior" in all the right ways.  If Behringer makes a niche instrument instrument(s) that faithfully capture the soul of the original, and if the value is there to the buyer, and PARTICULARLY if there are not superior offerings available from a better synth vendor, honestly not only do I not blame the buyer, but would be tempted to cast aside my own bias in that situation.

I am actually guilty of pondering buying a Pro-1, simply because Dave does not yet offer a real Pro One, the Pro-1 does seem to come remarkably close in sound (suffering only from tiny knobs), and the price makes it extremely tempting.

And I'll say it again, if B comes out with a clone of a synth I want, that they absolutely nail, at a remarkable price, then I can't say that my bias against them would necessarily enough for me to exercise restraint.  And maybe that makes me a hypocrite second, but it makes me a lover of good sounding synths first.

So if you want their Solina clone you won't get any harassment from me over it.  But I will say that as a company they are not to be trusted, so be sure to purchase based on a comparison from someone that can, rather than sound demos they release.
Prophet 10, Prophet 6, OB-6, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Moog SlimPhatty, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland SPD-30, Roland SPD-SX Special Edition, Roland KT-10, Maschine, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen + Octopre, Strymon Pedals, Cubase Pro 11.

timboréale

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2021, 05:22:43 PM »
I guess I'm alone here in not really caring if I get "that" sound from a synth, if the sound I get from it is awesome anyway. I'm not a boomer, maybe that's why. I didn't grow up with a particular affinity to a particular sound - I grew up with an affinity to great sounds of all kinds, and an enjoyment in new ones as much as old. I care far more about beauty, quality -- the nature of the device in a physical and material aesthetic as much as sound quality, as much as interface and workflow. I also strongly value local and repairable construction, and will "overpay" - that is to say, pay a fair and sustainable price, happily! - for an item that meets these criteria. I will simply go without if I cannot meet those criteria or cannot afford to do so.

Well, all that and I don't let my desire trump my ethics when alternatives exist. Not buying anything is my preferred alternative anyway. I could make incredibly good music with a single Pro 2 or Rev2-8, so all the rest of this is just a luxury. And if it's a luxury, then I see no defence whatsoever in supporting unethical business, manufacturing, or marketing ethics. To me it's absolutely simple and clear, and I just don't accept that it's somehow a grey area for people. It's unpopular to point out, but it's genuinely selfish to think it's somehow acceptable to wave off ethical concerns for luxury consumption. If you support, knowingly and deliberately, unethical manufacture when buying a totally nonessential luxury item, I don't care if alternatives don't exist - you don't need the item, so not getting it is the right choice.

You can make the argument that fundamentally all the components are sourced from wherever and unethical in some way - and yes, I agree with you. That's why I don't buy every synth I can afford, either. There's clearly a room for grey, but it's not in "do I buy this crappy knockoff clone or just be happy with these other friggen awesome much more ethical synths that I already have" - that one's clear as day.

So, with all due respect, your combined arguments are falling on very deaf ears here.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

LPF83

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2021, 05:42:32 PM »
I guess I'm alone here in not really caring if I get "that" sound from a synth, if the sound I get from it is awesome anyway. I'm not a boomer, maybe that's why. I didn't grow up with a particular affinity to a particular sound - I grew up with an affinity to great sounds of all kinds, and an enjoyment in new ones as much as old. I care far more about beauty, quality -- the nature of the device in a physical and material aesthetic as much as sound quality, as much as interface and workflow. I also strongly value local and repairable construction, and will "overpay" - that is to say, pay a fair and sustainable price, happily! - for an item that meets these criteria. I will simply go without if I cannot meet those criteria or cannot afford to do so.

Well, all that and I don't let my desire trump my ethics when alternatives exist. Not buying anything is my preferred alternative anyway. I could make incredibly good music with a single Pro 2 or Rev2-8, so all the rest of this is just a luxury. And if it's a luxury, then I see no defence whatsoever in supporting unethical business, manufacturing, or marketing ethics. To me it's absolutely simple and clear, and I just don't accept that it's somehow a grey area for people. It's unpopular to point out, but it's genuinely selfish to think it's somehow acceptable to wave off ethical concerns for luxury consumption. If you support, knowingly and deliberately, unethical manufacture when buying a totally nonessential luxury item, I don't care if alternatives don't exist - you don't need the item, so not getting it is the right choice.

You can make the argument that fundamentally all the components are sourced from wherever and unethical in some way - and yes, I agree with you. That's why I don't buy every synth I can afford, either. There's clearly a room for grey, but it's not in "do I buy this crappy knockoff clone or just be happy with these other friggen awesome much more ethical synths that I already have" - that one's clear as day.

So, with all due respect, your combined arguments are falling on very deaf ears here.

No offense taken whatsoever. 

The ethical matters are important... but up to a point.  The point being is that if I desire a particular instrument, and B does in fact perfect the replica (unlikely in itself), and offer good quality (equally as unlikely), and (the operative concept here) there are no other reasonable options for obtaining that same instrument elsewhere, then I might consider that a form of self-redemption toward past violations.

But, that doesn't mean I would ever try to convince you to buy into my opinions or modus operandi;  it is your hard earned money and you should vote with your wallet in the direction you're comfortable with.  That's exactly what I've been doing and you can probably see from my gear list which vendor I have a preference for.

I also felt compelled to mention, just for the record, I'm GenX and not a Boomer :)   But yes I am sometimes in pursuit of nostalgic sounds, to some extent.  There are a lot of good memories deep in my brain of a simpler time that have synaptic association to those sounds.  And I understand if millenials or GenY don't get that, for now.  But I can also guarantee that they one day will.
Prophet 10, Prophet 6, OB-6, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Moog SlimPhatty, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland SPD-30, Roland SPD-SX Special Edition, Roland KT-10, Maschine, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen + Octopre, Strymon Pedals, Cubase Pro 11.

Jonas

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2021, 03:42:31 AM »
After seeing Behringer's approach to releasing reproductions and teasing replica models, I wouldn't be surprised if they start teasing future releases of older, discontinued DSI instruments like the Evolver line or even replicas of current Sequential items just for a reaction. When I think of Behringer, I still just picture all of their rackmount gear and signal processing equipment which I would see for sale in the used section at music shops in the mid 90's, so they just don't even come to mind when I think of a synthesizer company.  I'm trying to imagine myself with an UB-Xa and wondering if I would even approach it the same as my other keys, knowing that it was never an instrument that I really sought after and that it is just a cheapened version that's easily acquired which somehow captures the sound of a classic Oberheim. Feels like walking into a gun fight where my pistol has a red plastic cap in the barrel and has "Toys "R" Us" stamped on the side of it. Whereas whenever I'm spending time with my Mono Evolver Keys, I just naturally feel excited to play it and create something, not only because it sounds amazing and is a lot of fun, but because it is a one of a kind instrument and I had to work hard to get it, and even Joanne at DSI even had to pull one from their office so I could have it new in the box.

Speaking of Evolvers... I moved to Moscow, Russia last year from the States and it's nice to see all of the unique synths that are in the used markets over here, whereas in the States the used synth market is dominated by Volcas, Mini / Monologues or modular gear.  Two Poly Evolver Racks were up for sale just last week for $1200 and I can't remember anytime recently when I saw those go for less than $1700 back in the States, where it's rare to even see used ones listed for sale.

In any how, I was really surprised to see that Behringer may release the thing as an Oberheim synth. Unless Tom has approved of this, it's just not needed and seems inappropriate.
DSI/Pioneer: |Tempest|PRO 2|PRO '08|OB-6|MonoEvolverKeys|MophoKeys|Toraiz AS-1|SP-16|
Oberheim: |DMX|DPX-1|Matrix 1000|

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2021, 08:19:16 AM »
Egads!  Please don't ever put the words Evolver and Behringer in the same sentence.  If at any point I have to witness the appearance of a Bevolver, I will definitely lose my cool.  Such a masterpiece defiled by such an association?  No, it must never be allowed to happen on God's green earth.  It would be like we yankees getting our maple syrup from China. 

By the way, I haven't seen an Evolver Rack on the US used market for over a year, and I'm always watching.  There's presently a Poly Evolver Keyboard on Ebay for $2700, but it's from Russia!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 09:22:06 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2021, 09:36:28 AM »
Don't weary yourself too much reading through the comments section, but the B Solina is coming:

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2021/02/03/behringer-solina-string-ensemble-sneak-preview/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lc3IU-wT3c
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jg666

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2021, 12:13:40 AM »
I don't own any B gear but have been tempted occassionally by certain synths over the last couple of years, but in the end I decided I wouldn't get enough use out of them and I could probably get near the sound they produce with my existing setup.

I don't believe anyone should criticise or look down on people who do buy B gear though, that is just wrong. Nobody has the right to say what others should or shouldn't purchase surely?

I'm just stating an opinion, not wanting to get into an argument over things :)
DSI Prophet Rev2, DSI Pro 2, Moog Sub37, Korg Minilogue, Yamaha MOXF6, Yamaha MODX6, Yamaha Montage6

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2021, 01:56:55 PM »
I don't own any B gear but have been tempted occassionally by certain synths over the last couple of years, but in the end I decided I wouldn't get enough use out of them and I could probably get near the sound they produce with my existing setup.

I don't believe anyone should criticise or look down on people who do buy B gear though, that is just wrong. Nobody has the right to say what others should or shouldn't purchase surely?

I'm just stating an opinion, not wanting to get into an argument over things :)

Nobody should attack people for choosing NOT to buy B gear either...I actually see that happening much more often.

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2021, 02:23:02 PM »
I don't own any B gear but have been tempted occassionally by certain synths over the last couple of years, but in the end I decided I wouldn't get enough use out of them and I could probably get near the sound they produce with my existing setup.

I don't believe anyone should criticise or look down on people who do buy B gear though, that is just wrong. Nobody has the right to say what others should or shouldn't purchase surely?

I'm just stating an opinion, not wanting to get into an argument over things :)

Nobody should attack people for choosing NOT to buy B gear either...I actually see that happening much more often.

Yes, there's a convoluted thought here.  It's a bit like people who are quick to accuse others of being judgmental, usually for the purpose of ending all discussion of morality.  Uh...isn't accusing a person of being judgmental itself judgmental?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 02:34:41 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
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jg666

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2021, 02:36:40 PM »
I don't own any B gear but have been tempted occassionally by certain synths over the last couple of years, but in the end I decided I wouldn't get enough use out of them and I could probably get near the sound they produce with my existing setup.

I don't believe anyone should criticise or look down on people who do buy B gear though, that is just wrong. Nobody has the right to say what others should or shouldn't purchase surely?

I'm just stating an opinion, not wanting to get into an argument over things :)

Nobody should attack people for choosing NOT to buy B gear either...I actually see that happening much more often.

I totally agree. Just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to attack anyone, just stating my opinion that everyone should be able to make up their own minds without having to justify their purchasing decisions.

When I bought my Rev2, I went to a music shop to have a play with it and some other synths. I had a play with the Deepmind and really hated the feel of it, so that alone put me off B stuff !
DSI Prophet Rev2, DSI Pro 2, Moog Sub37, Korg Minilogue, Yamaha MOXF6, Yamaha MODX6, Yamaha Montage6

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2021, 12:24:13 PM »
https://www.musicradar.com/news/behringer-oberheim-trademark-bid-fails-so-what-does-this-mean-for-the-ub-xa-synth

Quote
According to documents released online, dated 4 March 2021, the application was refused on the basis that “Tom Oberheim is a famous audio engineer and electronics engineer well-known for designing effects processors, analog synthesizers, sequencers, and drum machines".

Worth clicking through to read the rest of the article and excerpts, link to the application from that article:

https://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn90121878&docId=OOA20210304112058#docIndex=0&page=1
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 12:26:04 PM by dizzy »

timboréale

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Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2021, 01:07:45 PM »
USPTO showing some common sense here for once, good on them!
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: OB-Xa
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2021, 02:59:53 PM »
https://www.musicradar.com/news/behringer-oberheim-trademark-bid-fails-so-what-does-this-mean-for-the-ub-xa-synth

Quote
According to documents released online, dated 4 March 2021, the application was refused on the basis that “Tom Oberheim is a famous audio engineer and electronics engineer well-known for designing effects processors, analog synthesizers, sequencers, and drum machines".

Worth clicking through to read the rest of the article and excerpts, link to the application from that article:

https://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn90121878&docId=OOA20210304112058#docIndex=0&page=1

That's excellent news.  It's true, the name could have misled some people to presume that Tom had worked with Uli on the instrument.
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