need help with intonation modeling

[Josh C]

I know that creative spiral can help me with this one. i'm struggling with intonation modeling via note number modulation. The problem I'm having is that the values in the mud matrix or too course. I tried setting up another mod slot with the source being DC and the destination being mod 1 amount, but for some reason I can't get it to scale back the values. in MOD slut 1 I have the source set to note number and the destination to osc all freq and the amount set to -1. I want the amount to be between0 and -1 but no matter what I do I can't get a value anywhere between the two. I have tried it both with keyboard tracking on and keyboard tracking off for both oscillators and I still get the same results. I am aware that with keyboard tracking off on the oscillators that I need to create at least two mod slots with the note number modulation to get full keyboard tracking, but no matter what I do I still get the same results. what am I doing wrong, and how do I scale back these values?

[maxter]

Oh yes, one of many the reasons we absolutely need osc fine tune as a mod destination... I've struggled with the same problem.

[Josh C]

Osc find tune wouldn't create the effect I'm trying to create. what I'm doing is slightly detuning the whole synth across the keyboard by throwing the keyboard tracking off kilter a little bit so that it would soundmore like a VCO synth. Slop alone will not create this effect. you have to either stretch or contract the keyboard tracking and then add a little bit of slop afterwards. The problem I'm having is that the values in the MOD matrix Artoo course so the keyboard tracking is being thrown off more than I want it to.

[timboréale]

The fact that the values are too coarse is why fine tune is the better destination - it has a much finer resolution so you could stretch the tuning across the board more precisely using that as the destination instead. I agree that, for a variety of uses including VCM, having fine tune as a destination instead of just pitch would be a big step forward for this instrument.

[Josh C]

I know that there is a way to scale back the values by creating another mod slot and routing it to the amount of the previous mod slot, but apparently I don't know the correct way to do it. Creative spiral did it in his blade runner brass pad tutorial video

[maxter]

Osc find tune wouldn't create the effect I'm trying to create.

Yes it would, with note number as source. As studiodc already stated, that's the whole point of getting osc fine tune as a mod destination, because the resolution when routing to osc pitch is too coarse in many cases (such as yours). With osc fine tune, we simply mean an osc pitch destination with finer resolution/increments, which is just what you want.

[Josh C]

thanks. I'll try that sometime this evening. I know that there was something in that blade runner patch video where he said something about the number 62 being a magic number but I'm not sure how that works. he was only using 2 mod slots. I know that he wasn't doing exactly the same thing I'm doing, but it's the same principle.

[maxter]

Yeah, I found a better solution.

Sequencer 1 set to no destination, set step 1 to a value of 1, step 2 to reset.

Mod slot 1: Source: Note number, amount 0, destination: oscs freq
Mod slot 2: Source: Sequencer 1, amount to your liking, destination: Mod slot 1 amount

This makes for a somewhat decent intonation.

[creativespiral]

Yeah, Maxter is on the right track here:

To do intonation modeling with both oscillators, you're going to use four mod slots total (2 for each osc)

Mod Slot 1:
S: Note Num
D: Osc Freq 1
A: 0

Mod Slot 2:
S: Note Num
D: Osc Freq 2
A: 0

Mod Slot 3
S: Seq 1
D: Mod Slot 1
A: Either -1 or +1

Mod Slot 4
S: Seq 2
D: Mod Slot 2
A: Either -1 or +1

(the -1/+1 will determine if going further up keybed gets more flat or sharp.. I found flat to be more common)

In the Gated sequencer, I recommend starting with a defined amount of voices and setting the amount the same in all the virtual voices... +30 for instance.   Also, mix one oscillator at a time and check with a tuner...  see how many cents sharp or flat the keybed is at the bottom key, and then check the top key... subtract them to figure out what the "total intonation delta" is for the five octave range.   If you're happy with that total range, then next step is to center the tuning in the middle of the keybed, or wherever you want it "most perfectly" in tune.  Play a middle C, and adjust the fine tune know until that note in the middle of the keybed is perfectly in tune.  Apply the same to Oscillator 2.   

Next, go back to the gated sequencer where you set all the steps to an equal amount earlier (ie: +30), and now you can give them offsets per voice... maybe keep things in a range between +20 and +40 if you used the example of +30 as your setup starting point...   After you've set small/medium offsets for each step, now play, and you'll find you have tons of organic character.   Each voice, and each oscillator has intonation / osc scaling to a slightly different degree... which in turn creates natural phasing per voice, and a general intonated character to the tuning of the instrument.   

(Note: the +62 value in gated sequencer with -31 fine tune offset is only applicable to the more basic vintage voice modeling without intonation...  For this method with intonation, the numbers are going to be different... you have to adjust fine tune to match whatever "centerpoint" you use in the gated seq intonation scaling... if you make the intonation more dramatic, the fine tune will need to be adjusted accordingly to center the sweet spot)

[Josh C]

thank you creative spiral for the reply. could you please also explain how I would do it without the sequencer? That is so that if I wanted to use the sequencer for something else I still could.

[maxter]

Don't hold your breath on that one... it may be possible if you are willing to sacrifice 5-6 mod slots instead, but until the arrival (hopefully) of a osc fine tune mod destination, sacrificing at least a sequencer and 2 mod slots is definitely the cheapest way to get close to what you're after, so to speak.

My very simple example uses 1 sequencer and 2 mod slots. I doubt there's a cheaper and simpler way than that, considering sacrifices of the available functions, to achieve this. You can expand the sequencer steps and so on as Creativespiral suggests, but if the fine tune osc mod destination ever gets here, we hopefully won't need to use the sequencers for this (unless we want individual offsets like CS method produces). Personally, I'm satisfied with a general intonation offset for all voices, with the hopefully eventual osc fine tune destination, as to use a sequencer or two for direct fine tune pitch offsets of the oscillators (and voices) instead.

Just as I like to use my JD-800, where a single intonation offset for all voices is enough with a single slider, the generally useful range 98-102% (whatever that means), and then the "random pitch" slider, which randomly applies a pitch offset for each voice at onset. Easy, swift and basic, but not so on the Rev2 unfortunately...

[creativespiral]

The gated sequencer method is really key to setting curated per voice offsets, and the most realistic vintage 70s/80s poly character.   

There are alternative methods to still get per voice intonation variance, but the downsides are many.   (due to course frequency modulation scaling, and LFO random bipolar behavior requiring offsets)... you'll end up sacrificing more precious sound design real estate (more mod slots, LFOs), and/or have less realistic/authentic results... plus if you're not using the gated sequencer to have per voice variance to envelopes as well, you're missing out on a bunch of the vintage character.   

You can substitute a performance mod input like Mod Wheel / Breath / Foot.... or Env3 for the gated sequencer, but it won't give you per oscillator or per voice offsets. 

Also, if you don't care about the per voice variance, you can possibly explore creating and importing an alternate tuning scale... I have not experimented with this, but it's probably possible to alter the intonation of the entire instrument this way.. if you just want intonation / osc scaling character alone.   Just beware that this would be applied globally for all your patches.   

[Josh C]

thanks guys for all the help. I'm going to try all the methods discussed here.