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"VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2

"VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« on: January 05, 2021, 09:06:41 AM »
Hi!
I tried the new P6 vintage slop mode feature on the 1.6.3 beta FW and is an amazing add;
i mean before this on the P6 and the REV 2 i can't use it more than less than few millimeters and now with the "vintage" mode in the new p6 firmware on the slop you can go until half and it act very very similar to the "vintage" knob on the new p5 ( i tried it by person ). Very smooth and very musical.

Please dear SEQUENTIAL do it also on the lovely REV 2! :) Anyone interested?

/////
Moog One 16v - DSI P08 Rev2 16v - Moog Grandmother - Korg Mono Poly - Roland Jx3p - Moog Mother 32 - Korg Minilogue - Arturia Minibrute
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 09:09:27 AM by MARTELLO »
// Moog One 16v - Prophet 5 Rev 4-  DSI P08 Rev2 16v - Moog Grandmother - Korg Mono Poly - Roland Jx3p - Moog Mother 32 - Korg Minilogue - Arturia Minibrute //

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2021, 01:01:31 PM »
Hi!
I tried the new P6 vintage slop mode feature on the 1.6.3 beta FW and is an amazing add;
i mean before this on the P6 and the REV 2 i can't use it more than less than few millimeters and now with the "vintage" mode in the new p6 firmware on the slop you can go until half and it act very very similar to the "vintage" knob on the new p5 ( i tried it by person ). Very smooth and very musical.

Please dear SEQUENTIAL do it also on the lovely REV 2! :) Anyone interested?

/////
Moog One 16v - DSI P08 Rev2 16v - Moog Grandmother - Korg Mono Poly - Roland Jx3p - Moog Mother 32 - Korg Minilogue - Arturia Minibrute

Yes! Please Sequential!

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2021, 07:53:18 AM »
YES!
This would leave more matrix slots free for other stuff...at least when attempting to emulate that vintage quality.

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2021, 08:06:30 AM »
YES!
This would leave more matrix slots free for other stuff...at least when attempting to emulate that vintage quality.

yes would be super!
// Moog One 16v - Prophet 5 Rev 4-  DSI P08 Rev2 16v - Moog Grandmother - Korg Mono Poly - Roland Jx3p - Moog Mother 32 - Korg Minilogue - Arturia Minibrute //

LPF83

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Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2021, 09:37:52 AM »
Vintage knob on the Rev2 would be most welcome!
Prophet 10, Prophet 6, OB-6, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland SPD-30, Roland SPD-SX Special Edition, Roland KT-10, Maschine, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen + Octopre, Strymon Pedals, Cubase Pro 11.

bax

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2021, 07:17:36 AM »
Pretty sure Pym already stated that there are no plans for this particular Vintage Knob functionality to make it back to the REV2 over at a thread on GS:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=15208982&postcount=44

That said, I'd also love to have the Vintage knob capabilities as well (and MPE, too).  Unfortunately I just don't think it's gonna happen...

Thanks!
bax

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2021, 07:44:57 AM »
In 25 years we’ll have the feature with no update!

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2021, 12:26:47 PM »
I've just installed it on my OB6, and it's great (I wouldn't have thought so), and I believe it would be even better on my REV2 !
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2021, 03:02:39 PM »
I also would love for this to make it's way to the Rev2

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2021, 09:55:11 PM »
Would that Voice Component Modelling that creativespiral person cooked up be able to cover this already?

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2021, 11:29:14 PM »
Would that Voice Component Modelling that creativespiral person cooked up be able to cover this already?

Seq devs have been mum on naming the specifics of the vintage knob implementation (trade secret and all) - but yeah, it's using the same general concept...  per voice variance to tuning, envelopes, filters and amp sections... that's what Voice Component Modeling does as well... and that's what I measured when I recorded all the vintage synths.   The way I go about it, and describe the implementation of VCM is through curated tables of stable offsets that target osc frequency, envelope ADR stage timing, filter and amp parameters on a per voice basis.   With VCM on the Rev2 you can get extremely granular in the voice modeling design - setting the amount of virtual voices (4,5,6,8,12,16), and specifically defining the offsets per voice, as well as targeting any parameter in the mod matrix, or even macro type behaviors, like per voice frequency glitches, transient pitch settle effects, or other quirks.   Once you build the VCM lookup table (via gated sequencer), the offsets are the same per voice, per component, every time you return to that voice, in round robin.  The VCM method gives you repeatable voice behavior from session to session.   

Based on discussions on GearSlutz, my interpretation is that the end result of Vintage Knob is similar (per voice variance to the same parameters), however the Vintage Knob implementation is probably not doing it with a curated static lookup table.   From the info that was revealed, it sounds like it may be more "randomized" in the generation of offsets, either through a random seed type of algorithm, or a more refined slop motion type of implementation, which targets more than just frequency... adding envelope timing, filter and amp parameters.   

From the Seq P5 marketing:
"We found that much of this desirable character was due to slight fluctuations and differences in the response times and frequencies of the individual VCOs, filters, envelopes, and amplifiers from voice to voice.  To give the same mojo to the new Prophet-5, we created the Vintage knob. Use it to dial in as much old-school randomness as you’d like."


I would love to get more clarification on the exact method they're using :)  I'm guessing that with some test equipment / oscilloscope it can probably be mostly figured out, but I don't currently have a P5/P6/OB6.

A couple years ago I documented findings of the slop algorithm in the "appendix thread"... it was a bit tedious, but was actually a catalyst for me starting to do more research on vintage poly synths, and led to the articles/videos on VCO phase jitter and voice modeling.

There's a bunch more info about voice modeling on the http://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com website, if you wanna check it out.  Also, I've uploaded several more articles about my research here:
https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/voice-component-modeling


« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 11:37:41 PM by creativespiral »

Sequential Pro 3 and Rev 2, Deepmind, PolyBrute - Sound Sets, Patch Banks - Available on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/sounddesign/

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2021, 07:15:15 AM »
Thanks for your response. I stumbled upon your VCM page a little over a week ago and started using it on my Rev2, which I've had since last April. I really appreciate your work on this, as I'm finding it's taking me less effort to make patches that I enjoy the sound of and feel are useable within my tracks (I'm still very new to synthesis). I was starting to consider selling or trading the Rev2 before this so... thanks again. 

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2021, 10:30:56 AM »
I'm still hopeful about this, but I also realize that the REV2 is a slightly different beast than a Prophet 5, Prophet 6, or OB6, because it's a DCO based synth. The software code for the vintage feature cannot simply be ported to it. Part of it would have to be rewritten specifically to allow DCO pitch drifting simulation.

The rest of the synth is pretty much like the others; digital envelopes, digital LFO, analog filters and VCAs. So there is hope yet.

BTW, some of the competitors have managed to include such a vintage feature with their DCO based synth, with great success. So anything is possible. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one...
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12, VC340

timboréale

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Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2021, 11:14:04 AM »
I'm still hopeful about this, but I also realize that the REV2 is a slightly different beast than a Prophet 5, Prophet 6, or OB6, because it's a DCO based synth. The software code for the vintage feature cannot simply be ported to it. Part of it would have to be rewritten specifically to allow DCO pitch drifting simulation.

Actually, it's quite trivial to do with a DCO-based synth - you do it much the same as the aforementioned VCM does it. Each voice already has individual pitch correction tables which create the base pitch reference values - these are then modified by the slop algorithm already. All that is necessary is to change the slop algorithm from a dynamically oscillating real-time value to a per-voice static offset based on the knob position. Adding the same behaviour to the filter cutoff and envelope parameters is much the same - and this is where the real work in the Rev2 would lie. You would effectively be writing another modulation path into each of these parameter values, in the same way that the mod matrix or anything else would adjust them. My guess is that since the P6 and OB6 don't have the extensive mod matrix of the Rev2 this left more room in the code to implement this. The Rev2 may or may not have space to add what is effectively 2-6 additional fixed modulation lanes and per-voice tables for these values (or CPU, given that they dedicated most of the remaining CPU to the effects already).

IMO the slop knob is basically not really useful in it's current form, and the VCM technique is not easily modulatable in real time by a single knob "to taste" rapidly, as it were - as well as consuming at least four to six modulation lanes and a hefty chunk of the step sequencer. I would absolutely welcome this feature to free up those resources. It's really a shame as the Rev2 is an absolutely killer synth in the lineup feature-wise, but to me it lacks that nuance in the sound department and if you have to eat up its major advantage (the gated sequencer and mod matrix) in order to get an awkward form of that nuance, you lose a big part of that value.

That said, a poorly executed or too-subtle implementation of this feature (I'd prefer it more like the P6 than the OB6) would be a wasted effort on their part too, so if they can't do it right due to resource constraints, I can understand why they'd rather not.
Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2021, 12:47:02 AM »
Would that Voice Component Modelling that creativespiral person cooked up be able to cover this already?

Vcm is a very nice idea, and i did on pretty every patch, but vould be amazing to free the stepgate sequencer and the modulation slots :) C'mon Dave we love you, please add the Vintage Knob! :)
// Moog One 16v - Prophet 5 Rev 4-  DSI P08 Rev2 16v - Moog Grandmother - Korg Mono Poly - Roland Jx3p - Moog Mother 32 - Korg Minilogue - Arturia Minibrute //

Naboo

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2021, 12:12:21 PM »
 :'( hope pym and all reconsider making this happen. It would be such a great addition to the Rev2

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2021, 07:56:50 PM »
yes, please add vintage knob functionality for the Rev 2 like you did for the P6 and OB6. I don't mind losing the slop feature. A vintage knob would be extremely useful in unison mode. that's what completely blew me away on the new P5 and P10. with the pan spread and the 16 voices on my Rev 2 I can't even imagine how good it would sound.

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2021, 01:59:40 AM »
I made an attempt to have my own "real time vintage control", using a simplified VCM preset (Thanks to Creative Spiral).
I am basically keeping only the modulation of the pitch by the offset sequences (SEQ 1 and 2 for osc pitch 1 and 2) and using the mod wheel to control the intensity.

In order to keep the use of matrix slots as low as possible I had to modify the offset sequence values so that when applied you do not get too much pitch offset...otherwise you also need  additional slots to control both osc pitch and compensate for pitch correction. It would be ideal to have minus (-) values in the sequence map to make the modulation more centered to the "0" value (bipolar)...but since we cannot use negative values, I then modified the sequence and reduce the offset from the "0".

Here is the SEQ1 and SEQ2 maps after the change:

SEQ1   5  1  6  5  13  9  3  19  Reset
SEQ2   8  4  0  6  10  7  3  17  Reset

I then added a random effect to filter cutoff via SEQ 4...again the amount of the SEQ 4 connected to the mod wheel.
I did the same with the VcaEnv Amt via SEQ4...this time not modulated by Mod Wheel since I finished all matrix slots.

Last One, an lfo set to random, modulating the LPF Dec and with the amount connected to the mod wheel. Of course the choice is up to your need...it could be modulating the attack or the release...

Here is in summary the matrix mod usage:

Mod slot 1
Source Seq 1
Amount 0
Dest Osc1Freq

Mod slot 2
Source Seq 2
Amount 0
Dest Osc2Freq

Mod slot 3
Source Modwheel
Amount 3
Dest Mod1 Amt

Mod slot 4
Source Modwheel
Amount 3
Dest Mod2 Amt

Mod slot 5
Seq 4
Amount 0
Dest Cutoff

Mod slot 6
Source Modwheel
Amount 70
Dest Mod5 Amt

Mod slot 7
Seq 4
Amount 127
Dest VcaEnv Amt

Mod slot 8
Source Modwheel
Amount 20
Dest Lfo2 Amt (Lfo1 already modulating the global pitch via aftertouch)

Lfo2
Dest LPF Dec
Shape Random
Freq 15
Amount 0

The idea is to control all those parameters in real time with one single controller, the mod wheel in this case. I am thinking of changing the mod wheel with either foot or expression so that the effect can be modulated by a device connected to the pedal/cv input on the back of the instrument... ideally an expression pedal or a volume controller like the one I am about to build by myself. (see pics attached)
Not sure if it works...at least not until I finish my DIY vintage knob (-;

I know it is not the same and we lose all matrix slots...but still is an option.
I really hope we do get an updated firmware with the improved vintage functionality...or at least 4...better 8 additional matrix slots to work with.

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2021, 09:10:57 AM »
Just chiming in here to add that I really hope they replace the slop knob with a "vintage" knob. Ever since Creative Spiral dropped his VCM magic, I've been addicted and kind of feel like it's essential for making the kinds of sounds I like. I hate using up the mod slots, but I do it anyway. A vintage knob would absolutely rule.

Re: "VINTAGE" knob feature req on the REV2
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2021, 10:06:17 AM »
Hey guys - I've been meaning to do this for a while..  I just created two new VCM vintage templates for Rev2 that represent voice modeling in the most basic form - using only 2 mod slots and the gated sequencer... so you have as much modulation real estate as possible for sound design. 

VCM_Basic5V_Vint_'80.syx
VCM_Basic5V_Vint_'85.syx

These two templates only target Osc Freq 1/2, plus EnvAll Attack/Release.   These are the four "highest priority" parameters to target for voice modeling, in my opinion.   In the other templates I have uploaded to my PresetPatch profile, and included in my VCM sound set, there are a bunch of additional parameters targeted, and more advanced voice modeling... including doing intonation based offsets to osc frequencies, targeting more parameters in the VCF/VCA sections, emulating VCO harmonic jitter, and transient effects / glitches... but for these two new template patches, I removed all the extra stuff and just kept it targeted on highest priority voice offsets, with the goal of using the least amount of mod slots, and keeping all four lfos free for sound design.

The '85 template is more subdued, and the one I would recommend using in 90% of sound design scenarios.  For the '80 template, I just cranked up the offsets in gated sequencer to give more extreme voice-to-voice offsets to tuning and env behavior.   (you can open up the gated sequencer and adjust offsets to taste.   The first two lanes are targeting Osc1/2 frequency... the closer to 62 value, the more in-tune they will be.   The last two lanes target EnvAll Attack and Release.  Increasing these values quickens the attack/release respectively for the given voice.   You can also change the Reset step for each seq lane.   In these templates I set reset to step 6, creating a virtual 5-voice modeling situation.   You can adjust to virtually model 6-voices, 8-voices, or even remove the reset altogether and have all 16 virtual voices with voice modeling offsets)

If you crank up 4P resonance a bit and extend the filter and amp attack/decay/release times to be more of a pad sound, you'll hear how much the envelope offsets give separation to resonant peaks in the ADR stages. 

I uploaded the templates to my profile here:
https://www.presetpatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral


Sequential Pro 3 and Rev 2, Deepmind, PolyBrute - Sound Sets, Patch Banks - Available on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/sounddesign/