help needed programming gated sequencer

help needed programming gated sequencer
« on: November 29, 2020, 12:40:14 PM »
I need to use the gated sequencer to create offsets for the filter cutoff level for 2 voices in unison mode. i'm trying to recreate the dual filter sweep sound from tom sawyer by Rush. everything else I've tried has not worked. I don't have a clue what I'm doing when it comes to the gated sequencer so could somebody please explain to me how to program this sound? if there's a way to do it without using the gated sequencer could someone please tell me how to do it?

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2020, 01:49:04 PM »
I need to use the gated sequencer to create offsets for the filter cutoff level for 2 voices in unison mode. i'm trying to recreate the dual filter sweep sound from tom sawyer by Rush. everything else I've tried has not worked. I don't have a clue what I'm doing when it comes to the gated sequencer so could somebody please explain to me how to program this sound? if there's a way to do it without using the gated sequencer could someone please tell me how to do it?

I uploaded a patch last year, available here:
https://www.presetpatch.com/user/creativespiral

SYN_HugeSweep_VCM.syx

This patch uses Voice Modeling to offset the Envelope timings (as well as other parameters) on a per-voice basis, which helps to capture the "Sawyer Sweep" sound. 

You can read more about voice modeling here:
http://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com

And this video shows the process of setting up per-voice offsets to tuning / envelopes / etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB9HG3k3vvQ&t=350s

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
Sound Sets:
https://sounddesign.sellfy.store/
Free Patches:
https://www.PresetPatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2020, 03:10:33 PM »
thank you for your reply. The blade runner patch video is what made me realize that I needed to program offsets. However, I don't understand the gated sequencer at all. it is menu driven, and being totally blind, it is really the only feature on the synth that I struggle with. I have someone who can go through the menus with me, but I still don't understand a lot of what the stuff means. this is my first analog synthesizer, so I've never used a gated sequencer of any kind before. The only sequencers I know how to use our polyphonic. I want to be able to make all my own patches because there is something fulfilling about dialing it all and myself. i've already made five complex patches from scratch starting with nothing but a saw wave. I would like to eventually be able to do the same thing with the gated sequencer. If someone could please explain to me what the parameters in the gated sequencer are and what they are used for, then I may have a better understanding of it. this patch that I am trying to make only contains 2 voices in unison mode on one layer, so hopefully it won't be too hard to do what I'm trying to do myself.

maxter

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Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2020, 05:45:32 PM »
I assume you know how a sequencer works, in general. Most often they're used to control pitch, but in many cases, such as this, they can be used to control lots of other parameters as well. Think of each sequencer as a sample-and-hold LFO with (up to) 16 definable steps. There are 4 sequencers on the Rev2, which can be useful... However, I personally find it cumbersome to program the sequencers on the Rev2 by itself, with just one knob and menu-diving through 4x16 steps (or 8x16 for stacked/split mode) to program them. It is easy to lose track when programming this way.

So it is really beneficial to have an editor for this. There are 2 good ones for PC, and a less good one for iPad, though that app is only $5, and works alright for programming the sequencers.
Unfortunately this means having to connect to a computer or iPad, with the added extra hassle...

Probably my biggest lament (design-wise) compared to the original Prophet '08, which had 16 knobs that could be used for programming those sequencers. The Rev2, on the other hand, begs for an external editor to edit those sequencers...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 05:52:54 PM by maxter »
The Way the Truth and the Life

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2020, 10:24:33 PM »
I don't want to use any external apps because I don't know if these apps will be accessible for me. any sequence that I want to program in the gated sequencer will be simple with only a couple steps. I just need to know what I'm doing. so am I right in understanding that each track in the gated sequencer is a different parameter that can be modulated?

maxter

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Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2020, 04:38:21 AM »
Well, yes each track is a modulator, or modluation source, that can modulate most of the available synth parameters. Just as an LFO can modulate things. Each sequencer track can modulate whatever parameter you choose as its destination. You can of course modulate more than just one parameter, if you assign the sequencer as a source in one of the modulation slots.

For example, if you assign a sequencer to modulate pitch of both oscillators, and set step1 to 0, step2 to 24, and step3 to reset (which makes the sequencer start over from step1 each time it reaches step3, like a loop point) then when pressing a key, for example C1, then the sequencer will play a C1 at step1, followed by a C2 (one octave up) at step2. Then it will reset and repeat those steps as long as you hold down the key, driven by the BPM tempo, in most of the sequencer modes. In this case it would act as a squarewave LFO, jumping between the two steps back and forth. But with ”Key Step” mode, the sequencer only advances a step each time you press a key, so with that mode and above example, the pitch would alternate between a C1 and a C2 each time you press C1.

You can route the sequencers to the same destinations that are available for the LFOs, so there are lots of possibilities. By setting different reset points for each sequencer, you can make polyrhythms for example.

Each sequencer step can have a value between 0-125, then there is a ”rest” step for sequencers 1 an 3, which is like a ”mute” function for steps (used to rest steps in rhythmic sequences), and then there’s ”reset”, which specifies the previous step as the last before repeating. So if I only want to use 12 steps, I set step 13 to reset.

I find it hard to explain, so just ask again if anything is unclear.
The Way the Truth and the Life

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2020, 11:40:02 AM »
thank you so much for explaining all that to me. from what I read in the manual last night and from what you explained I think I'm starting to grasp it now. i'm going to try and learn the sequencer menus sometime within the next couple weeks whenever my friend has time to go over them with me. in the meantime, for now, I'm using audio mod to create the filter sweep until I can program it with the sequencer. It's pretty close to the way I want it to sound right now. my only question is, how do I get the sequencer to play 2 steps at the same time in unison mode if it only advances one step when the sequencer is set to key step mode? I need 2 steps to play at the same time to get the dual filter sweep.

maxter

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Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2020, 01:22:44 PM »
Well, in unison mode which is mono, as there’s just one note to play, you can only be at one step in the sequencer. If you play polyphonically with unison mode off, and with sequencer key step mode, each successive note you play will advance to the next sequencer step. So first note played is step 1, second note is step 2, and so on. When used in key step mode, each step is ”static”. They don’t sweep between values, as they are just steps. If step 1 has a value of 0, it will hold that value for the first note from start to finish. So I don’t think you can do filter sweeps with the gated sequencers very well.

I would say you get best filter sweeps using the filter envelope. That way you can easily dial in how long attack, decay and release times the sweep should have. Unless you want it to sweep up and down repeatedly while holding a key, if so you could use an LFO or the auxiliary envelope which can be set to repeat.
The Way the Truth and the Life

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2020, 10:56:09 PM »
i'm not trying to create the actual sweep with the sequencer, I'm just trying to create the offsets. I know that it somehow can be done but I just don't know how to do it. The new Prophet 5, Which I assume is using VCM, can do that sound. I've heard it in a demo.

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 12:51:13 PM »
i'm not trying to create the actual sweep with the sequencer, I'm just trying to create the offsets. I know that it somehow can be done but I just don't know how to do it. The new Prophet 5, Which I assume is using VCM, can do that sound. I've heard it in a demo.

Hey Josh... the gated sequencer only progresses one step per key strike... in unison mode, it still only advanced one step at a time despite there being multiple voices triggered.   

The alternate to achieve the offset envelopes is to stack two identical patches to get a Unison-2 type of stack sound, and adjust the gated sequencers on each layer.  Be aware though, there is a bug in the Rev2, where the gated sequencer does not advanced properly in key step mode when you stack patches together and try to use the gated sequencer on both layers.  It skips some steps incorrectly.   

Sequential is aware of it...  it's a known bug, reported last year and confirmed by others...   I'm hoping it is fixed in next firmware update, as it will improve the Voice Modeling capabilities, as well as make it so you can program in proper stacked patches with gated sequencers on both layers.   

------------------------------------

Support Ticket 48090
Gated Sequencer does not advance properly when using both layers in Key Step mode.
A fix to this would improve Voice Modeling capabilities with the Rev2, and also allow proper working patches with dual layer syncopated sequences using the Gated Sequencer key step with arp.   We'll be able to create some really advanced melodic motion patches using both layers.

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
Sound Sets:
https://sounddesign.sellfy.store/
Free Patches:
https://www.PresetPatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2020, 08:12:35 PM »
thank you for the clarification. I thought about creating a layered patch, but then I wouldn't be able to do the lead sound at the same time as I can now. i've decided to stick with audio mod. It creates a sound that is so close to the original that most people wouldn't know the difference. A friend of mine came over yesterday and heard it and was blown away so I must be doing something right. The cool thing about audio mod is that with more than one voice running in unison mode,and key reset turned off on both oscillators, You can get some pretty random results each time you press a key.

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2020, 08:38:41 PM »
here's an update. I finally figured out how to get a proper Tom Sawyer filter sweep on the Rev 2. I used a very small amount of an LFO set to random at the lowest speed setting. I set the destination to LPF ENV amount. I hit unison… bingo! and it's in stereo and Layer B is still available so I can still do the lead. I really love all the stuff I can do with this synth. it's a joy to program it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 08:48:56 PM by Josh C »

panic

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2020, 03:15:10 AM »
here's an update. I finally figured out how to get a proper Tom Sawyer filter sweep on the Rev 2. I used a very small amount of an LFO set to random at the lowest speed setting. I set the destination to LPF ENV amount. I hit unison… bingo! and it's in stereo and Layer B is still available so I can still do the lead. I really love all the stuff I can do with this synth. it's a joy to program it.

I used to do the same with the P08 to introduce small variations: set random keysynced LFO to low speed and small amount. I thought the results were great! Then I actually found out the random LFO is not true random, but a seemingly random sequence of values, which is actually fixed and always the same. Sometimes, hearing great results is done "in between" the ears...

Re: help needed programming gated sequencer
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 05:21:34 PM »
i'm going to try some other stuff to simulate the way oscillator and envelope drift truly behave. if slop were available as a modulation source and not just a destination it would really open up a lot of possibilities. from listening to what the oscillators do when slop is set to maximum, it appears to me that it uses a very slow triangle LFO, Slower than the slowest available LFO speed setting, to modulate pitch. I don't know if this is possible with the LFO's, but if I could scale back the LFO speed to a value unavailable using the speed knob by putting it in a mod slot, then I could set the destination of the LFO to env all amount, and it would more accurately emulate the envelope drift. if there were a slew parameter for the LFO's like on some other modern synthesizers, then I would be able to do it more precisely. I think that real drift is more like a random LFO with a lot of slew set to a very slow speed.