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Some Tempest usage questions for you guys

Pym

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Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« on: October 24, 2020, 01:43:21 PM »
I'm mulling around some design ideas on future products (seriously this is preliminary so don't get your hopes up) and have been going back to the Tempest with some of the more complex handling of multiple instruments and recording tracks with a simple interface so I wanted to make sure I checked to see if my assumptions were correct... so a few questions if anybody would like to participate:

1. Do you use the Bank B sounds? If so, how do you use them?
2. Do you record parameters with the sliders normally? Do you find it intuitive?
3. Do you use the sliders live normally? Do you find it intuitive?
4. If you do use the sliders, what sort of functions do you find most fun? What sort of macros do you assign to them?
5. Do you use the MIDI delay? If not, would you if you had more voices?

I have my own tricks for these sections but I know the instrument inside and out, so I'm really curious how you guys use them.

If people do contribute to this I will follow up with some discussion about features you with the Tempest had in specific sections that I have more insight into now that I've had nearly 10 years (wow...) to learn more about synth and drum machine design that I think you guys will find fun.
Dave Smith Instruments

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2020, 01:58:15 PM »
I usually reserve bank B for synth sounds such as basses or synth sequences while Bank A I always use for “kits” with the static digital samples. The sliders I usually use for opening the cutoff in real time or to record the release/decay of a hi hat sample to mimic a hi hat opening and closing. I use the midi delay on hi hats/tambourine samples once in a while or sometimes with an arpeggiator conga sequence to give the impression of rapid hand rolls.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Tempest Drum Computer, ISLA S2400 Drum Sampler, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.

Bahm

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2020, 01:51:29 AM »
I use all of them besides the B Bank. But maybe I will someday.
I record the sliders and yes I think its intuitive although it sounds not the same while recording as it saves the parameters per step while you here smooth transitions while recording.
Live they are good. Mostly I use the standards like hp, lp, decay or the roll sometimes. It's a bit sad u can't use the knobs in 16 Beats really as for example you have all highpasses for all sounds on the same level afterwards. Should be relatively to the original setting.
I use the midi delay sometimes, but the same thing as audio would be better. For sounds that aren't too often in your pattern it's good.

I have my own tricks for these sections but I know the instrument inside and out, so I'm really curious how you guys use them.
Just tell em!

Pym

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2020, 02:13:21 AM »
The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

I use all of them besides the B Bank. But maybe I will someday.
I record the sliders and yes I think its intuitive although it sounds not the same while recording as it saves the parameters per step while you here smooth transitions while recording.
Live they are good. Mostly I use the standards like hp, lp, decay or the roll sometimes. It's a bit sad u can't use the knobs in 16 Beats really as for example you have all highpasses for all sounds on the same level afterwards. Should be relatively to the original setting.
I use the midi delay sometimes, but the same thing as audio would be better. For sounds that aren't too often in your pattern it's good.

I have my own tricks for these sections but I know the instrument inside and out, so I'm really curious how you guys use them.
Just tell em!
Dave Smith Instruments

Bahm

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2020, 12:34:36 AM »
The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

Oh, you are right, I meant the beat wide parameters and looked in the manual. Have to try that. Still learning after only about a month owning my tempest. Thanks.

Pym

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 02:57:40 AM »
Same thing, they are non-destructive. The knob movements are the same as the Beat FX in beat mode

The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

Oh, you are right, I meant the beat wide parameters and looked in the manual. Have to try that. Still learning after only about a month owning my tempest. Thanks.
Dave Smith Instruments

Pym

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2020, 03:17:05 AM »
Yeah that seems standard for bank B where obviously you can't integrate them into the bank A sounds easily, it has to be separate. Interesting how it pushes the user in that direction

I usually reserve bank B for synth sounds such as basses or synth sequences while Bank A I always use for “kits” with the static digital samples. The sliders I usually use for opening the cutoff in real time or to record the release/decay of a hi hat sample to mimic a hi hat opening and closing. I use the midi delay on hi hats/tambourine samples once in a while or sometimes with an arpeggiator conga sequence to give the impression of rapid hand rolls.
Dave Smith Instruments

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2020, 02:06:31 PM »
All depends from the kit’s genre..
(I’m designing my new genre kits as we speak btw).
For instance in YA Dub kit i use Bank B for FX/Synth sounds and Bank A for drums,percussion and bass.
Also in this example i use MIDI delay for percussion sounds to give that echoo..echoo...type of effect though i’d prefer Tempest to have a fully fledged FX section (in T2 maybe..)
As for the sliders it follows the same genre rules.In YA Glitch kit for instance i love to mangle my Beats with repeats by using the sliders plus some pitch shifting.A granular type of mangling would be my dream combo along with repeats..I use the sliders in both recording and live jamming


Bahm

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2020, 04:18:11 AM »
Same thing, they are non-destructive. The knob movements are the same as the Beat FX in beat mode

The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

Oh, you are right, I meant the beat wide parameters and looked in the manual. Have to try that. Still learning after only about a month owning my tempest. Thanks.

I tested it today and unless I am doing anything wrong it's not the same. If I use the sliders and release them, the sounds are like they were before.
If i use the knobs and put them back to zero or all the way left, it's not like it was before, so all filters are set to the same amount afterwards as example. I have to press Revert to come back to the settings I had.

Pym

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2020, 07:08:12 AM »
I promise you it's the same algorithm, it just doesn't zero out at the zero or halfway point of the knob

If you reset the beat (hit the pad again to reload it) it will go back to zero

Same thing, they are non-destructive. The knob movements are the same as the Beat FX in beat mode

The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

Oh, you are right, I meant the beat wide parameters and looked in the manual. Have to try that. Still learning after only about a month owning my tempest. Thanks.

I tested it today and unless I am doing anything wrong it's not the same. If I use the sliders and release them, the sounds are like they were before.
If i use the knobs and put them back to zero or all the way left, it's not like it was before, so all filters are set to the same amount afterwards as example. I have to press Revert to come back to the settings I had.
Dave Smith Instruments

Pym

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2020, 07:10:18 AM »
Yep, still proving my suspicions though in terms of use cases. I'm doing some second-order thinking on the design and have some theories about how the UI pushes people to make certain type of kits and interactions due to the ease of use of certain behaviors.

Fast beat repeats, especially unsync'd, would be a lot of fun especially if you could do buffer repeats

All depends from the kit’s genre..
(I’m designing my new genre kits as we speak btw).
For instance in YA Dub kit i use Bank B for FX/Synth sounds and Bank A for drums,percussion and bass.
Also in this example i use MIDI delay for percussion sounds to give that echoo..echoo...type of effect though i’d prefer Tempest to have a fully fledged FX section (in T2 maybe..)
As for the sliders it follows the same genre rules.In YA Glitch kit for instance i love to mangle my Beats with repeats by using the sliders plus some pitch shifting.A granular type of mangling would be my dream combo along with repeats..I use the sliders in both recording and live jamming
Dave Smith Instruments

Bahm

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2020, 07:28:45 AM »
I promise you it's the same algorithm, it just doesn't zero out at the zero or halfway point of the knob

If you reset the beat (hit the pad again to reload it) it will go back to zero

Same thing, they are non-destructive. The knob movements are the same as the Beat FX in beat mode

The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

Oh, you are right, I meant the beat wide parameters and looked in the manual. Have to try that. Still learning after only about a month owning my tempest. Thanks.

I tested it today and unless I am doing anything wrong it's not the same. If I use the sliders and release them, the sounds are like they were before.
If i use the knobs and put them back to zero or all the way left, it's not like it was before, so all filters are set to the same amount afterwards as example. I have to press Revert to come back to the settings I had.
I did never write it destroys somerhing... But I don't use the knobs really because you can't smooth filter in and out again. Thats just not as good as it could have been. If you have one sound with highpass and one without, after using the hp knob both have no highpass or hp on the same frequency. The zero mark should just be the point where you started at each sounds filter setting. Just like the slider does.

Pym

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2020, 03:34:30 PM »
That's why we have revert

I know how you feel about the response of the knobs, but I can assure you I tried it that way and I hated it. It was MUCH worse for a lot of reasons. There is absolutely no question in my mind that this is the superior algorithm and I rarely feel that strongly about things like this. I don't really want to get into details, but it was the right choice here.

I promise you it's the same algorithm, it just doesn't zero out at the zero or halfway point of the knob

If you reset the beat (hit the pad again to reload it) it will go back to zero

Same thing, they are non-destructive. The knob movements are the same as the Beat FX in beat mode

The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

Oh, you are right, I meant the beat wide parameters and looked in the manual. Have to try that. Still learning after only about a month owning my tempest. Thanks.

I tested it today and unless I am doing anything wrong it's not the same. If I use the sliders and release them, the sounds are like they were before.
If i use the knobs and put them back to zero or all the way left, it's not like it was before, so all filters are set to the same amount afterwards as example. I have to press Revert to come back to the settings I had.
I did never write it destroys somerhing... But I don't use the knobs really because you can't smooth filter in and out again. Thats just not as good as it could have been. If you have one sound with highpass and one without, after using the hp knob both have no highpass or hp on the same frequency. The zero mark should just be the point where you started at each sounds filter setting. Just like the slider does.
Dave Smith Instruments

Bahm

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2020, 11:24:43 PM »
That's why we have revert

I know how you feel about the response of the knobs, but I can assure you I tried it that way and I hated it. It was MUCH worse for a lot of reasons. There is absolutely no question in my mind that this is the superior algorithm and I rarely feel that strongly about things like this. I don't really want to get into details, but it was the right choice here.

I promise you it's the same algorithm, it just doesn't zero out at the zero or halfway point of the knob

If you reset the beat (hit the pad again to reload it) it will go back to zero

Same thing, they are non-destructive. The knob movements are the same as the Beat FX in beat mode

The beat FX are relative to the original settings per sound, it is a non-destructive algorithm. The sounds do not go to the same level when you turn the knob

Oh, you are right, I meant the beat wide parameters and looked in the manual. Have to try that. Still learning after only about a month owning my tempest. Thanks.

I tested it today and unless I am doing anything wrong it's not the same. If I use the sliders and release them, the sounds are like they were before.
If i use the knobs and put them back to zero or all the way left, it's not like it was before, so all filters are set to the same amount afterwards as example. I have to press Revert to come back to the settings I had.
I did never write it destroys somerhing... But I don't use the knobs really because you can't smooth filter in and out again. Thats just not as good as it could have been. If you have one sound with highpass and one without, after using the hp knob both have no highpass or hp on the same frequency. The zero mark should just be the point where you started at each sounds filter setting. Just like the slider does.
Sorry, but how the Filter on the Slider works isn't much worse for me than wirh the knobs. But discussion seems to make no sense. Much worse for a lot of reasons? I mean how many reasons for filter usage are there? I just don't get it.

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2020, 06:48:15 PM »
2. Do you record parameters with the sliders normally? Do you find it intuitive?

My opinion is that the ability to record values using the two sliders only seems too limited. I think its great as a  performance tool when jamming, but I would really love the ability to record most (if not all) knob functions per beat for more precision when making beats/sequences.

Maybe a more middle-ground approach would be to have an area on the panel with 5 or so knobs which can be freely assigned to specific parameters (or parameter combos / functions) and then only those can have individual recording capabilities. Or, even simpler, these knobs could be used for typical/standard drum functions, like "tune", "tone", etc. So you'd have the clear delineation between knobs dedicated to the core synthesis / sound modeling features, and a smaller set of knobs dedicated to quick / abstracted parameter control like you'd see on a typical drum machine (e.g. a knob for "tune", "tone", "snappy", etc.)

This is one of the things I like about the PRO 3's sequencer, the ability to record parameter changes with pretty much anything.

Thanks for starting this discussion, Pym! It's awesome to be able to have this sort of discussion with the guy who programmed the Tempest!

Stoss

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2020, 08:12:16 AM »
1. I use the Tempest primarily as a percussion only device as part of a three piece improvisational group. In that setting, my Soundbank A includes a typical kit layout and my Soundbank B includes more atypical sounds in a similar kit layout. This allows me to really settle into the Tempest as a drum kit and have an entirely unique palette to complement those sounds and add further expressions, particularly for playing live over a looping beat. When using the device as a stand alone groove box, I set a bass sound to pad A16 and a synth sound to B16 so that I can easily switch between playing them live with an external keyboard by simply copying and double taping pad 16. Additional synth sounds in the groove box will end up on Soundbank B, usually on the bottom row and towards the edges.

2. I ALWAYS record parameters with the sliders. It is not only intuitive but the most essential performance feature of the instrument. It allows me to live record percussion subtleties like no other electronic device I have. The sliders are integral to the shaping the sound of each pad when played… so integral that their setting should be saved and stored with each sound when saving them to the pool of sounds for use in other kits.

3. I also ALWAYS use the sliders live. They are very intuitive. I will say that the preference to set them as either STEP or REALTIME in their behavior would be better if it was a setting that could be changed and saved with each sound. Some sounds like a ambient noise work really well with STEP in that you may want to drop in a sound with a really long decay while still playing many others with a very short decay. STEP allows that long sound to sustain while continuing to play shorter ones. On more synth like sounds (Bass, Pads, Lead, etc.) REALTIME is necessary to get live performance control over things like the cutoff or resonance. Obviously it would be nice to record those smooth movements, so this is most beneficial for live performance.

4. I use the sliders very heavily for changing the Decay time of sounds as well as the timbre (which mostly involves a combination of LP and HP). On most sounds, these work very well for a percussion performance. On certain sounds I will set up other very complex performance macros based on the sound, but the decay and timbre are the place I will start on most sounds.

5. Hardly ever use MIDI delay. Probably because it is a voice hog, but also because it is very unintuitive to engage and any effect I get with it can be had much more fluidly by either live performing or recording using a combination of ROLL with changing pressure on the pad.

Stoss

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Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2020, 08:21:13 AM »
One more note about the sliders… They give me access to literally thousands of variations of each sound that I can record instantly. This is a big deal. Even bigger is that during the sound design process, you can decide exactly how you will want to vary that sound while performing. A device like the Rytm is wonderful with it’s parameter locking, but… there is no way to perform with expression and record that in a natural way. With the Rytm, I almost always have to enter my beat and then head to every one of the individual parameters and start moving them. I terms of designing a sound and having it sitting there ready to perform with… like you would pick up a shaker, or hold a triangle, or hit the hi-hats and move your foot, or put your hand on the snare drum while hitting it with a brush… The Tempest is intuitive in this way.

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2020, 12:10:52 PM »
Is Roger Linn going to be available for a year of bug testing again?

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2020, 12:57:59 PM »
1. Do you use the Bank B sounds? If so, how do you use them?
I do only once I run out of sounds in Bank A. I have no particular designation for the banks as I usually create the sessions from scratch and load up presets as I need.

2. Do you record parameters with the sliders normally? Do you find it intuitive?
All the time. I find the recording process itself intuitive, but the method of assigning parameters could be streamlined I think. I always wished the Slider Note FX assignments were saved and loaded with the preset itself, similar to how Mod Wheel assignments and Macros are normally saved with patches on other synths. When I reload certain presets I find myself having to remap the same Note FX again and again, etc.

3. Do you use the sliders live normally? Do you find it intuitive?
N/A I use it as a studio instrument pretty exclusively.

4. If you do use the sliders, what sort of functions do you find most fun? What sort of macros do you assign to them?

Filter is probably the most frequently assigned value along with various EG decay times. With bass/leads I always use the sliders for vibrato too. Recording with the sliders is really what brings the Tempest to life and where you get all the variety I think, and using them in general is very fun.

5. Do you use the MIDI delay? If not, would you if you had more voices?
I don't use it often. It's an interesting feature but the limited amount of voices means I really need to think out the rest of my arrangement if I'm going to use it. In general, it's not worth it and the effect it produces I'd rather manually program into the beat. Honestly even if there were more voices it'd probably be a feature I rarely used.

Re: Some Tempest usage questions for you guys
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2020, 04:00:11 PM »
Don't know what you're up to ;) but thank you for everything you've done, and I'm happy to answer!

1. I don't use Bank B at all. It feels inaccessible and tedious. I try to keep things as understandable and simple as possible, but Bank B feels like an awkward, hacky work-around.

2. Yes! I record with FX sliders all the time and love it. Never use 3+4 though for the same reason I don't use Bank B. Typically I record the slider AFTER recording the notes...sometimes to give it a subtle variation and human feel, sometimes to change the melody or entire thing (e.g. "playing the filter/resonance").

3. Sliders live a bit...mostly for building up the cutoff to prep for a beat change. It's a little annoying to set up for all beats consistently, and having to affect ALL parts rather than picking a few makes it only half useful.

4. Single-part sliders are pitch and cutoff 95% of the time. Beat sliders are pretty much just cutoff...I wish I could say "only affect these pads with this slider in beat mode."

5. I occasionally use the midi delay, but always tentatively. If it was an audio FX delay (vs midi) with a few simple params I'd use it a lot more. Give me that and a reverb voices could be individually sent to and I'd be so happy!

And for how I use the Tempest if useful:
I record full songs on my Tempest. Each project has four songs...song 1 on beats 1-4, song 2 on 5-8, etc. Each of the four beats per song is used for intro, verse, chorus, bridge or variations thereof. I also play some songs as single beats with mutes. I switch between beats, manipulate mutes, and use one FX slider for cutoff when playing live.
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