Analog / Digital Purists?

Shaw

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Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2020, 10:28:45 AM »

I would say it’s close...but personally for me I think digital synths should focus on their own sound rather than trying to emulate analog characteristics. That’s just me though. I may actually pull the trigger on the Roland System 8 finally because of this.
I’m guessing you mean that you like the System 8’s core sound as opposed to it’s Jupiter and Juno emulations?
I might have told you this before, but the keybed on that thing is horrid... 

People need to embrace digital synths for their ability to go beyond the capabilities of traditional analog....simply trying to emulate analog gear does a huge disservice to these instruments and really robs people of hearing something unique.
I didn’t mean to state that digital synths should only emulate analog synths; I just think that would be a good place to start.
For example, a wavetable synth where you remove the aliasing (through super high sample rates) and model the inconsistencies of analog envelopes and LFOs would probably sound stellar. 

I really really hope Sequential do a VCO/Wavetable based synth next. Preferably with two VCOs and two Wavetable oscillators But truth be told, I’d almost prefer if they came out with a Wavetable only or even Linear FM 8 operator based synth and embrace that sonic character.
I think just like we, as synthesists, have sounds and types of synthesis that we gravitate toward, so do synth manufacturers.  I bet Dave has never really done a full on FM synth because he just doesn’t care for the sound or style of synthesis.


I guess that’s why I’m not swoon over the reissue of the Prophet 5 and 10. I don’t really want another sawtooth or square wave, doesn’t matter if it’s from Sequential, Moog or whoever...but if there is to be another VCO based Sequential synth I want it to somehow offer me something new. Be it combining it with digital oscillators, having an MPE keyboard, bi timbrality or even multitimbrality etc.
Yet the Prophet 5 isn’t, in my estimation, just another sawtooth or square wave... it has a tried and true sonic character that is difficult if not impossible to replicate in other synths. A sonic character that most of us find pleasing.



I guess that’s why I’m not swoon over the reissue of the Prophet 5 and 10. I don’t really want another sawtooth or square wave, doesn’t matter if it’s from Sequential, Moog or whoever...but if there is to be another VCO based Sequential synth I want it to somehow offer me something new.

They could use a triangle core VCO instead of a sawtooth core VCO. I can't think of a single keyboard-based synthesizer that has a triangle core VCO. It's hard to tell the difference by ear, maybe the sine is a bit purer. But the triangle core shines when you FM two or more of them.

Sacred S is right when he says that analog waves haven't been sufficiently explored. This is way true. Keyboard synth companies like Moog and Sequential leave a lot of cool techniques on the bench.
You’re talking about modern synths, right?  I mean, didn’t the Memorymoog, OB-X and early Sequential boards all have triangle core VCOs?

.... and between you and Sacred Synthesis, I’m gonna need to buy an oscilloscope.  :)

People need to embrace digital synths for their ability to go beyond the capabilities of traditional analog....simply trying to emulate analog gear does a huge disservice to these instruments and really robs people of hearing something unique.

In some ways, virtual analog may have almost created its own distinct category, because a lot of folks (particularly EDM producers) pursue specific traits or sound characteristics from VA synths that, via their origins, started as a by-product of attempting to emulate analog but turned into more than that.  In other words they don't really pursue a digital sound or an analog sound as much as they pursue the characteristic sound digital makes when it is asked to behave as analog. 

I think that market is what synths like the Waldorf Kyra seek to fulfill.
Yeah... VA could be a third category outside of Analog and digital... in my mind they are the Rave Machines.

Someone will certainly disagree with this, but I would not, however, put the Super 6 or Summit in that category — simply because that super-saw-rave-VA sound is not the core sound of those synths.
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa
| Linnstrument | Suhr Custom Modern | Mayones Jaba Custom | Godin Multiac Nylon | Roland TD-50 | Synergy Guitar Amps | Eventide Effects Galore |

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2020, 11:00:53 AM »
I've been trying to like the Summit.  The many videos I've listened to remind me of the old demonstrations of the Prophet 12.  The two instruments sound similarly dry to my ears, even the complex pads.  I like its size and its pair of outputs, but I'm just not taking to its overall personality.

jg666

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Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2020, 11:05:07 AM »
I've been trying to like the Summit.  The many videos I've listened to remind me of the old demonstrations of the Prophet 12.  The two instruments sound similarly dry to my ears, even the complex pads.  I like its size and its pair of outputs, but I'm just not taking to its overall personality.

For me it didn't offer much over and above what I can already get with the Rev2 having watched a few videos of the Summit. Also, since using the Pro2, I find it annoying when I can't see the envelopes displayed on a screen. It's something that I never missed until I had it, then I can't do without it :)
DSI Prophet Rev2, DSI Pro 2, Moog Sub37, Korg Minilogue, Yamaha MOXF6, Yamaha MODX6, Yamaha Montage6

AlanC

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2020, 11:06:14 AM »
Would anyone consider new FPGA based synths the modern middle ground?  Still solidly digital?  Approaching Analog?

I don't see anything special about the use of FPGA's: they just give the designer a tremendous increase in the amount of computing power available, at the cost of being very difficult to program.

The Peak/Summit and Super 6 are just another twist on the hybrid theme (digital oscillators into an analog signal chain) with the advantage of no aliasing - but then the 002 effectively dodged that problem with its variable sample rate.

The Kyra is a virtual analog.

It'd be nice to see an FPGA used to do something different that's computationally demanding, such as programmable physical modelling as found in Yamaha's VL-1 and VP-1 or Logic's Sculpture.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2020, 12:58:47 PM »
I've been trying to like the Summit.  The many videos I've listened to remind me of the old demonstrations of the Prophet 12.  The two instruments sound similarly dry to my ears, even the complex pads.  I like its size and its pair of outputs, but I'm just not taking to its overall personality.

For me it didn't offer much over and above what I can already get with the Rev2 having watched a few videos of the Summit.

Yeah, totally different creatures, but still, no competition.  The Rev2 sounds like a far superior pad synth.

I'm constantly looking into other instruments, most recently the Korg Prologue.  But it never fails that, after hours of research and trying to mentally force another brand synthesizer into my set up, I realize all over again that the DSI/Sequential instruments alone are perfect for my needs.  Drats!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 01:19:00 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

LPF83

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Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2020, 02:48:46 PM »
Someone will certainly disagree with this, but I would not, however, put the Super 6 or Summit in that category — simply because that super-saw-rave-VA sound is not the core sound of those synths.

To my ears, the Super 6 does sound pretty VA, but in a very good way.  The super saw sound definitely comes to mind when I think of VA synths, but I also think of bands like Depeche Mode, who have used the Virus for much of their modern work since at least the mid 2000s.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

LoboLives

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2020, 03:08:34 PM »
Doesn’t sound like a REV2 to me....

https://youtu.be/UvIOuDd0Xgk

LoboLives

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2020, 03:28:21 PM »
I still think it would be interesting to do a recording of various analog synths and to have people try and determine what sound came from which synth. I mean if these things “Have their own sound.” Then it shouldn’t pose a problem. I think it be fun to see how many come up with excuses why they didn't get the answers right. Same with that Prophet 6/Prophet 5 blind test.

At the end of the day though I think it’s the Fender/Gibson/Marshall complex of synths. People go for a brand name over functionality...sometimes even admittedly so.


A Thousand Eyes

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2020, 03:44:37 PM »
There's a massive difference between listening to recordings and actually playing/listening to a synth plugged directly into your monitors. If you don't get that by now, then you have entirely too much gear as is & should sell it all aside from the PX. Although the only thing you really needed was that Kronos you sold...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 04:21:26 PM by A Thousand Eyes »

LPF83

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Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2020, 03:47:26 PM »

The Kyra is a virtual analog.

It'd be nice to see an FPGA used to do something different that's computationally demanding, such as programmable physical modelling as found in Yamaha's VL-1 and VP-1 or Logic's Sculpture.

If you've ever owned a Virus Ti2, you know how quickly complex sounds and FX can rob the polyphony.  I haven't had my hands on a Kyra, but supposedly this is the big advantage of FPGA -- tons of polyphony and FX with no voice stealing (128 voices, 8 part multitimbral and 9 effects per part) and does all that while always running cool.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

LPF83

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Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2020, 03:52:40 PM »
I still think it would be interesting to do a recording of various analog synths and to have people try and determine what sound came from which synth. I mean if these things “Have their own sound.” Then it shouldn’t pose a problem. I think it be fun to see how many come up with excuses why they didn't get the answers right. Same with that Prophet 6/Prophet 5 blind test.

At the end of the day though I think it’s the Fender/Gibson/Marshall complex of synths. People go for a brand name over functionality...sometimes even admittedly so.

The problem with the comparisons I've seen so far, for example with VST vs real analog emulation, is that they are biased toward finding sounds on the underdog synth that are good examples for comparison, or comparing each within a certain range of sound design, etc....  rather than pushing both synths to their absolutely limits and judging based on that.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2020, 03:56:57 PM »
I don't care what sounds like a what.  I agree that it's pointless to buy a synthesizer primarily because it sounds just like another synthesizer, just as it's pointless to prefer an analogue synthesizer if a digital one sounds just as good.  I'm not interested in emulating other instruments or recreating the past for the past's sake.  I just know what sounds good to my ears. 

I thought the Prophet 12 sounded terrible for years, all from listening to YouTube videos that seemed determined to break the sound barrier.  Then I had one on loan and figured out how to warm it up, and ended up loving the thing.  The same was true, in fact, with the Poly Evolver.  All the old videos emphasized the most brutally caustic sounds and effects, and so I couldn't stand the thing.  Then I bought one (entirely as an act of trust in DSI) and realized it had a very wide sonic breadth, and could be as warm as melted butter. 

Perhaps the same is true, now, with the Summit and Prologue demonstrations.  Perhaps they're largely unreliable for discerning the true character of the instruments.  But that's the only option for many of us, who don't live near synth-carrying music stores.

It's difficult making the big decision for or against a synthesizer based on YouTube videos alone.  And because it seems as if most synthesists are especially interested in wild, shrill, or complex noises and sound effects, it's doubly difficult to make such a musical judgment.  But whether it's a brand new release or a re-issue of an old classic, it's all the same to me: does it sound good or not?  I might be as happy with a Novation Summit as with an ARP 2600.  All that matters to me is its pure musical charm and potential.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 04:14:38 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

LoboLives

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2020, 05:23:59 PM »
There's a massive difference between listening to recordings and actually playing/listening to a synth plugged directly into your monitors. If you don't get that by now, then you have entirely too much gear as is & should sell it all aside from the PX. Although the only thing you really needed was that Kronos you sold...

If people want to play with dinosaurs then more power to them.

A Thousand Eyes

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2020, 05:32:07 PM »
I take it back, you should sell that Triassic PX and invest in some cutting edge soft synths with 40,000 parameters.  ;)

LoboLives

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2020, 05:35:10 PM »
I take it back, you should sell that Triassic PX and invest in some cutting edge soft synths with 40,000 parameters.  ;)

I’m sorry I hurt your feelings.

A Thousand Eyes

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2020, 05:42:22 PM »
How can you hurt my feelings when I'm simply following your logic?

LoboLives

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2020, 06:09:45 PM »
How can you hurt my feelings when I'm simply following your logic?

I’m a hypocrite deal with it.

Shaw

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Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2020, 06:13:14 PM »
Ok fellas... have a beer and be friends.


Remember: drummers are the real enemy.
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa
| Linnstrument | Suhr Custom Modern | Mayones Jaba Custom | Godin Multiac Nylon | Roland TD-50 | Synergy Guitar Amps | Eventide Effects Galore |

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2020, 06:56:52 PM »
I've deleted a long, rambling accounting of my "journey" with digital synths and instead will say, while I'm certainly no purist, I'm very much an analog kid. The new P5 is a dream come true, and I'm saying this as someone with a rev 3 P5 and two P6s in my life. But... and this is partly aimed at Sacred S, I can easily suggest that discovering the world of downloadable User oscs on the Prologue has given that synth a whole new life in my world. It's a gorgeous analog synth - it can do freaky and weird, but it can also do utterly beautiful. Granted, the (digital) User oscs I've downloaded are meant to sound analog, as names like "1973" and "Waves" give away, but I think this is the synth that (mostly) puts my worrying about analog vs digital aside (humans, eh!). I play the Prologue, I think, "Yep, sounds great." I'll program it as much with the User oscs now as with the "normal" oscs. All that and the fact that the Prologue and my P6 sound quite natural together - one doesn't sound like the other much to my ears, but they're pals for sure.

LoboLives

Re: Analog / Digital Purists?
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2020, 07:14:57 PM »
I've deleted a long, rambling accounting of my "journey" with digital synths and instead will say, while I'm certainly no purist, I'm very much an analog kid. The new P5 is a dream come true, and I'm saying this as someone with a rev 3 P5 and two P6s in my life. But... and this is partly aimed at Sacred S, I can easily suggest that discovering the world of downloadable User oscs on the Prologue has given that synth a whole new life in my world. It's a gorgeous analog synth - it can do freaky and weird, but it can also do utterly beautiful. Granted, the (digital) User oscs I've downloaded are meant to sound analog, as names like "1973" and "Waves" give away, but I think this is the synth that (mostly) puts my worrying about analog vs digital aside (humans, eh!). I play the Prologue, I think, "Yep, sounds great." I'll program it as much with the User oscs now as with the "normal" oscs. All that and the fact that the Prologue and my P6 sound quite natural together - one doesn't sound like the other much to my ears, but they're pals for sure.

I’m tempted to get a 16 voice Prologue and have it modified to only have 8 voices. I was talking with a shop here and they said it would be pretty easy to do.