The New Sequential Prophet-5 and Prophet-10

[AlainHubert]

Am I the only person who is worried about the seemingly lack of quality control here with this release? I've held off from getting a ProphetX due to a seeing quite a few issues involving units being bricked during updates etc and now a whole batch of the new synth has gone out with this problem.

Sequential, formerly DSI, is a small company, with limited resources and staff. And despite having had some early problems with my Prophet REV2, I must say that the dedication of the support team in resolving potential issues for customers is top-notch. Even if their quality control is perhaps not always the case. And with this virus thing, it most probably complicates things a bit.

If this new P5 was really a faithful clone of the original circuits, I wouldn't hesistate to get one. But this "reworked" and "revised" board doesn't inspire me confidence.

My big question is this: why would any electronics engineer at Sequential decide to put unnecessary capacitors to dull out the sound on the PCB to begin with? What were they supposed to try to filter/mask out?

[LPF83]

If this new P5 was really a faithful clone of the original circuits, I wouldn't hesistate to get one. But this "reworked" and "revised" board doesn't inspire me confidence.

Do you mean the revised board in the most recent video Paul Dither posted doesn't sound enough like the vintage P5 to you?  Or do you just mean from a quality perspective?

My big question is this: why would any electronics engineer at Sequential decide to put unnecessary capacitors to dull out the sound on the PCB to begin with? What were they supposed to try to filter/mask out?

I wondered the same thing.  The facetious side of me wanted to believe that they secretly were planning to sell a lesser quality board to Berhringer for the discount market, and someone at manufacturing got the two board versions confused

[AlainHubert]

Do you mean the revised board in the most recent video Paul Dither posted doesn't sound enough like the vintage P5 to you?  Or do you just mean from a quality perspective?

I mean from a technical standpoint. A clone is a clone. Anything else is just a diluted copy.

...The facetious side of me wanted to believe that they secretly were planning to sell a lesser quality board to Berhringer for the discount market, and someone at manufacturing got the two board versions confused

That's a good one! 

[LoboLives]

If this new P5 was really a faithful clone of the original circuits, I wouldn't hesistate to get one. But this "reworked" and "revised" board doesn't inspire me confidence.

Do you mean the revised board in the most recent video Paul Dither posted doesn't sound enough like the vintage P5 to you?  Or do you just mean from a quality perspective?

My big question is this: why would any electronics engineer at Sequential decide to put unnecessary capacitors to dull out the sound on the PCB to begin with? What were they supposed to try to filter/mask out?

I wondered the same thing.  The facetious side of me wanted to believe that they secretly were planning to sell a lesser quality board to Berhringer for the discount market, and someone at manufacturing got the two board versions confused

Brings up a good point. If Sequential trademarked the new Prophet-5/10....could Uli even still do a clone?

[AlainHubert]

Brings up a good point. If Sequential trademarked the new Prophet-5/10....could Uli even still do a clone?

Obviously, he cannot clone this new P5 rev 4. But I think he could perhaps clone the original P5 up to rev 3?
 

[Paul Dither]

 

[LPF83]

If this new P5 was really a faithful clone of the original circuits, I wouldn't hesistate to get one. But this "reworked" and "revised" board doesn't inspire me confidence.

Do you mean the revised board in the most recent video Paul Dither posted doesn't sound enough like the vintage P5 to you?  Or do you just mean from a quality perspective?

My big question is this: why would any electronics engineer at Sequential decide to put unnecessary capacitors to dull out the sound on the PCB to begin with? What were they supposed to try to filter/mask out?

I wondered the same thing.  The facetious side of me wanted to believe that they secretly were planning to sell a lesser quality board to Berhringer for the discount market, and someone at manufacturing got the two board versions confused

Brings up a good point. If Sequential trademarked the new Prophet-5/10....could Uli even still do a clone?

The trademark would only cover the actual name Prophet 5, etc., meaning as long as it's labeled something slightly different (for example the UBXa versus OBXa), to the best of my knowledge, it's all fair game.  If the P5 did something specific that is a clearly defined proprietary invention, that invention could be patented.

For example, when Bob Moog started out, he only patented the ladder filter -- because it was the only thing he believed could be reasonably claimed/defended as invented by him (and of course that patent has expired, as all patents eventually do).  Everything else he was doing with electronics was fair game, that someone else was already doing (or at least that's what he believed at the time).

[Shaw]

Just learned that my P5 may ship Nov. 6th.  Somebody is giddy!

[Paul Dither]

Just learned that my P5 may ship Nov. 6th.  Somebody is giddy!

Great news! I'm excited for you.

[eisblau]

So after removing the redundant parts, will the updated Rev4 be a little cheaper then?

[Christopher]

So after removing the redundant parts, will the updated Rev4 be a little cheaper then?

Sure thing.
2 * $0.00878 = $0.01756 cheaper:
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/kemet/C0402C152K5RACTU/411031?s=N4IgTCBcDaIAQGEAMAWJYEEYCsYDS2ASgIIIAqAqnCALoC%2BQA
 

[AlainHubert]

I've always been curious to know how companies like Sequential, and Moog Music, set their selling price point for a given item? 

[Shaw]

I've always been curious to know how companies like Sequential, and Moog Music, set their selling price point for a given item? 

Somewhere between market value and [the cost of production + the cost of business (employees, property leasing, taxes, etc.)]

[markwilkins]

I've always been curious to know how companies like Sequential, and Moog Music, set their selling price point for a given item? 

I doubt that it is overly complex. Figure out the cost of the parts and the labor and expected support costs and then factor in the R&D costs and add a bit to try to make a small profit. I have a hard time imagining anyone at sequential is getting rich on this (although I do hope that Dave himself is doing really well). Even if the profit on a Prophet (sorry) is 50% of total selling price, there isn’t a whole lot of money to spread around after that considering the relatively low volume.

I think that the selling price is a screaming deal (for those of us purchasing these) and quite a bit below the true value. For example, the R&D costs are probably way undervalued (total uneducated and baseless guess on my part); I bet that Dave Smith spent many hours working on this that are not factored into the true cost. I also think that those of us buying these instruments have a somewhat warped sense of value because of mass produced items such as phones, which are absolute marvels of technology but assembled by workers who don’t get a terribly good paycheck.

But, boy oh boy, I really do want a P5. I am super happy that companies like Sequential exist and make these types of wonderful instruments.

[AlainHubert]

After carefully re-watching the P5 rev4 (capacitors removed) versus P5 vintage video posted earlier here, I'm still not convinced that this new P5 is matching the venerable P5 in timbre on identical patches. I could easily afford it but, no sale for me. Sorry. I want the punch, sizzle, and bite of the original, which is unfortunately missing from this latest revision. I certainly looks the part, but not the content.

[markwilkins]

After carefully re-watching the P5 rev4 (capacitors removed) versus P5 vintage video posted earlier here, I'm still not convinced that this new P5 is matching the venerable P5 in timbre on identical patches. I could easily afford it but, no sale for me. Sorry. I want the punch, sizzle, and bite of the original, which is unfortunately missing from this latest revision. I certainly looks the part, but not the content.

Hehe. Sounds like a future P5 owner putting off the inevitable.

[Shaw]

After carefully re-watching the P5 rev4 (capacitors removed) versus P5 vintage video posted earlier here, I'm still not convinced that this new P5 is matching the venerable P5 in timbre on identical patches. I could easily afford it but, no sale for me. Sorry. I want the punch, sizzle, and bite of the original, which is unfortunately missing from this latest revision. I certainly looks the part, but not the content.

Someone from Sequential stated that his Rev 3 (which the owner admitted to having serviced by a 3rd party) was noticeably brighter than the several Vintage Rev 3s they used when developing the Rev 4.


At any rate, I see no reason to accept his particular Rev 3 is the “gold standard”.  Especially when I hear Rev 4 demos that sound phenomenal.

[AlainHubert]

Someone from Sequential stated that his Rev 3 (which the owner admitted to having serviced by a 3rd party) was noticeably brighter than the several Vintage Rev 3s they used when developing the Rev 4.

Well, I guess my Prophet 5 rev 3 that I had back in 2009 must have been "noticeably brighter" too!   

[jg666]

For me, if you like the sound of the synth and it does everything you want it to then it doesn't matter if there are miniscule differences in sound. I know we're all different and all have different hearing and likes and dislikes so everyone has to decide for themselves.

In my case, I get that certain tingle when I hear a synth that I like Actually the Moog Matriarch gave me that feeling straight away but I've not bought it due to me being too lazy to play about with patching and then not being able to save my patch in memory.

[Sacred Synthesis]

This is the trap that a company will fall into if it persists in releasing re-issues: the product will be judged, not by a standard of quality, but by a standard of comparison.  There's a happy freedom in creating only newly designed instruments, and equally in buying them.  No nagging references to the past.