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MIDI note on/off swapped

MIDI note on/off swapped
« on: July 09, 2020, 02:21:31 AM »
So this happened: my Pro 3 started sending "Note Off" when I press a key, and "Note On" when I release. A power cycle fixed it, and I don't know how it got into that state, but that was strange.

Remark: it's nice to see someone using Note Off, instead of Note On with V=0 (this is my first DSI/Sequential instrument with a keyboard, maybe they all do it). I'm sure this will cause something to be incompatible when I use the Pro 3 as a controller, because MIDI, but it seems to be working fine with the instruments I have in my studio.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 02:54:02 AM by sockmonkey »

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 02:37:03 AM »
Mine did the same this morning. I was on the third OS, Just updated to the latest OS after this, so have no idea if it will fix this bug. Very weird. Also last night at a mates the filter at one point stopped working and found that the mod slot for filter modulation on the sequencer had been turned all the closed with out me adding any modulation. Few little bugs floating around.

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 02:55:41 AM »
Mine did the same this morning. I was on the third OS, Just updated to the latest OS after this, so have no idea if it will fix this bug. Very weird. Also last night at a mates the filter at one point stopped working and found that the mod slot for filter modulation on the sequencer had been turned all the closed with out me adding any modulation. Few little bugs floating around.

Thanks for responding. Weird, right? I am running the latest beta OS.

Just to be 100% clear, the internal synth engine was responding to Note On when I pressed a key, it was just MIDI output which was inverted (via USB), which I could observe using MIDI Monitor on my macOS machine.

Moho

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 06:59:54 AM »
Happened to me too on OS 1.0.3.26, also lost keyboard tracking of pitch once, solved by changing presets.
These things seem totally random as I couldn't get them to repeat, hard to get a fix if you can't reproduce.
I was hoping 1.0.3.45 would be more stable, but the OS is still in beta so more improvements to come.  :)

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2020, 01:45:22 PM »
I also ran into this behavior randomly. Power cycle would fix it. I haven't experienced since the most recent firmware update though.

The only bug i've experienced since new firmware was the touch strip acting funky, only lighting up the first three lights and not moving past that. Again, power cycling fixed it.

Kosmikos

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Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 01:58:49 AM »
Quote
Remark: it's nice to see someone using Note Off, instead of Note On with V=0 (this is my first DSI/Sequential instrument with a keyboard, maybe they all do it). I'm sure this will cause something to be incompatible when I use the Pro 3 as a controller, because MIDI, but it seems to be working fine with the instruments I have in my studio.
This might explain why I couldn’t get the Pro3 sequencer to slide my TD-3 when playing 100% note duration, whereas my Digitakt does this fine.

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2020, 05:22:16 AM »
This keeps happening to me, although I still haven't figured out what causes it. But it just happened twice in the space of 15 minutes, totally aggravating.

Pym

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2020, 08:24:48 AM »
If anyone has this happen again...

Does it happen over USB only or hardware MIDI as well?
Does it stop if you switch presets?
Reset globals?
Unplug/plug back in USB cable?

If you have a MIDI dump of the period before and after it switches that would help me narrow it down too. Not sure if it's the hardware keyboard thread or the MIDI subsystem
Dave Smith Instruments

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2020, 08:28:17 AM »
If anyone has this happen again...

Does it happen over USB only or hardware MIDI as well?
Does it stop if you switch presets?
Reset globals?
Unplug/plug back in USB cable?

If you have a MIDI dump of the period before and after it switches that would help me narrow it down too. Not sure if it's the hardware keyboard thread or the MIDI subsystem

I'll check this next week when I get back to my studio. Switching presets, starting/stopping the sequencer or arpeggiator, mashing as many keys as possible doesn't help. I'll check out the other stuff asap.

Thanks!

Pym

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2020, 05:49:15 PM »
Thanks, that's helpful. Trying to figure out which subsystem the bug is in still

Does the voice trigger on key down? Or key up?

Does the voice trigger on midi note on if you send it without a loopback?

If anyone has this happen again...

Does it happen over USB only or hardware MIDI as well?
Does it stop if you switch presets?
Reset globals?
Unplug/plug back in USB cable?

If you have a MIDI dump of the period before and after it switches that would help me narrow it down too. Not sure if it's the hardware keyboard thread or the MIDI subsystem

I'll check this next week when I get back to my studio. Switching presets, starting/stopping the sequencer or arpeggiator, mashing as many keys as possible doesn't help. I'll check out the other stuff asap.

Thanks!
Dave Smith Instruments

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2020, 09:23:23 PM »
Thanks, that's helpful. Trying to figure out which subsystem the bug is in still

Does the voice trigger on key down? Or key up?

Does the voice trigger on midi note on if you send it without a loopback?

If anyone has this happen again...

Does it happen over USB only or hardware MIDI as well?
Does it stop if you switch presets?
Reset globals?
Unplug/plug back in USB cable?

If you have a MIDI dump of the period before and after it switches that would help me narrow it down too. Not sure if it's the hardware keyboard thread or the MIDI subsystem

I'll check this next week when I get back to my studio. Switching presets, starting/stopping the sequencer or arpeggiator, mashing as many keys as possible doesn't help. I'll check out the other stuff asap.

Thanks!

The local voice triggers on key down. Only outgoing MIDI is affected. I do have a feeling that the behavior is triggered when using a software editor or sequencer which is (as you suggest) looping MIDI back to the hardware. But I will need to explore that theory more when I am back in my studio.


Pym

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2020, 11:20:57 PM »
Yeah my suspicion right now is that the MIDI is being inverted for whatever reason, I just don't know if it's happening due to the key mode or due to MIDI subsystem

Try changing key modes as well to see if that changes the behavior

Thanks, that's helpful. Trying to figure out which subsystem the bug is in still

Does the voice trigger on key down? Or key up?

Does the voice trigger on midi note on if you send it without a loopback?

If anyone has this happen again...

Does it happen over USB only or hardware MIDI as well?
Does it stop if you switch presets?
Reset globals?
Unplug/plug back in USB cable?

If you have a MIDI dump of the period before and after it switches that would help me narrow it down too. Not sure if it's the hardware keyboard thread or the MIDI subsystem

I'll check this next week when I get back to my studio. Switching presets, starting/stopping the sequencer or arpeggiator, mashing as many keys as possible doesn't help. I'll check out the other stuff asap.

Thanks!

The local voice triggers on key down. Only outgoing MIDI is affected. I do have a feeling that the behavior is triggered when using a software editor or sequencer which is (as you suggest) looping MIDI back to the hardware. But I will need to explore that theory more when I am back in my studio.
Dave Smith Instruments

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2020, 02:26:37 AM »
Yeah my suspicion right now is that the MIDI is being inverted for whatever reason, I just don't know if it's happening due to the key mode or due to MIDI subsystem

Try changing key modes as well to see if that changes the behavior

Thanks, that's helpful. Trying to figure out which subsystem the bug is in still

Does the voice trigger on key down? Or key up?

Does the voice trigger on midi note on if you send it without a loopback?

If anyone has this happen again...

Does it happen over USB only or hardware MIDI as well?
Does it stop if you switch presets?
Reset globals?
Unplug/plug back in USB cable?

If you have a MIDI dump of the period before and after it switches that would help me narrow it down too. Not sure if it's the hardware keyboard thread or the MIDI subsystem

I'll check this next week when I get back to my studio. Switching presets, starting/stopping the sequencer or arpeggiator, mashing as many keys as possible doesn't help. I'll check out the other stuff asap.

Thanks!

The local voice triggers on key down. Only outgoing MIDI is affected. I do have a feeling that the behavior is triggered when using a software editor or sequencer which is (as you suggest) looping MIDI back to the hardware. But I will need to explore that theory more when I am back in my studio.

OK, I was able to reproduce it. It appears to be related to sysex requests. Here's a trace from my MIDI monitor:

Code: [Select]
From HST 2 Note On 1 90 2F 24
To HST 2 Note On 1 90 2F 24
From HST 2 Note On 1 90 33 46
To HST 2 Note On 1 90 33 46
From HST 2 Note On 1 90 39 2F
To HST 2 Note On 1 90 39 2F
To HST 2 SysEx F0 01 31 06 F7
From HST 2 Note On 1 90 36 47
To HST 2 Note On 1 90 36 47
From HST 2 SysEx F0 01 31 03 38 02 03 01 3C 3C 3C 02 00 02 02 00 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 01 01…
From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 2F 00
To HST 2 Note Off 1 80 2F 00
From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 36 00
To HST 2 Note Off 1 80 36 00
From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 39 00
To HST 2 Note Off 1 80 39 00
From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 33 00
To HST 2 Note Off 1 80 33 00
From HST 2 Note On 1 90 39 4E
To HST 2 Note On 1 90 39 4E
From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 39 00
To HST 2 Note Off 1 80 39 00
From HST 2 Note On 1 90 2D 09
To HST 2 Note On 1 90 2D 09

In general, the Pro 3 responds immediately to sysex, but sometimes there's a little bit of a lag between the request and the response. If a note on arrives in that gap, it will cause the note on/off to reverse. I haven't been able to determine whether it happens in the absence of the DAW loopback yet, I'll keep trying with the DAW turned off.

Changing key modes doesn't make a difference AFAICT.

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2020, 02:34:32 AM »
I could reproduce without the DAW loopback, although the MIDI monitor output doesn't indicate that a note event arrived between sysex request and response (although I was requesting and receiving responses). Paraphonic mode was enabled.

Here's another trace:

Code: [Select]
21:13:29.596 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 4D <- still good
21:13:29.731 From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 35 00
0 To HST 2 SysEx F0 01 31 06 F7
21:13:30.974 From HST 2 SysEx F0 01 31 03 38 02 03 01 3C 3C 3C 02 00 02 02 00 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 01 01…
21:13:31.169 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 57 <- check the timestamp: noteoff comes immediately, and from then on the noteon/off is reversed
21:13:31.169 From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 35 00
21:13:31.230 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 61
21:13:36.846 From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 35 00
21:13:36.941 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 38
21:13:37.046 From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 35 00
21:13:37.133 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 3C
21:13:37.214 From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 35 00
21:13:37.307 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 43
21:13:37.378 From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 35 00
21:13:37.494 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 4C
21:13:41.705 From HST 2 Note Off 1 80 35 00
21:13:42.020 From HST 2 Note On 1 90 35 4E

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2020, 04:24:46 AM »
and another fun observation: when the instrument gets in this state, NRPN transmission is also jumbled. Here's changing duration in a paraphonic sequence:

Code: [Select]
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 26 5F
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 63 08
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 62 6B
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 06 00

whoops!

Pym

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2020, 01:00:21 PM »
Very useful information, thanks!!

and another fun observation: when the instrument gets in this state, NRPN transmission is also jumbled. Here's changing duration in a paraphonic sequence:

Code: [Select]
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 26 5F
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 63 08
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 62 6B
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 06 00

whoops!
Dave Smith Instruments

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2020, 01:01:52 PM »
Very useful information, thanks!!

and another fun observation: when the instrument gets in this state, NRPN transmission is also jumbled. Here's changing duration in a paraphonic sequence:

Code: [Select]
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 26 5F
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 63 08
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 62 6B
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 06 00

whoops!

My pleasure. Note that the Value MSB at the top is the MSB from the _previous_ change. The "current" MSB will be output with the following change.

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2020, 07:06:00 AM »
Very useful information, thanks!!

and another fun observation: when the instrument gets in this state, NRPN transmission is also jumbled. Here's changing duration in a paraphonic sequence:

Code: [Select]
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 26 5F
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 63 08
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 62 6B
23:07:12.007 From HST 2 Control 1 B0 06 00

whoops!

I've been following up with support, but wanted to follow up here, as well. In the meantime, I can reproduce without sysex communication, without paraphonic mode, without much of anything, just by turning on the synth and mashing keys for a while.

Yesterday, I was able to reverse the problem by unplugging & replugging the USB cable. After doing that, I couldn't make the problem re-occur. After doing a power cycle, I could make it happen within a few minutes again. That was great, but... it didn't work today.

Today, the reversal also affected the internal sound, which never happened before. USB cable plugstuff didn't have any effect.

In any case, there's something wrong and it's truly annoying. By all means reach out if there's anything I can do to help you reproduce the issue.

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2020, 08:03:16 AM »
Happens to me a lot as well.

USB mode, sending MIDI to my DAW with NRPN, local off, Pro 3 is not receiving any messages.

Let me know if you need anything to help narrow it down.

Pym

Re: MIDI note on/off swapped
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2020, 11:58:31 AM »
We are aware of it and working hard to figure it out

We have concluded that it is not USB specific, but the additional processor load causes the bug to be triggered more often. We think we've found a good test scenario and are trying to figure it out. It's one of those bugs where there simply isn't an easy way to track it down until you see it in person. Now that we hit that stage hopefully we'll nail it soon
Dave Smith Instruments