Amplification in band rehearsal room

Amplification in band rehearsal room
« on: June 04, 2020, 11:32:11 AM »
Dear forum members,

I use my rev2 in a live band situation all the time. I am the band's bass player on it, and use the rev2's second layer to play leads in addition.
I did some searching on this forum, but did not really find an answer to my specific question yet: What kind of speakers would be the best to work with? I've been playing over guitar speakers (to much distortion of the sound), a keyboard amp (KC350, too weak in the bass and I also do not really like the sound), and finally a rather old Yamaha pod-powered PA system. The latter solution is my best up to now. This is partly because, unlike the other options, it is a stereo amp that I use in the rehearsal room, but also because it offers some headspace, which is particularly important to be present with bass. What I do not like about the PA is its quality and its size (it's old and big)

So, I want to buy something new, definitely stereo. Would you recommend investing in a good PA? Active speakers/monitors? A second KC350? I would be very interested to know your thoughts on speaker size and whether 2X12 has more bass than 1X15?

Thanks in advance!

Re: Amplification in band rehearsal room
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2020, 03:50:44 PM »
Yeah, I'd go with FRFR type PA speakers.  (full range, flat response)

I've got a pair of Electro Voice ZLX-12 Powered Speakers that can keep up with live guitar/bass amps no problem... they can be used like stage wedges, or pole mounted.   They have 15 inch speakers as well, but honestly, that would probably be overkill.

Plus they are great general purpose PA speakers for small to medium sized crowds.   I use them with Axe-FX2 / Axe-FX3 as well, and they sound great... plenty of low end punch and headroom to spare.   

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jok3r

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Re: Amplification in band rehearsal room
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2020, 09:09:09 AM »
I think it depends on how regularly and long-term your band project is organized.

I always played in projects for at least 5 years and we had a PA and mixer for the whole band (sometimes even drums) in the rehearsal room, so I don't need my own monitors (well, sometimes before the season starts, we already play with In-Ears in the rehearsal room, to get used to it since we need it on stage... but that has nothing to do with amplification). So the levels are always mixed properly and I don't have to compete with guitar amps or the like... That is in my opinion the best way to go. Another advantage is, that you can hear how your patches sound in a real-world situation. Most bigger PAs don't sound as Hi-Fi as your studio-monitors or headphones (they are big and loud and you never now what the sound engineer is doing to you ;-) ). You can hear how your presets sound on a rather "shitty" system. If they sound good there as well, you can go on stage without any worries ;-)

For some special acts and rather spontaneous stuff, I have a big cheap full range active speaker, that suits all my needs, at least in an improvised rehearsal room. The speaker has pretty much power in the lower frequencies, so I think it would even do for bass playing. I don't know where you're living, but if you know Thomann and live somewhere to where they deliver, you can look, for their "the box PA 502 A" (don't know if links to online shops are allowed). The only problem is: it's rather heavy with about 30kg. I have this speaker for over 10 years now, and it still works withou any problems.

If you really need stereo in the rehearsal room, you could also buy two of the smaller and cheaper PA 302 A speakers.

But if your band plays together for several years, I would always prefer the first solution.



Prophet Rev2, Moog Matriarch, Novation Peak, Arturia DrumBrute Impact, Korg Kronos 2 88, Kurzweil PC 361, Yamaha S90ES

Re: Amplification in band rehearsal room
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2020, 12:01:38 PM »
For sure, most holistic solution is to have everyone mixed together with common monitor/pa/headphone/in-ear system in rehearsal.   In my situation, the drummer plays a Roland V-Drum set, and guitars/bass are run through Axe-FX units, so its a no brainer... also, everyone plays better because you can hear where you're sitting in the mix and respond with more dynamics.   

But I've been in situations with live drums and 2x12 / 4x10s...  Keys/Synth through a FRFR 12 inch stereo PA speakers can definitely keep up in SPL...  everybody will just be loosing hearing a few years early ;)   I think I've already rounded my hearing off at 11khz.

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
Sound Sets:
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Re: Amplification in band rehearsal room
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2020, 08:28:01 PM »
It really depends upon how big of a room you are playing.  Big room requires a larger bass speaker to throw the bass signal.  Small room requires smaller bass speakers.  The bass wave completes in a shorter distance with a smaller speaker.  So you actually have more bass response with a small speaker in a small room.

So, the general equation is - big room = big speakers, small room = small speakers.  Big speakers in a small room are counterproductive.

I usually play small to mid-sized rooms.   So, I have JBL EON-610's.  The 10" speaker fully covers the small room and manages ok in the mid-sized room.  They are powered.  So you don't need an amp.  About $300/speaker.  1000 watts, bluetooth capable.

If you decide to plug in more than the Rev 2, then you should probably get a small mixer, 4-8 channels.  Lots of good small mixers from Yamaha, Mackie, etc.  Looking at about $200 for a good quality one.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 5, Rev 4; Prophet 08; Pro 2; Prophet 12 module; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Cubase DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Amplification in band rehearsal room
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 01:08:46 AM »
Big room requires a larger bass speaker to throw the bass signal.  Small room requires smaller bass speakers.  The bass wave completes in a shorter distance with a smaller speaker.  So you actually have more bass response with a small speaker in a small room.

I think the "large speaker is bad for small room" is mostly myth...   A 60 hertz bass tone is gonna be about 19 feet wavelength whether its coming out of a 4in speaker, or a 12in speaker.   The main difference with larger speaker cones is that they can generally go lower in frequency, while maintaining a flatter response. 

There is a whole topic about speaker placement and room modes that has a huge effect on sound in a given rehearsal space / venue -- from constructive/deconstructive interference of multiple speakers and wall reflections... but that's a separate topic.

But I don't think there's any downside to choosing a 12in speaker over a 10in or 8in speaker, assuming other variables are the same.   You're just gonna get a wider/lower frequency range with flatter response, and ability to push SPL levels a bit further without distortion, if you wanna bring them out gigging. 

With my EV ZLX-12s, I usually don't run them at more than about 30% volume when rehearsing/jamming with friends, and the bass is loud, tight and clear (both synth bass and bass guitar through AxeFX).   You can always add a separate subwoofer if you really feel a need to get into Pink Floyd sub bass territory, under 40hz.   

You can probably get by fine with 10in speakers if you just wanna keep up with SPL in rehearsals, but I feel like 12in is a better investment, just in case you want to use them for small/medium gigs or as a main PA mixdown in rehearsals.


 

OB-X8, Pro 3, P6, Rev2, Take 5, 3rd Wave, Deepmind, PolyBrute, Sub 37
Sound Sets:
https://sounddesign.sellfy.store/
Free Patches:
https://www.PresetPatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral

Re: Amplification in band rehearsal room
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2020, 03:27:51 AM »
Hi guys, thank you so much for your responses. I was already leaning towards buying a pair of 12 inch active speakers (saw a pretty good demo-model-deal of 2 HK linear 5 112). Your input convinced me these are probably a good choice. In our medium-sized rehearsal room this might very well be overkill, but the demo models are the same price as two non-demo 10-inchers. (So, sorry jdt9517, I follow my own physics intuitive logic and creativespiral's input)

Indeed, an in ear system would be the best solution, that might be a next step. However, for now, my band members feel they are too young for that :)





maxter

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Re: Amplification in band rehearsal room
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2020, 08:43:05 AM »
Great decision, imo!

I really had nothing to add after creativespirals post earlier, but I'd rather have a bigger (even overkill) amp running at say 30-40% level, than cranking a smaller one at 80%, generally speaking. No scientific arguments, it just sounds better to my ears, less "pushy" with more dynamic space or something? Depends on the particular amps of course, but that's my impression. I wonder at what range amps perform their best, generally? -as I assume they don't perform evenly from 0-100%.

I've always had a soft spot for running synths through old jazz type amps, they often have a clear and distinct, while very WARM, sound. They're quite small, so they only work well in some scenarios.

I rarely ever crank anything above 50-60% level at last amp stages, be it the living room amp or anything else. (Input levels on the other hand...) If I need more level, I'll get another amp.
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