The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

Tempest price increase / tempest future

Stoss

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Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2020, 11:48:07 AM »
When it comes to the Tempest, I believe there was only one visionary, and that was Roger Linn. That is not to say there was not a lot of smart people in the room contributing great ideas and putting in tons of time to make the Tempest what it is. I think many aspects of the Tempest were made great by what DSI brought to the table, but really, the Tempest is a combination of Roger’s vision for what a performance oriented drum machine should be combined with the analog synthesis of DSI.

I think it is pretty easy to argue that DSI/Sequential lacks the focus and ability to carry forward the platform of the Tempest without the help of a visionary like Roger. The evidence for that is laid down in the many years worth of beta testing and firmware updates that took place over the years.

In regards to focus, you can look no further than the implementation of extraneous features like the compressor envelope. How much effort and precious memory was wasted on a feature that was never requested? Why were specified features not made to work while this side interest became so important? As the years went on, The lack of direct involvement on Roger’s part allowed the Tempest to drift off course.

In regards to ability, I don’t know how else to explain why the Tempest still has broken and missing features. One of my most memorable moments was after I first purchased the Tempest. It wasn’t working correctly so Carson directed me to the forum to download the latest beta (and so the torture began). I installed the beta, and then all of a sudden I was getting these weird flams as I was performing and recording real-time on the pads. I let them know about the problem. To my surprise, the programmer tried so hard to get the user base to accept it as “expected behavior”. I honestly couldn’t believe it, especially after dropping such a large amount of money on this piece of equipment. Of course they eventually fixed that issue, but the amount of pressing it took for them to do it was really strange. As I do think DSI wanted to do the right thing then, and wants to now, I think the only explanation for not correcting things is either an inability to see them as incorrect or an inability to do anything about them.

Last year Chris hopped on this very forum to proclaim that he has learned a lot and could do “10x better now”. Man, I am all for that. In fact, that is the perfect reason to call it the Tempest X rather than the Tempest II. But honestly, everything I have witnessed and experienced myself has me sitting with popcorn and doing a little observing before I go and drop thousands on anything with the DSI/Sequential badge affixed to it.

OceanMachine

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2020, 01:43:24 PM »
If anything, I was giving Roger his dues. Both Dave and Roger are visionaries in general (not strictly in regards to the Tempest) and therefore have strong opinions. They've even come out and said there were arguments. Roger on the other hand can now go off unrestrained and give us perhaps something revolutionary. We'll just have to wait and see how this new expressive "three dimensional" touch control pans out, especially for "making beats." It's not like the Linnstrument has exactly taken the world by storm... As for the hypothetical Tempest II, if it's used as a platform to build off of rather than scrapping it for something entirely new, then I would hope many lessons were indeed learned.

This entire argument has gone off in a direction of people feeling the need to air their grievances, which is fine. Personally, I've got plenty more grievances with all the other well known drum machines on the market that I've briefly owned, which is a good chunk of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDotr1lmNwI

Stoss

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Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2020, 02:40:41 PM »
It seems to me that you were not present for any of the beta development or testing phases of the Tempest. You really have to have gone through that process to come out on the other side with a clear understanding of why a 2nd generation Tempest would not only be an insult to those that dedicated many many hours trying to drag DSI towards a reasonable place, but also why a 2nd generation Tempest would not be afforded the faith that a trustworthy company deserves.

OceanMachine

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2020, 04:38:55 PM »
I've not once tried to argue that anyone should have faith. Nor do you know how long I've been going on about how DSI/Sequential is behind in the OS game and should seriously think of hiring help in that regard. On the flip side, you're also completely unaware of the many times I've dealt with DSI customer service who were always extremely helpful to me throughout the years and have fixed products with zero hassle, including, but not limited to the Tempest. You don't know, for example, the nightmares I've had dealing with faulty new products from Elektron, where replacement parts were repeatedly promised and never sent or when they had my new Rytm for months in limbo in their LA repair office. How they then sent it back to the wrong address and only by the goodness of the receiver it was returned to me.  Never mind the countless other technical issues and lousy customer support with Elektron products and many other companies' products that I've dealt with.

But you guys have at it with your narrative.

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2020, 04:42:23 PM »
[...] just as you're likely to piss and moan about the Tempest till the end of time. Although unlike you, I'm not here to point the finger. If we're to take Roger at his word...

Excuse me?  A little respect please.  If you like your Tempest as it is now, then you're welcome.

See, I don't have to take Roger at his word; we had each other on speed-dial for a year-and-a-half.  He asked me for my help in fixing this mess, and I gave it, fully and completely, to the benefit of this community and the betterment of the Tempest.

Sequential singlehandedly messed this one up, and dragged Roger's good name through the mud with them, never mind the burden to their customers.  And you're damn right that I will never forget it.  I dedicated nearly a half-decade to setting this straight, on behalf of the hardworking musicians (myself included) who spent over 2 grand of their hard-earned on a box that still has crippling bugs.  I did my best, on my time, unpaid, and with the best of intentions... What did you do?

Sure, every now and then I take a moment to cynically remind the newbies around here, all bright-eyed and naive, to not have so much faith DSI's glowing reputation.  You bet I do.  That's karma.  You, on the other hand, presumed the worst of the one guy around here actually looking out for you, and for what?  Because I laughed at your misguided optimism?  Again, you're welcome.

Cheers!

Stoss

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Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2020, 05:13:00 PM »
I've not once tried to argue that anyone should have faith. Nor do you know how long I've been going on about how DSI/Sequential is behind in the OS game and should seriously think of hiring help in that regard. On the flip side, you're also completely unaware of the many times I've dealt with DSI customer service who were always extremely helpful to me throughout the years and have fixed products with zero hassle, including, but not limited to the Tempest. You don't know, for example, the nightmares I've had dealing with faulty new products from Elektron, where replacement parts were repeatedly promised and never sent or when they had my new Rytm for months in limbo in their LA repair office. How they then sent it back to the wrong address and only by the goodness of the receiver it was returned to me.  Never mind the countless other technical issues and lousy customer support with Elektron products and many other companies' products that I've dealt with.

But you guys have at it with your narrative.

I don't want to continue this competition with you... so let me point out where we agree...

DSI/Sequential has great customer service! Just like you, I've had wonderful experiences with the customer service side of DSI/Sequential. Carson is excellent and a great human being. I've sent my Tempest in for repairs, I've received board swaps, I've ordered parts, and I've emailed extensively. Everything was respectful and wonderful.

Elektron has their issues. I've been through three to four serial numbers and gone from the Rytm MKI to the MKII as Elektron has attempted to repair issues, multiple times over the years, most recently for a stretch of over 6 months. They even shipped something I ordered to the wrong address as well... and by the goodness of the receiver I was able to receive it. They have been generous, but unbelievably slow.

With that out of the way, I think the only place we disagree revolves around the experience that I do not think we share. I have been using the Tempest for many years and contributed greatly to the testing and reporting of the many, many bugs while trying to help make it as great as it can be.

So, may I ask you... How long have you owned your Tempest? Did you contribute to the testing that got it to where it is today? Were you on the old forum contributing back then? Do we share this experience?

OceanMachine

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2020, 12:19:16 AM »
the newbies
Next time you go to type about putting n00bs in their place, just read it back to yourself first. Feel free to search for someone continually pissing and moaning about why categories are important from before this current handle ... Or don't as it makes no difference.

I'm well aware of the trials and tribulations of the Tempest and I've owned three of them at different points. Also, congratulations that Roger is your BFF and you deserve a medal for your supreme cleverness. Again, if you want to keep taking what I'm saying as some slight to Roger, all I can say at this point is that perhaps your biases might be playing into it... Roger is off doing his own thing and best to him, sincerely. Lastly, good for you if it's your mission in life that a Tempest II never sees the light of day.




Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2020, 04:01:27 AM »
With that out of the way, I think the only place we disagree revolves around the experience that I do not think we share. I have been using the Tempest for many years and contributed greatly to the testing and reporting of the many, many bugs while trying to help make it as great as it can be.

I think this is the point really. Some of us have been around here for aeons and are therefore pretty jaded and cynical.

Let's not forget it took literally years of complaints to DSI which eventually culminated in an online petition and a personal appeal to Roger (who was by all accounts unaware of the mess that had his name on it) before DSI would even implement basic features that had been in the manual from day one. DSI had no focus (as mentioned above, implementing arbitrary features that no-one requested just because it piqued the firmware programmer's interest) and went off polishing shiny new toys instead.

@JohnTheSavage, salty as he may be, was instrumental in the process of getting the Tempest to the workable state (in my opinion) it's in today so, if you enjoy your Tempest as much as I do, it's in no small part down to his efforts as well the significant contribution from the others here who went through those years of pain!
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2020, 04:45:42 AM »
Ye John is the man and he is who he is..He’s contribution for Tempest was invaluable!
Actually if you talk with him to a more personal level as i do he’s one great guy!

sofine

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Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2020, 05:23:23 AM »
Ye John is the man and he is who he is..He’s contribution for Tempest was invaluable!
Actually if you talk with him to a more personal level as i do he’s one great guy!

@JohnTheSavage, salty as he may be, was instrumental in the process of getting the Tempest to the workable state (in my opinion) it's in today so, if you enjoy your Tempest as much as I do, it's in no small part down to his efforts as well the significant contribution from the others here who went through those years of pain!

100% these things. I have skirted with several music instrument manufacturers for various beta testing / bug finding / UI feedback issues over the years and the only thing I know for certain from those experiences is that it takes a lot of time / focus and knowledge to identify, log and present findings and ideas in a structured and sensible manner, even more so with a complex beast like the Tempest. So, having been there from the very early days with the Tempest, I appreciate John's efforts. Chapeau!


Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2020, 05:12:31 PM »
❤️

OceanMachine

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2020, 10:33:11 PM »
I think this is the point really. Some of us have been around here for aeons and are therefore pretty jaded and cynical.

Let's not forget it took literally years of complaints to DSI which eventually culminated in an online petition and a personal appeal to Roger (who was by all accounts unaware of the mess that had his name on it) before DSI would even implement basic features that had been in the manual from day one. DSI had no focus (as mentioned above, implementing arbitrary features that no-one requested just because it piqued the firmware programmer's interest) and went off polishing shiny new toys instead.

The funny thing is, I've been here for many years (again, before this current handle) and am keenly aware of all this. Also, I don't expect the majority of posters to click on the hyperlinks I left, but they were left there as documentation that I already got the memo. Had JtS flat-out stated his mind to begin with and not tried to pull rank, we wouldn't be having this entire roundabout argument that was frankly based of a false assumption that I was same "bright-eyed newbie" here to attack Roger. People using my innocuous comments to launch their stalking-horse based off that projection were completely misguided. My whole point is that it would be a real shame if all that toil (by anyone who contributed) couldn't be used as a building block for a more fully realized version and we know Roger is off doing his own thing, which by all accounts is a fresh take. I hope Roger is successful in his next outing, even though I personally would need to see how it turned out before jumping onboard. At the same time, I realize some folks are already completely put off at this point by even the mere mention of the Tempest II; although having gone through a good chunk of the competition, I'm not one of those people. Any "optimism" I have that's part in dept to JtS, Stoss or anyone else that helped is not unappreciated by me. I'm not sure how I could make it more clear than that...

even if they weren't entirely relegated

The only thing I wish is that there was a little more effort put towards major OS updates, which would also extend the public interest in the products. Releasing a synth yearly for such a small company severely limits their resources to do so.

There's certainly no shortage of users that bemoan Sequential's comparative lack in the update department.

The same thing was said about the Tempest, so perhaps some forward thinking in building machines with more headroom is required. It would be nice to see some regular substantial updates. Now that synths are so easily update-able, support of these machines throughout their lifespan will help maintain interest. I know the same could have been said about the Tempest's image had the same been the case.

Edit: P.S. It's not my intention to attack Sequential either or to act like I have any insider information besides what was made public/been part of my personal experience.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:01:31 AM by A Thousand Eyes »

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2020, 09:50:39 AM »
as a Tempest owner i have contradicting feelings about this tbh.
On the one hand as someone pointed out a few posts up there, the process to get to the final OS was such a pain that a new tempest would be kind of insulting.
On the other hand, i still fell the Tempest as a machine that got almost there. i mean, look at that prophet x synth engine. wouldn't 8 o those voices, with sample import/manipulation and effects, look great on a new tempest or what?
midi implementation never got really fully implemented on the curret-discontinued one though, lack of memory for coding was the excuse (although that doesn't explain why the OS took 7 years to get to the final version...)
to me sample import, effects and proper midi implementation are the things that are lacking on the current tempest. the last one i don't know sequential can do without Roger Linn involved.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 10:07:36 AM by sata_fortuna »

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2020, 02:06:50 PM »
Holy drama, Batman!

I pre-ordered my Tempest. It was disappointing and frustrating when I got it, and I shelved it for about a year. Maybe more? It was around the time the TR-8 was announced that I dusted off my Tempest for real and learned how to use it. It's incredible, it's still my desert island synth.

Shipping an unfinished product is never a good idea. Not having the resources to bring it up to speed post-launch is - well, let's face it, that's the world of tech. When you're taking on a complex, nuanced, niche project, the best you can do is estimate what effort it's going to take - but it's an estimation, not a prophecy.

This provided fuel for one of the most insufferably entitled communities I've ever had the displeasure of engaging with. I'm out there recording music and playing shows with something that, if the forums at the time were to be believed, was crippled beyond use. You still see that language today, in this very thread!

John, good on you for wringing out that last set of bugs & features. It's a bummer that it took such a coordinated campaign to make it happen. And the community feedback in the years after launch helped improve the Tempest in ways that went beyond the features in the original manual, even while failing for so long to deliver on so many other promised features.

But I never let that get in the way of using the damn thing. It was literally the most expensive piece of musical equipment I'd ever bought - might still be, now that I think of it - and it helped me find my voice, musically. It's too bad that so many people had the trouble they did, I don't mean to discount that.

At the same, speaking as a software developer who's worked on incredibly complicated, niche applications, I can't imagine how burned out Pym was after years of returning to the same project, receiving a nonstop barrage of overwrought criticism the entire time. I'm astonished he didn't quit.

If Sequential were to follow the Tempest up, I'm guessing the OS would be a rewrite from the ground up. It would be running on entirely different chips, and given the space limitations and the rigidity around additional features, not to mention the cryptic sysex, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the code for the Tempest was a steps away from Assembly language, if that. Even if you were able to more directly port code to updated firmware, reusable code isn't like lego blocks, it's like an organ transplant.

Personally, what I'd want in a Tempest successor would likely go against what would make a more successful machine: give me more! Per-voice comp & distortion. Global verb & delay with individual per-voice sends! Polyphonic MIDI sequence tracks for outboard gear! And yes, the ability to load samples! But no... most people can't manage the Tempest as-is.

It's too bad that upon revisiting this community, there's still so much dick swinging and posturing. "Some of us have been around here for aeons and are therefore pretty jaded and cynical." As I said at the start of this post, I've been here from the start of the Tempest saga - if you're that jaded and cynical, that's on you.

Stoss

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Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2020, 10:02:39 PM »
...

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2020, 10:19:36 AM »
It's too bad that upon revisiting this community, there's still so much dick swinging and posturing. "Some of us have been around here for aeons and are therefore pretty jaded and cynical." As I said at the start of this post, I've been here from the start of the Tempest saga - if you're that jaded and cynical, that's on you.

Slightly weird rant there, mate.  ;D

That was a quote from me and, if you read my other posts, you'll see that on the whole I'm full of praise for the Tempest and am a vocal advocate for it both on here and on other forums. I don't think there's another synth available that competes, even almost ten years later.

Also, like you, I've spent time learning it in and out. I've almost finished a videogame on which all the FX were done on the Tempest, that's over 250 individual analog sounds designed from scratch. I am well acquainted with its strong points as well as its flaws.

What my 'jaded and cynical' comment referred to was my attitude to any marketing spiel that comes out of DSI. Much as I love the Tempest (and I do love it) the fact remains that there's still important features in the V1 manual that haven't been implemented and it took an online petition plus lobbying Roger Linn for them to implement many more. I do not trust a company that would launch a product without knowing for sure whether they can deliver it as specced. The fact that the Tempest was a difficult platform to develop for is irrelevant - they chose it!

If that opinion constitutes 'dick-swinging and posturing', well, so be it...
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2020, 12:15:06 AM »
I believe it will increase in price, since it will become a Future classic through the years. Even if a new Tempest II comes out, that might change the game $ for a couple of months or some years; but after that I believe its price will always go up slowly.
 I Love mine... every week has gotten better with it for the last 2 years. Theres so much to explore and try.  I even Grabbed a second one last week, might sound crazy though I don't regret at all.
The best Drum machine off all AFTER the classic 909 808, this has Been and still is a new skool drum man... ahead of its time completely .
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 12:18:16 AM by Ackord »

Re: Tempest price increase / tempest future
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2020, 01:56:35 AM »
So true man!Lucky for all of us ;)
Every day is a new day for me since grabbing mine in 2012!

I believe it will increase in price, since it will become a Future classic through the years. Even if a new Tempest II comes out, that might change the game $ for a couple of months or some years; but after that I believe its price will always go up slowly.
 I Love mine... every week has gotten better with it for the last 2 years. Theres so much to explore and try.  I even Grabbed a second one last week, might sound crazy though I don't regret at all.
The best Drum machine off all AFTER the classic 909 808, this has Been and still is a new skool drum man... ahead of its time completely .