The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

Hardware feature change dreams

Razmo

  • ***
  • 2142
  • I am shadow...
    • Kaleidoscopic Artworks
Hardware feature change dreams
« on: January 30, 2020, 01:27:15 PM »
As the title implies, this is just a thought topic... Debating what we would have liked to change about the PRO3 if we could... It is not a thread for debating software feature requests, this sort of topic will surely come soon enough when we get to work with the OS.

I am making this thread mainly to talk about what your dream PRO3 would have been could you change something in the hardware.

One thing i have a hard time figuring out is how the integrated eurorack features will ever benefit me, especially because I have no intention of getting a eurorack synth or even a semi modular one... I feel like I am paying for a lot of features i will never really use... So I thought about how i would change the hardware to make me use it.

I found out that I can actually very easily use the 4 ins and outs plus gate, but it lacks some more i/o to make it all work the way I would want to.

The features seems like they were more made to control outboard eurorack gear or let outboard control the PRO3... This makes it impossible to do what I want, namely to integrate modules INTO the PRO3 signal path at various places in the chain... The PRO3 simply lack a bunch of properly placed insert points in the signal flow so you can tap its audio at various points and route them back in after external processing... Things like:

1. An insert post each oscillator and noise
2. An insert pre filter
3. An insert post filter
4. An insert post FX with a stereo return

More inserts may be useful but these are the essential... With these I could process each oscillator externally in an individual fashion and route the processed signal right back in the signal flow. Pre filter inserts would allow me to use eurorack filters to replace or add to PRO3s own filters in serial... A really cool feature I would like... Post filter inserts could be used to insert monophonic eurorack FX and other strange things to the overall sound before stereo FX, and pre FX inserts would allow to patch in stereo FX without having to swap the output cords of PRO3 all the time.

That is what I would have loved to see added to the PRO3 hardware, and the 4 ins and outs could still be used to controll the connected modules with EGs, LFOs etc.

I would have loved to gather a bunch of different analog filters to add to PRO3 when I wanted to, or things like waveshapers, distortions and other monophonic processing to throw in on individual oscillators or the combined sound post or even pre filter.

Currently I do not see how I could do this with the PRO3... And since inserts are basically just some normalled plugs in the chain, perhaps with a bit of extra protection curcuitry, this cannot be the most expensive add on?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 01:39:36 PM by Razmo »
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 03:42:51 PM »
Audio inputs at various points would be nice--something I'd hoped for on the Dominion 1 then the MatrixBrute then the Pro 3. I'm guessing it's not necessarily purely a question of cost but one of cost vs value. In other words, is it worth adding if only 3% of users want it?

But the Pro 3's 3 oscillators and noise can be routed out as a CV source at audio rate which you could mangle externally and then feed back in pre-filter. Or did you mean something else?

Razmo

  • ***
  • 2142
  • I am shadow...
    • Kaleidoscopic Artworks
Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 04:28:24 PM »
Audio inputs at various points would be nice--something I'd hoped for on the Dominion 1 then the MatrixBrute then the Pro 3. I'm guessing it's not necessarily purely a question of cost but one of cost vs value. In other words, is it worth adding if only 3% of users want it?

But the Pro 3's 3 oscillators and noise can be routed out as a CV source at audio rate which you could mangle externally and then feed back in pre-filter. Or did you mean something else?

Yes, I could route the oscillators out via mod matrix and process them... It is getting the audio back in that seem impossible... If I route the oscillators out like that, and route them back in via ext. In, then I would need to be able to turn the oscillators volume down, but still get the audio out the cvs, otherwize I would get a blend af original and processed sound... I do not know what happens at the CV outs if I lower the volumes of the oscillators, but I would assume the went down in volume with the oscillator level controls.

If I could just patch in a eurorack filter someway, I would have much more use of the cv functionality... Even if it was only filters... Would be really fun to try out ms20, arp and other eurorack filters with the PRO3 especially because you can use the 4 outs to control the given filter from the PRO3 itself.

If i have to usr 3 of four outs on getting the oscillators out, then there will only be 1 cv left to control anything on the module which is a real shame.

An alternative way could be to route the main out to the filter, but then you would need stereo filters and eventually also bypass the fx engine.

Would be so much easier if there were a few insert jacks on the back for this.

If more than 3% want this we will not know if anyone does not request it... This was the hope I had with this thread... That people debate hardware wishes instead of only os update requests, so that maybe Sequential might get a better picture about what people might want in the next PRO4 or whatever...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 04:34:24 PM by Razmo »
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Razmo

  • ***
  • 2142
  • I am shadow...
    • Kaleidoscopic Artworks
Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2020, 04:45:29 PM »
Also do not forget that for the mod matrix to be able to route any source to a cv, there has to be a DAC before every cv out, otherwise how could it route out digital sources?... This hints me that maybe the two anallgue oscillators may be converted to digital first, before being able to send it out the cv thru the DAC... The digital oscillator would not loose anything, but oscillators routed out may suffer from a DAC conversion... And no one currently know the sample rate of the mod matrix, and no one has answered my qurstion about it... If we imagine it running lower than 44.1khz, like on PROPHET 12, then audio quality could potentially degrade too.

So I would personally wish for real analog inserts at the mentioned points to avoid having audio go thru the mod matrix.
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2020, 07:32:23 PM »
Audio inputs at various points would be nice--something I'd hoped for on the Dominion 1 then the MatrixBrute then the Pro 3. I'm guessing it's not necessarily purely a question of cost but one of cost vs value. In other words, is it worth adding if only 3% of users want it?

But the Pro 3's 3 oscillators and noise can be routed out as a CV source at audio rate which you could mangle externally and then feed back in pre-filter. Or did you mean something else?

Yes, I could route the oscillators out via mod matrix and process them... It is getting the audio back in that seem impossible... If I route the oscillators out like that, and route them back in via ext. In, then I would need to be able to turn the oscillators volume down, but still get the audio out the cvs, otherwize I would get a blend af original and processed sound... I do not know what happens at the CV outs if I lower the volumes of the oscillators, but I would assume the went down in volume with the oscillator level controls.

If I could just patch in a eurorack filter someway, I would have much more use of the cv functionality... Even if it was only filters... Would be really fun to try out ms20, arp and other eurorack filters with the PRO3 especially because you can use the 4 outs to control the given filter from the PRO3 itself.

If i have to usr 3 of four outs on getting the oscillators out, then there will only be 1 cv left to control anything on the module which is a real shame.

An alternative way could be to route the main out to the filter, but then you would need stereo filters and eventually also bypass the fx engine.

Would be so much easier if there were a few insert jacks on the back for this.

If more than 3% want this we will not know if anyone does not request it... This was the hope I had with this thread... That people debate hardware wishes instead of only os update requests, so that maybe Sequential might get a better picture about what people might want in the next PRO4 or whatever...
I'm guessing the CV is independent of the volume due to the Osc signal being multiplied/split so you can turn down the mixer level without affecting the CV out. I could be wrong but it would be silly if that weren't the case. Guess I'll find out when mine arrives. But yeah more outs would have been nice. I understand why they didn't do independent outs per function but 8 outs would have made using the sequencer with Euro so much funner!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 07:35:32 PM by guyaguy »

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2020, 05:17:28 PM »
Audio inputs at various points would be nice--something I'd hoped for on the Dominion 1 then the MatrixBrute then the Pro 3. I'm guessing it's not necessarily purely a question of cost but one of cost vs value. In other words, is it worth adding if only 3% of users want it?

But the Pro 3's 3 oscillators and noise can be routed out as a CV source at audio rate which you could mangle externally and then feed back in pre-filter. Or did you mean something else?

Yes, I could route the oscillators out via mod matrix and process them... It is getting the audio back in that seem impossible... If I route the oscillators out like that, and route them back in via ext. In, then I would need to be able to turn the oscillators volume down, but still get the audio out the cvs, otherwize I would get a blend af original and processed sound... I do not know what happens at the CV outs if I lower the volumes of the oscillators, but I would assume the went down in volume with the oscillator level controls.

If I could just patch in a eurorack filter someway, I would have much more use of the cv functionality... Even if it was only filters... Would be really fun to try out ms20, arp and other eurorack filters with the PRO3 especially because you can use the 4 outs to control the given filter from the PRO3 itself.

If i have to usr 3 of four outs on getting the oscillators out, then there will only be 1 cv left to control anything on the module which is a real shame.

An alternative way could be to route the main out to the filter, but then you would need stereo filters and eventually also bypass the fx engine.

Would be so much easier if there were a few insert jacks on the back for this.

If more than 3% want this we will not know if anyone does not request it... This was the hope I had with this thread... That people debate hardware wishes instead of only os update requests, so that maybe Sequential might get a better picture about what people might want in the next PRO4 or whatever...

I just tested this, and it works. I routed all 3 oscillators to CV1 (using the matrix to mix their levels) out to a modular system, into an Arp 4075 filter, P3 gate controlling an external envelope generator that controlled the Arp filter, routed modwheel out to another CV out so I could sweep the filter, then audio back from the Arp filter back into the Pro 3 via the external input. I turned the mix of the oscillators down on the Pro 3, cranked up the ext input knob.  I just used external modular mixing for balancing things outside the Pro 3. I also added a Quadnic into the mix just for fun, turning the Pro 3 into a 7 oscillator monster. You can also route each oscillator to a separate CV out for separate processing (mind explosion here) and still have one CV left for 1v/octave control of external gear. OR, just use the remaining 3 CVs to control things.

No mods needed, it does it already. I couldn't hear any aliasing by doing things this way, but setting levels is tricky.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 05:20:23 PM by drew_n »

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2020, 09:02:28 PM »


I just tested this, and it works. I routed all 3 oscillators to CV1 (using the matrix to mix their levels) out to a modular system, into an Arp 4075 filter, P3 gate controlling an external envelope generator that controlled the Arp filter, routed modwheel out to another CV out so I could sweep the filter, then audio back from the Arp filter back into the Pro 3 via the external input. I turned the mix of the oscillators down on the Pro 3, cranked up the ext input knob.  I just used external modular mixing for balancing things outside the Pro 3. I also added a Quadnic into the mix just for fun, turning the Pro 3 into a 7 oscillator monster. You can also route each oscillator to a separate CV out for separate processing (mind explosion here) and still have one CV left for 1v/octave control of external gear. OR, just use the remaining 3 CVs to control things.

No mods needed, it does it already. I couldn't hear any aliasing by doing things this way, but setting levels is tricky.
[/quote]
Thanks for checking and good to hear! I setting levels tricky depending on the patch or is it just finding the level and using that as a template/init patch?

Razmo

  • ***
  • 2142
  • I am shadow...
    • Kaleidoscopic Artworks
Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2020, 12:06:56 AM »
Audio inputs at various points would be nice--something I'd hoped for on the Dominion 1 then the MatrixBrute then the Pro 3. I'm guessing it's not necessarily purely a question of cost but one of cost vs value. In other words, is it worth adding if only 3% of users want it?

But the Pro 3's 3 oscillators and noise can be routed out as a CV source at audio rate which you could mangle externally and then feed back in pre-filter. Or did you mean something else?

Yes, I could route the oscillators out via mod matrix and process them... It is getting the audio back in that seem impossible... If I route the oscillators out like that, and route them back in via ext. In, then I would need to be able to turn the oscillators volume down, but still get the audio out the cvs, otherwize I would get a blend af original and processed sound... I do not know what happens at the CV outs if I lower the volumes of the oscillators, but I would assume the went down in volume with the oscillator level controls.

If I could just patch in a eurorack filter someway, I would have much more use of the cv functionality... Even if it was only filters... Would be really fun to try out ms20, arp and other eurorack filters with the PRO3 especially because you can use the 4 outs to control the given filter from the PRO3 itself.

If i have to usr 3 of four outs on getting the oscillators out, then there will only be 1 cv left to control anything on the module which is a real shame.

An alternative way could be to route the main out to the filter, but then you would need stereo filters and eventually also bypass the fx engine.

Would be so much easier if there were a few insert jacks on the back for this.

If more than 3% want this we will not know if anyone does not request it... This was the hope I had with this thread... That people debate hardware wishes instead of only os update requests, so that maybe Sequential might get a better picture about what people might want in the next PRO4 or whatever...

I just tested this, and it works. I routed all 3 oscillators to CV1 (using the matrix to mix their levels) out to a modular system, into an Arp 4075 filter, P3 gate controlling an external envelope generator that controlled the Arp filter, routed modwheel out to another CV out so I could sweep the filter, then audio back from the Arp filter back into the Pro 3 via the external input. I turned the mix of the oscillators down on the Pro 3, cranked up the ext input knob.  I just used external modular mixing for balancing things outside the Pro 3. I also added a Quadnic into the mix just for fun, turning the Pro 3 into a 7 oscillator monster. You can also route each oscillator to a separate CV out for separate processing (mind explosion here) and still have one CV left for 1v/octave control of external gear. OR, just use the remaining 3 CVs to control things.

No mods needed, it does it already. I couldn't hear any aliasing by doing things this way, but setting levels is tricky.

Thank you for testing this! ... This suddenly made my PRO3 CV features much more useable :)

Unfortunately that also means I'm probably going to run down the Eurorack rabbit hole  ??? :o

...but still it would've made things a lot easier with a few insert points on the PRO3... still think Sequential ought to think about it for future stuff with CV features... without the four ins and outs it makes no sense though, because you would not be able to control the filter cutoff wich is crucial.

I'm very happy to see though, that all three oscillator outputs can be mixed by sending them to the same CV out... that saves outs which is amazing. I also think that modules as waveshapers, Ringmodulators etc. could be fun to mess around with.

About the audio quality, I'm not worried when it's just the PRO3 osillators going out sine they will probably never really have too high frequency material that could cause aliasing... on Prophet 12 that happened mostly when FMing or AMing since these audio rate tricks cause sidebands that cause the aliasing... this can also be fixed in eurorack by doing Ringmod or Amplitude Modulation there instead if you wish...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 12:37:54 AM by Razmo »
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2020, 10:46:25 AM »
Edited for brevity...
Thanks for checking and good to hear! I setting levels tricky depending on the patch or is it just finding the level and using that as a template/init patch?
[/quote]
Tricky, meaning not terribly difficult but requiring attention.
Level setting outside the Pro 3 in the Euro/Frac mess I hooked it up to was a bit tricky. The Pro 3 itself is tolerant of some pretty wide ranging material. In some cases it made sense to dial back the blend of all 3 oscillators so it wouldn't overdrive the outboard modular in a nasty way.

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2020, 11:17:04 AM »
Edited for brevity...
Thanks for checking and good to hear! I setting levels tricky depending on the patch or is it just finding the level and using that as a template/init patch?
Tricky, meaning not terribly difficult but requiring attention.
Level setting outside the Pro 3 in the Euro/Frac mess I hooked it up to was a bit tricky. The Pro 3 itself is tolerant of some pretty wide ranging material. In some cases it made sense to dial back the blend of all 3 oscillators so it wouldn't overdrive the outboard modular in a nasty way.
[/quote]

That makes sense. Euro audio levels are super hot so usually take some boosting going in and attenuation coming out. Iím guessing Frac as well.

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2020, 04:02:34 PM »

I'm very happy to see though, that all three oscillator outputs can be mixed by sending them to the same CV out... that saves outs which is amazing. I also think that modules as waveshapers, Ringmodulators etc. could be fun to mess around with.

I mean if we're going to talk dream synths...Add a wavefolder and provide through-zero FM and AM on the synth and I wouldn't even need to use CV out for audio!

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2020, 04:29:57 PM »

I'm very happy to see though, that all three oscillator outputs can be mixed by sending them to the same CV out... that saves outs which is amazing. I also think that modules as waveshapers, Ringmodulators etc. could be fun to mess around with.

I mean if we're going to talk dream synths...Add a wavefolder and provide through-zero FM and AM on the synth and I wouldn't even need to use CV out for audio!

It can already do some insane modulation--any oscillator can modulate its own or any other oscillator's frequency or waveshape or level. It's a lot. It's just a nice bonus that you can run it out to a frequency shifter and back in!

Re: Hardware feature change dreams
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2020, 05:20:44 PM »

I'm very happy to see though, that all three oscillator outputs can be mixed by sending them to the same CV out... that saves outs which is amazing. I also think that modules as waveshapers, Ringmodulators etc. could be fun to mess around with.

I mean if we're going to talk dream synths...Add a wavefolder and provide through-zero FM and AM on the synth and I wouldn't even need to use CV out for audio!

It can already do some insane modulation--any oscillator can modulate its own or any other oscillator's frequency or waveshape or level. It's a lot. It's just a nice bonus that you can run it out to a frequency shifter and back in!
Yep I'm looking forward to trying out the audio rate waveshaping! But I have a special love for wave folders so it would have been great having one on the Pro-2, especially in combination with audio rate modulation.