Velocity Control of the VCA's

Hector Space · « **on:** March 09, 2016, 11:23:59 AM »

To me, a pianist, velocity control is very important. It's why I didn't buy an P5 back in 82, so I'm very glad to see the P6 with both Velocity and Aftertouch. But the velocity control applied to the VCA's is extreme on the P6. Regardless of what setting I select the control signal drives the output to zero or pretty near at low velocities. In other words the dynamic range is too wide to be of any practical use. Currently velocity control isn't anywhere near what a piano would do, or indeed most synths. Especially when playing softly e.g. during a legato piece. It results in notes more or less disappearing and forces you to play more aggressively. Really one of the velocity settings should provide an offset or a more compressed scale for the VCA so as to limit quietness of the lowest volume. Please! $:-\$

ohmstudiste · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2016, 01:24:43 PM »

I agree the velocity response in the P6 is very dissapointing. I'm not comparing to piano but even compared to all the other synth I own that do velocity to filter and/or vca this one is the worst.
I tried every possible velocity curve but nothing really usuable. It's a shame because you can programm some very nice EP sounds with that beast and the polyphony is begging me to play it like a rhodes !

bruno_z · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2016, 06:39:50 AM »

Same there, totally agree, you have to hammer things, hard to play subtle. We need some kind of offset control. I imagine that adding more velocity curves with various offsets wouldn't be too taxing.
The perfect solution would have been to have a pot instead of the Velocity button, which would be the starting offset at 0 velocity, then volume would be stretched to 100% for full velocity. This way, pot full right means always 100% of the VCA volume, like having velocity off, full left would be like today when toggling velocity and a mid-way would give 50% volume at 0 velocity, for instance. Ideally that is a value that you want to save with the patch, not a global value.
Maybe the volume pedal could have a mode where it acts as the offset for the VCA velocity, could work.

Fuseball · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2016, 08:46:48 AM »

I agree. I don't think I've used the velocity to VCA button once in creating my own sounds. On the P'08, for example, I always have at least 40% VCA envelope regardless of velocity and then the other 60% in this case controlled by velocity. Wish I could do something like this on the P-6. I like your solution a lot.

The same situation is true with the velocity to filter envelope buttons, but it's less critical there and you can use the poly-mod filter envelope amount for a set envelope to filter and the velocity-controlled one on top of that if you choose.

Hector Space · « **Reply #4 on:** March 12, 2016, 05:48:04 AM »

P6 velocity response is an issue. It currently does not work properly. None of the options improve the fundamental problem that low velocity values produce too little signal or volume.

I have conducted some velocity offset tests to determine what is required to fix the issue.
I used an Apple iOS App: Midi Bridge (Audeonic) running on an iPad to remodel the velocity values produced by the P6. This was done by turning P6 Midi local off. Midi Bridge receives the P6 Midi data stream, adjusts the velocity values received and transmits them back to the P6. For these tests I used the P6 default velocity scale of 0.

Please see the attached jpeg of the remodeled velocity curve needed to correct the problem. As you'll see the P6 input velocity of 1 needs to be offset by 33 in order to produce usable control. The curve isn't linear either (Although I tried it as a straight line from 33 to 127!) by experimentation I've found that to obtain the best control-ability in the middle ranges the response needs to be more exponential than it currently is. Note that this remodeled response also seems to work fine for the P6 filters. Please see the curve required in the attached jpeg image.

I hope DSI will be able to fix this in an update to the P6 firmware in the near future.

solitud · « **Reply #5 on:** March 12, 2016, 06:16:39 AM »

I agree. VCA Velocity does not feel right. I tried every of the global response curves. None works for me.
It's always: too quit, too quit, boom, full level.

ohmstudiste · « **Reply #6 on:** March 12, 2016, 07:02:59 AM »

Great effort Hector Space.
Did you contact DSI support to show them your result. It should be easy to implement in the next official firmware and would be really nice indeed.

Hector Space · « **Reply #7 on:** March 14, 2016, 01:34:37 PM »

I have contacted DSI support over this issue and supplied them with the result of the tests. I have realised though that I've assumed the problem was with the P6’s velocity encoding. Ie the velocity generated by the P6’s scanner reading the the Fatar keybed contacts. But in reality it is more likely that the problem is with the P6’s sound engine and the way it is configured to respond to velocity data. It will be simple to prove. If playing the P6 from a remote midi keyboard produces the same error on the P6 then it is the P6's response to velocity data that needs adjusting. I will test this tomorrow with my Kurzweil Forte and Roland RD 800.

SpaceVoice · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2016, 02:03:02 PM »

maybe you could make a video example of this ,especially as it pertains to the VCA... My experience has been that velocity curves are rather insensitive.

ohmstudiste · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2016, 12:22:21 PM »

well I just tried with my Nord Electro 3HP (hammer action) and it is working really nice !
Really good response and nice combination with the EPish type of sound.
Actually it opens a whole new dimension of playing the P6. Honnestly.

So guess it's just the way the P6 read the inner keyboard (wich feels very nice btw I think).
I'm sure DSI could work some better curve.

PLEASE !!

Hector Space · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2016, 01:04:26 PM »

Nice One Ohm! ;-)
I've found driving the P6 from my RD800 via midi improved the P6's response. Maybe it's partly to do with the fact that velocity is easier to control from a properly weighted keyboard? I think both the encoder and sound engine on the P6 have a tendency to over extend the dynamic range of the velocity data beyond what can be effectively controlled to added nuance and subtlety to the performance.

The fundamental issue with the P6's velocity response is that it is never the case that a keyboard player would want to play a note with zero or close to zero volume - especially on stage with a live music combo. The main reason for velocity control is to add a range of controllable variation around the notes being played so as to add subtlety and nuance. Velocity control is not a substitute for volume control. This is especially true when using an unweighted or lightly weighted keybed. It is much more difficult to control velocity accurately on such a keybed than on a piano action keybed because there is little or no mechanical feedback. In this situation reducing the range of velocity control to that which is most useful is vital. Unfortunately the current range of adjustment in the P6 global settings doesn't do more than reduce the force needed to play the whole range from 1 to 127. Making it easier to play nothing (close to zero volume) doesn't help and actually makes controlling the P6 from the keybed harder.

Ideally there should be some changes to both the P6 sound engine's response to velocity data and the P6's encoding of velocity from it's keybed. The weakness in both encoder and decoder is the values associated with low velocities. These need to be increased (typically by about 33 in total - maybe half in each part?) in order to make the instrument more playable. This may be more difficult to implement with backward compatibility since there is currently no global setting to adjust the P6's sound engine velocity response. Although providing both would be fab.

I can't help thinking that the problem is really caused by the way velocity control is added to the VCA and Filter cutoff. If I was designing the P6 from scratch I would have applied the available velocity data range (1-127) over a reduced range of control voltage so as to render all velocity values useful.

Using the velocity offset curve like the one I measured greatly improves the useful range of control that is playable from the Prophet 6's keybed. Let’s hope it can be added.

Christian Schenk · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2016, 12:05:23 AM »

Hi!

Just tested my new P6 with my Roland D5 as an external Midi-keyboard. Velocity response of P6 is as it should be over the whole range - from very light to strong keyboard action. On the other side it is impossible to do the same velocity-exercises directly on the P6-keyboard - regardless which keyboard velocity setting (0-3) I use: the outcome is either "Maximum" or "Minimum" but rarely something between.
This is a problem for me as I really like to use velocity as a modulation-source when using the P6-sequencer or the P6-arpeggiator.
DSI pls help!!!

Wolfram · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2016, 07:40:47 AM »

Quote from: chris_dsi on April 11, 2016, 12:05:23 AM

Hi!

Just tested my new P6 with my Roland D5 as an external Midi-keyboard. Velocity response of P6 is as it should be over the whole range - from very light to strong keyboard action. On the other side it is impossible to do the same velocity-exercises directly on the P6-keyboard - regardless which keyboard velocity setting (0-3) I use: the outcome is either "Maximum" or "Minimum" but rarely something between.
This is a problem for me as I really like to use velocity as a modulation-source when using the P6-sequencer or the P6-arpeggiator.
DSI pls help!!!

I have the same Problem! I hope DSI will fix this.

Hector Space · « **Reply #13 on:** April 28, 2016, 04:43:13 AM »

The easiest fix would be to add a new velocity curve that offsets the P6's keyboard output. I did series of tests back in March when I bought the P6. At the request of DSI, I produced a spread sheet with the modified velocity curve and offset values needed. I'm hoping the DSI will add this fix to the Beta software real soon!

extempo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 11, 2016, 10:11:02 AM »

Hi Folks. We added four additional velocity curves to the P6 1.2.12 BETA OS posted yesterday evening. Curves 0-3 remain the original curves, and 4-7 are the newly added ones. Enjoy!

Hector Space · « **Reply #15 on:** May 11, 2016, 04:39:52 PM »

YeeHaarr! (Or similar!) Brilliant! I can't wait to check them out. Nice one DSI Thanks B-)

DJKeys · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2016, 06:29:41 PM »

Just tried them out. Lot of flexibility and range between 1 and 6

Great job!

-dj

mangobob · « **Reply #17 on:** May 12, 2016, 09:10:35 AM »

Thanks Hector Space for your testing efforts and velocity curve calculations.. glad this made it into the OS

Hector Space · « **Reply #18 on:** May 12, 2016, 10:24:01 AM »

Thanks guys! I'd expected DSI leave the original curves for the people that liked them and add new ones for awkward people like me. But this doesn't appear to be the case. After a bit of experimenting I've ended up with either curve 4 or 5. From memory I couldn't use 4 before! Gone back and checked.. Actually it's curve 5 I'm on.. A bit more playing using it and it's grown on me. Nice!

extempo · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2016, 10:48:38 AM »

Hi Hector-

Please see my original post announcing the new curves.

Quote from: extempo on May 11, 2016, 10:11:02 AM

Curves 0-3 remain the original curves, and 4-7 are the newly added ones.

The new curves start at #4.